Balancing Audacity and Humility: Will Parker Anderson on Writing and Purpose

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there is a certain level of audacity you have to have because to be a

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writer, you're not just saying, I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.

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this is cathartic, This is, for me.

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No, as a writer you're saying this is for other people.

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This is, uh, for the pub, for public consumption.

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And there is a level of audacity there.

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But I think along with Audacity is the humility not to take

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yourself too seriously.

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So you need the boldness to put your words out there, and then you need

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the humility for some people to be like, I hate that, uh, that sucks.

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What do a book editor, a pastor, and a writing coach all have in common?

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In today's episode, we're joined by Will Parker Anderson,

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a man who embodies all three.

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As a senior editor at WaterBrook and Mult, no and Imprint, A Penguin

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Random House will has helped shape powerful Christ Center messages

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into books that reach and inspire.

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He's also the founder of the Writer Circle, a growing community and podcast

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that equips nonfiction writers to sharpen their craft and publish with

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purpose, with a passion for the gospel and a deep understanding of story

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will walks alongside authors to ensure their words glorify Christ, connect

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meaningful meaningfully with readers.

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conversation, we explore his unique leadership journey, one that spans

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publishing, pastoring, and platform building and the wisdom he's

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gained helping others tell their

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story.

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Well, will welcome

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to Seek, go

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create.

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Thanks, Tim.

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Great to be here.

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Excited to talk with you.

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Excited, excited

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that you're here too, man.

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I'm really excited about this.

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I've cranked out a number of

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episodes this

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week, kind of batching

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Yeah.

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you are kinda like

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my exclamation point.

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Oh, I'm honored.

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this, we're recording this on a, we're we're, we're recording this

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on a Friday and this is kinda sort of for the listener, but it's a

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little bit for me personally on some

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stuff I'm working on.

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So,

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Perfect.

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we're gonna have fun.

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Will, before we get into that though, uh, would you

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rather

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answer the what do you do,

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you know, kind of

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typical networking thing

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or who are you pick it and

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just start

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answering.

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Yeah.

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Love that question.

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It's a tough one too.

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So I actually transitioned from being a full-time pastor for over

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10 years to being a book editor.

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And that transition brought this question to the fore in my life because suddenly

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what I had been doing pastoring and what I thought I would do forever shifted.

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And so I'm gonna go with, in this season, uh, who I am is probably more important,

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and I would answer that a number of ways.

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I am, uh, a son of God.

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I am a father, a husband, uh, a creative, you know, a, a, a writer.

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And yes, some of those things involve what I do from day to day,

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but those are simple identities.

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you know, you don't go to, to, your point, networking events and say,

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yeah, I'm a, a dad And, a husband.

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Um, you, you talk about your accolades or your resume or whatnot.

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And, um, I think God has been pruning me of my attachment to titles a

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little bit and in a good way, uh, showing me that who I am is important.

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Um, I.

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My calling generally to serve others to love him can be applied in all kinds of

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vocations and projects and businesses.

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Um, and they they may change through the years, but what won't

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change is my status in his eyes.

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And so that's how I'd answer.

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Very

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good.

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All right, so this is the, uh, I'm just gonna go ahead and go

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big with like

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my follow up question.

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Yeah.

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Do you, do you believe that at this time you are walking in steps

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that God created you to walk in?

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Or are you moving towards that, or are you transitioning?

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I, mean, there's a lot of words we could use here.

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What,

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which, which resonates more with you when I, when I

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mention that?

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Yeah.

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I believe

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that God's will is more mysterious than we would like to imagine, and sometimes as.

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No, no, no.

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Will we want simple answers and that's all

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we're gonna answer

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here on seat.

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Go create.

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No,

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I'm sorry.

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I am an editor.

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I, I like to complicate people's lives.

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That's part of my mo

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but God in his wisdom, not only knows where we need to be and what

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we need to do, but he knows how much information we need or don't need.

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And so I think sometimes we play the God card and we say,

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yeah, this is what he has.

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And I, and I was saying that in some seasons of my life, I'm

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going to be a church planter and a pastor that is my calling.

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And there's almost a, um, an accolade you receive when you know your

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lane and you always walk in it.

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And to some God calls them into something early on and they stick with it for

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their whole life, and God bless that.

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But for me, it's just been much more mysterious.

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And so what I like to focus on are the things that are clear.

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Um, what God has made plain.

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And that is to be as present as I can be with what's actually in my hands, my, my

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relationship with my kids, uh, again, as a husband, extending beyond that, my church

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community, even my city, my neighbors.

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Those are the things that I know that I'm called to.

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And I have a ton of fun, vocationally.

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I mean, I love what I do.

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I love building things.

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I love editing, um, you know, good writing and meeting interesting

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people, but I've just learned that, uh, God knows, you know, where I need

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to be in any given season of life.

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And editing has been, in retrospect, just a surprising delight.

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Like, oh wow.

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I didn't see this coming, but now that I'm here, Lord, I can see your wisdom.

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And now that I've walked through some of that pain of letting go of some previous

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dreams or goals, I'm recognizing like, oh wow, this is far more suited for me

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than all those things I thought I wanted.

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And now that I'm here, I'm I'm learning to be increasingly grateful.

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So.

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I, I do love that response.

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And what I'm doing is I'm circling around the question that I'm getting

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to about your role in full-time ministry and sort of transitioning.

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so the follow up I've got is, have you always had that, what I will call this

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is me kind of summarizing what I just heard you say, kind of a peaceful,

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relaxed approach to this journey.

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I use the jour word journey a lot here at See, go create this journey you're on.

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Or was there a time that you were a bit more.

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Intense dogmatic.

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Uh, I, I could throw a lot of words out here about your, I'm doing air

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quotes for those, listening in those watching on YouTube, your calling.

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Um, uh, and, and I wanna preface it with this too.

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I, I, I've been around church world for a while, but I'm a business guy,

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so I was

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saved in business

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and so church has

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always been a little bit, I kind of poke fun at it, truthfully.

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I'm sorry,

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Oh, you're in good company.

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often.

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Um, but I also spent a couple years at a bible school and this whole thing

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around calling, and I was called at the age of three to whatever,

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Yeah.

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Anyway, will always been that relaxed that I just heard you say, or

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was there a time where you were like, man, this is where

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I'm headed.

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I would describe myself as a fool in the hands of a wise God.

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So yeah, when I look at the big milestones life, the, the full weight

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of decisions didn't really land on me.

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that that could be just part of my temperament bit more laid back in

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intuitive and how I move through the world, the versus planned, you know,

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type A. But from choosing the college I attended, which required moving states to

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marrying my wife to different, uh, cities we've lived in to jobs I've taken to, um.

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I just, of course there's moments of stress, moments of wondering, okay, Lord,

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how are you gonna come through here?

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Or, which direction should we go?

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But the overarching theme of my life has been really just a a

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willingness to allow God's spirit to blow us in whatever direction.

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And that doesn't mean we don't have goals and and thoughtful discernment, uh,

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getting welcoming the opinions of men, mentors and thinking through things.

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But ultimately what's happened in the pattern I've noticed is whenever

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something just clicks in is effortless or in a door opens, not every time, but

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most of the time, that's an indication.

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And a, a lot of times every other door will just close and

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then this one door will open.

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And, um, whereas I was beating my head against the wall trying to make

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something else happen, then something I didn't even see coming, you know.

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Pops up and God blesses it.

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I've learned to just trust that.

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I have enough reps now, uh, of seeing God's faithfulness that

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I, I've learned to recognize it.

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And of course, he's not bound to any pattern.

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He can act in our life however he wants.

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But, uh, I think in his kindness, he gives us some nudges.

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Like, remember when I did that And that, and that before

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while I'm doing that again?

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And so you can pry your hands off the, the controls and just trust and

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fully lean into this opportunity.

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And, uh, I would say that's how I've approached most decisions.

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And a quick side story, I used to teach high school seniors theology, and they

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would get so anxious about their college.

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choice in the next season.

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And I would just tell them the story of how I chose my college.

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I was like, guys, I applied to a bunch of colleges, got accepted to some of 'em.

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Didn't make a decision, didn't even really think much about it.

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Then my parents sat me down one day and said, will, you've gotta make a choice.

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So pick a college.

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So I just picked one and I picked one in California because I, I

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thought it'd be fun to live there.

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That was as shallow as my decision making was, and yet God has done extensive

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work in my life in the last 20 plus years here in the state of California.

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The, the friends I've met, I met my wife here, on and on.

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Uh, the ministries I've been a part of, he knew when I was clueless.

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So I hope that would be an encouragement to people

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I, I think it is.

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And one thing I heard you, say earlier, I think I wrote down,

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you know, allow God decisions.

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But I mean, I just was thinking You you really.

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Or allowing God to

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be God

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Hmm.

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us saying we're not God.

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You know, o one of the things I

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recognize is I have a high degree need for control.

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Yeah.

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of people do.

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They want to

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control their

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situation, their lives,

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Yeah,

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probably their spouse, their children, uh, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.

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And I think part of

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the journey of people that are like that, and I think there are many people like

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that in first

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world cultures,

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yeah.

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is being bent, broken, whatever you wanna call it, to realize that we are

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not God and that there is a bigger

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picture beyond

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Hmm.

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beyond us.

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so somewhere along the way you got into ministry and then you have stepped

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away from full-time ministry and.

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My observation is that a lot of people, once they get into the ministry,

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they will often feel as if that is

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the pinnacle of what they

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Hmm.

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be doing for God with God.

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You know, kingdom of God, church world, whatever you wanna call

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I'm always fascinated by when

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people transition away from, and I, I

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don't think

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people are out of ministry,

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Yeah,

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but what, how a lot of people define full-time ministry Tell me more about

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Maybe you could give a little bit of the background of your full-time

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ministry experience and then maybe

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stepping away

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from it.

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absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So I, I was a pastor in various contexts for, you know, 10, 12 years, somewhere

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in there and did all kinds of things.

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I was a youth pastor, was, uh, local outreach pastor, uh, an associate pastor.

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I, I helped plant two different churches here in Orange County and loved it.

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Went through seminary and.

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You know, some people have a dry seminary experience where they

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feel like God becomes a subject and their faith sort of atrophies.

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I had the opposite, thanks to some really dynamic, raw, authentic type professors

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who just sort of broke the mold of what a stiff academic personality should be.

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uh, just very open about their own sin, struggles, their sto, their

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past, and there was a real gratitude and and rawness to their faith.

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That was really transformative for me.

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And I I missed, those days, honestly.

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Uh, I there was a season where I would just tear up any time, uh, worship began

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in, in church, 'cause the words and and the person of Jesus had landed on me

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and I was a lifelong Christian, right?

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I'm like 23, 24, 25, and just having this incredible experience.

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So I love ministry.

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One of the ways that God has, has gifted me, I think, is

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to teach and to communicate.

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And I, and I always love opening the scriptures, being in a room of

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people and getting to share, um, you know, uh, make things clear.

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Um, just get people asking good questions.

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And that's what I really miss about ministry.

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That, and I think sitting with people, I don't get to do that as

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much in the same way as pastoring.

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But the transition happened.

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So I, for four years was on staff at a church here in, uh, Santa Ana, California.

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We planted in 20.

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20, so right in the middle of, uh, the pandemic and everything.

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and um, I, I was a church planning resident there And ended up becoming

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essentially an associate pastor.

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And as the residency was winding down, I came to this fork in the road and

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I had two opportunities before me.

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And this is what I was referring to with doors opening and closing.

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Right?

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One was a church in Portland that was potentially looking for a lead

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pastor for one of their congregations.

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The other was an editing rule where I'm at now at WaterBrook.

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And I had been doing a lot of freelance writing.

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You know, as a church planter, you're not making a lot of money.

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So I would be doing a ton of writing, uh, work, writing copy

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for different organizations.

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And uh, I did a project with the chosen the TV series writing curriculum for them.

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And it was sort of a spinoff from the show.

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They were trying to write curriculum for Gen Z. And so I met another editor there.

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Who had just started at WaterBrook and and said, Hey, will, we're

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hiring, would you maybe wanna apply?

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And so anyways, the church planting thing in Portland didn't work out.

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Uh, they weren't quite ready to bring someone on.

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The timing didn't align.

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And I had a, a hard deadline of when my residency ended, so I needed to find work.

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And the editing job worked out.

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Uh, again, it felt quite effortless.

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Uh, I was hired by, uh, someone I deeply respect, who's just a veteran

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in the publishing industry who saw something in me and honestly took a risk.

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Um, on paper.

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I was not the most qualified person.

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Um, but I kind of slid in, laterally into this industry that

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normally you have to climb up.

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and I just.

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Recognize, I, I here's how I've described it.

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Editing is the job that I was preparing for, for my whole

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life, but I didn't know it.

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And so as I've stepped into this, I've, I've realized, man, I am so suited for

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this and, and what the job requires.

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And that's not boastful saying I'm so good at it.

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I'm just saying the type of personality, uh, the work environment, um, the

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relational aspect, but then being able to just sit with for hours, like at

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a computer, you know, do I enjoy that?

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Uh, it's just been very very rewarding.

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So that's a little bit of my story.

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Is, uh, is it a

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ministry

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for you?

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100%. Yep.

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And you know, I, I may be a pastor again someday.

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I don't know what God has, but I will never leave that role behind.

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I want to be careful here because people have different experiences,

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some of them painful, and so when you talk about leaving ministry,

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there are all kinds of motivations.

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Um, I personally love the church.

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I'm committed to the church in many ways.

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I miss, you know, being in the church.

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Um, and so I think I always try to carry some of that with me.

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And what I do is highly relational.

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So as I talk with authors, I, I'm taking the most precious thing many of

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them have ever created, which is this book, this manuscript, and am walking

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beside them through the editorial process, which can be painful, As you're

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cutting some ideas and adding others.

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It, it, it's very, uh, delicate work.

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In some cases.

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I am praying for them, you know, we're exchanging voice memos.

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Week in and Week out.

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Uh, I'm encouraging them I'm sitting with them in their marketing meetings

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and trying to champion them and, and be, and bring ideas to the table to

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help their book reach more people.

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yeah, I, I tr I think it's very pastoral what I do.

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Um, like I just sent an author yesterday.

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I had read through his manuscript for the first time, made all my

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edits, and then I type up sort of a summary we call a editorial memo.

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That's just my high level feedback.

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And at the beginning of that, I just copied and pasted this liturgy called

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a Liturgy for receiving Feedback.

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And it just talks about how our identity is in Christ, how our ideas

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and whether they're received or rejected does not define our worth.

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And that's just one example of I'm always looking for little opportunities

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where I can be more than just an editor.

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But where I can be a, a friend in some cases, I can be, um, a pastor

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in some cases, and not to blur the the professional lines there, but the

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reality is, again, this is like precious heart, mind, soul work of these authors.

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And I'm not coming in as a cold, detached, grammar Nazi.

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You know, I'm coming in as someone who wants to enter into the creative

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process with the authors I work with and who's really an advocate for them.

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And, um, and what a privilege to get to do some of that supportive work.

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Yeah, that's good.

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Going back,

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you mentioned you

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were a youth pastor

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Yeah.

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at, at least I'm familiar with those roles.

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At

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least you made so much money in that you

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never

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have to think about money again.

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Right.

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It's,

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Yeah.

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that's a

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high

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paying gig, right?

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Oh, you know, the, the, the payment is in pizza and fun events.

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But not money.

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42 cents an hour when you calculate it out or

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something like

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that.

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So,

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Absolutely.

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I, and I I actually believe that what you're describing is pastoral

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discipling,

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Yeah.

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because I, as a coach, I typically have worked with leaders and leadership

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teams, and I don't think I'm.

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You know, making more of myself than I should be, but I feel as if I

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interact

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with people.

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more in a role of a discipler,

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Hmm.

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you know, to be able to disciple people.

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And, and it's interesting you bring it

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up.

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I'm actually, I've just started a role where I'm functioning

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as a

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COO of a

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company

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Hmm.

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was a client.

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And when I talked to the CEO, my good friend, we've known

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each other for 30, 30 years.

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We actually, when we were crafting our roles, I

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said, you know, it's gonna be more like you're an

Speaker: 00:20:57

evangelist.

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And

Speaker: 00:20:58

I'm the pastor.

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in that for-profit.

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I mean, it's a

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business.

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Okay?

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Don't get it, don't get me

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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But I, I, I actually believe.

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That the marketplace is

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the place where most of this occurs.

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And, and again,

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I, I

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think what

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we will call the

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Hmm.

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traditional church think we need to embrace more the, I don't know, the the

Speaker: 00:21:24

ways that they can interact together them out like, like we've done.

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That's me.

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That's my little

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rant on that.

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But,

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Yeah.

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ha.

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have you I mean, do you consider yourself a writer?

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Have you written from a young age or how have you kind of come in to getting your

Speaker: 00:21:41

writing chops?

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Yeah, great question.

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Yes.

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I've always had a love for writing, um, stretching back to kindergarten.

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Actually, I, it, it, it's kind of funny to to analyze your, your, uh,

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elementary year, you know, writing.

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But there is a assignment in kindergarten where it was an acrostic poem And,

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you know, first letter of, I think it was the word ocean or something.

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uh, every kid, it was just random.

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Each line was just its own thing.

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Uh, apparently this is what my parents tell me.

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My acrostic was all ocean themed.

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So I, I wove it all together in my tiny five-year-old brain.

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And, um, the truth is, Tim, uh, I I love writing.

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I, I just know so many.

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Fantastic writers that you're tempted to compare yourself, right?

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But what I had was an environment that nurtured my love for telling stories,

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for writing, and made me believe that maybe I before I actually was.

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And As an now, you know, I, I published mainly articles, um,

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across, you know, all kinds of different organizations, websites.

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Uh, I have my own newsletter, but I'll look back on something I

Speaker: 00:22:56

wrote a year ago and I'll think, wow, I could do so much better.

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And.

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You know, your future version of yourself is always gonna look back

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at the version today and be like, yeah, that, that wasn't that great.

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And, uh, I, I, but I love that because it shows growth and looking back at,

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it's like those tick marks on the door frame as you measure a kid who's growing

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and then, you know, you don't see them growing day to day, but you can when

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you look back how really have grown.

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And I think as a writer, um, that's been my mentality, but, uh, for me to sit down

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and write and to wrestle through an idea and to try to get it right and then to

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ship it out into the world and to see its impact, great or small, to me is one of

Speaker: 00:23:43

the most rewarding things in the world.

Speaker: 00:23:45

And so for me right now.

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I mostly do that through Substack in my newsletter, um, where I have a group of

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folks that I am writing too, and they're mostly aspiring writers, but I just,

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I love even writing about writing, so,

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That's good.

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You know, at, at times I think there's a fine line.

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Maybe it's not that fine.

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maybe it's just me between

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confidence,

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yeah.

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arrogance maybe

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being

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delusional, you know?

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Yeah.

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you know?

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you you up that you may have been given more confidence than you really should

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have had I, I think I was raised that way.

Speaker: 00:24:25

I wasn't writing, I At a young age, but I was speaking and I, I loved

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speaking

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and telling stories, which has, I've sort of migrated that.

Speaker: 00:24:35

we're gonna talk about the relationship between being a writer, author,

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and storyteller in just a moment.

Speaker: 00:24:39

'cause I wanna, I

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wanna really unpack that.

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I think, I think they're

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related, they're

Speaker: 00:24:43

cousins or siblings,

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Yeah.

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So, how important is confidence?

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And I wanna mention one thing related to being in kindergarten, which I'm

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guessing is like five, six-ish years old.

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Yeah.

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We're staying, I showed you right before we hit record, I showed you we're in the

Speaker: 00:24:58

alleyway behind

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my granddaughters.

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Yeah.

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there's one, she's five years old, we were having a conversation at dinner

Speaker: 00:25:05

yesterday And we were talking about some activities that she, might wanna do soon.

Speaker: 00:25:09

And we brought up, do you want to do you want to take piano.

Speaker: 00:25:12

lessons?

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Do you wanna take violin?

Speaker: 00:25:15

And she, she just boldly in front of the table said, I

Speaker: 00:25:18

already know how to play piano.

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And we all kind of looked at each other.

Speaker: 00:25:22

She's five now.

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She, there's no one in the family that's owned a piano.

Speaker: 00:25:27

She's got a toy piano, but she boldly proclaimed, she might've

Speaker: 00:25:32

gotten this from me, by the way.

Speaker: 00:25:33

See, I think this is borderline delusional.

Speaker: 00:25:34

I think that's where you step into this.

Speaker: 00:25:36

she basically said, yeah, I could play piano.

Speaker: 00:25:39

We said, well, don't you want lessons or anything?

Speaker: 00:25:41

And she almost looked at

Speaker: 00:25:42

us like,

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why would I need

Speaker: 00:25:43

Yeah, I got this.

Speaker: 00:25:44

I can already play.

Speaker: 00:25:47

How important is confidence when it comes to writing, and how do you have to manage

Speaker: 00:25:52

that as someone who might have the red pen

Speaker: 00:25:57

are critiquing someone's writing?

Speaker: 00:26:00

Yeah, what a tough question.

Speaker: 00:26:03

Um, the word that, that I like to use is audacity.

Speaker: 00:26:06

So I got that from Andrew Peterson.

Speaker: 00:26:09

He has a memoir called, it's either Adorning the Dark or God of the Garden.

Speaker: 00:26:13

One of those.

Speaker: 00:26:14

But, uh, he, he, I think it's adorning the Dark 'cause he's talking more

Speaker: 00:26:17

about creatives, those, whether they're songwriters, artists, writers,

Speaker: 00:26:22

and there is a certain level of audacity you have to have because to

Speaker: 00:26:27

be a writer, you're not just saying, I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.

Speaker: 00:26:31

this is cathartic, This is, for me.

Speaker: 00:26:33

No, as a writer you're saying this is for other people.

Speaker: 00:26:36

This is, uh, for the pub, for public consumption.

Speaker: 00:26:40

And there is a level of audacity there.

Speaker: 00:26:44

But I think along with Audacity is the humility not to take

Speaker: 00:26:48

yourself too seriously.

Speaker: 00:26:49

So you need the boldness to put your words out there, and then you need

Speaker: 00:26:52

the humility for some people to be like, I hate that, uh, that sucks.

Speaker: 00:26:56

I disagree.

Speaker: 00:26:57

And to not have it crush your identity or sense of self-worth.

Speaker: 00:27:02

Um, but confidence is a tricky word for me because what I've discovered, even

Speaker: 00:27:08

with writers who mentioning their names, people would think, oh, they've arrived.

Speaker: 00:27:14

They've written bestselling books being on the inside of publishing, what I see is

Speaker: 00:27:19

that imposter syndrome infects everyone.

Speaker: 00:27:22

No one's immune to it.

Speaker: 00:27:24

Everyone feels like they're the jokester in the room, that somehow they snuck in.

Speaker: 00:27:28

And at any moment, someone's gonna tap them on the shoulder and call

Speaker: 00:27:31

them out like you don't belong.

Speaker: 00:27:34

And I'm talking people who on paper are successful.

Speaker: 00:27:38

You know, um, I edit.

Speaker: 00:27:40

A lot of books by well-known authors, and a lot of times

Speaker: 00:27:43

I'll, I'll think, man, okay.

Speaker: 00:27:46

Writing, you know what I mean?

Speaker: 00:27:47

And that's very common in the publishing industry.

Speaker: 00:27:50

And so, but what they have is audacity.

Speaker: 00:27:54

They have that sense of, I, I, first of all, it's a burning within,

Speaker: 00:27:59

like, I, I gotta get this out.

Speaker: 00:28:01

You gotta have that fire and that urgency.

Speaker: 00:28:04

But then you have to have the audacity to say, and I'm actually going to act on it.

Speaker: 00:28:08

I'm gonna plant this flag in the ground, in the form of the written word.

Speaker: 00:28:13

I'm gonna practice in You know, I, I was processing with a good friend of mine,

Speaker: 00:28:17

he's published, uh, I think five books, but his first one is when he was like

Speaker: 00:28:24

25 and it made a little bit of a splash.

Speaker: 00:28:29

You know, he was interviewed by NPR and LA Times and a couple others.

Speaker: 00:28:33

And, um.

Speaker: 00:28:35

Then the book just got ripped apart by one or two leaders that he

Speaker: 00:28:40

deeply respected and it just stung.

Speaker: 00:28:44

So I was talking with him at least a decade later and I was like,

Speaker: 00:28:49

so looking back on that book, how do you feel about it now?

Speaker: 00:28:52

You know, do you stand by your words?

Speaker: 00:28:55

And he is like, I do.

Speaker: 00:28:57

But yeah, there's a lot of things I would say differently.

Speaker: 00:29:00

Um, but what's freeing, I think, for writers is, yeah, he would say

Speaker: 00:29:05

things differently now in some cases, but he doesn't regret the book.

Speaker: 00:29:09

He has learned the pain of being criticized by some of his

Speaker: 00:29:14

heroes, and he's still okay.

Speaker: 00:29:17

And his books have gotten better and better and better.

Speaker: 00:29:20

And because I have access to these databases, I can tell you that his

Speaker: 00:29:24

last book sold more than any of his other books and I would say is

Speaker: 00:29:27

the best book he's ever written.

Speaker: 00:29:28

So, yeah.

Speaker: 00:29:30

Audacity does not mean you think you're always right.

Speaker: 00:29:33

It means you're willing to take risks and put it on the line.

Speaker: 00:29:38

And, uh, to me, few things are as sad as when there's a capable writer who

Speaker: 00:29:44

is so afraid or, or their humility is, has grown into insecurity.

Speaker: 00:29:51

It's, it's been taken too far.

Speaker: 00:29:53

And, uh, I'm thinking of one friend in particular who often says, I

Speaker: 00:29:57

think it's irresponsible for me to put my words out there to that

Speaker: 00:30:00

many people because who am I?

Speaker: 00:30:04

I'm like, well, dude, yes, but let me tell you, there's thousands of

Speaker: 00:30:07

people much less qualified than you who are already doing that.

Speaker: 00:30:11

And so I, part of me wonders if what's underneath that is a fear of looking

Speaker: 00:30:16

stupid, is a fear of, um, and I, I'm not questioning his authenticity.

Speaker: 00:30:20

I I know he really does.

Speaker: 00:30:22

Feel responsible for the impact of his words.

Speaker: 00:30:25

But anyways, yeah, I think audacity and humility are the,

Speaker: 00:30:29

the paradox of a writer's mindset.

Speaker: 00:30:33

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:30:33

And, and you know, there's a word ego that popped into my

Speaker: 00:30:36

mind

Speaker: 00:30:36

that I believe you probably have to, uh, you, you have to.

Speaker: 00:30:41

Uh, I guess we could use that word, while, while also pastoring and nurturing

Speaker: 00:30:47

someone's soul while you're doing it.

Speaker: 00:30:50

And I you know, I recognized it.

Speaker: 00:30:52

I, I put 70,000 words in a novel, and I would, no one would ever

Speaker: 00:30:59

say that, Tim, you know, he is just a, the model of humility.

Speaker: 00:31:03

No, they would possibly use some other words to describe

Speaker: 00:31:06

me, but I'll tell you will.

Speaker: 00:31:09

I mean, we self-published, but I, I was like going, I wasn't sure I

Speaker: 00:31:13

wanted to push upload Amazon and all because was a bit different.

Speaker: 00:31:19

It was a novel.

Speaker: 00:31:20

It was, there was a little bit of self-reflection in it.

Speaker: 00:31:24

I had never put a lot of words out, even though I'd been writing most of my life.

Speaker: 00:31:30

uh, it was a little bit of a shaky start.

Speaker: 00:31:32

I I don't,

Speaker: 00:31:32

I

Speaker: 00:31:32

don't think I was excited about possible criticism.

Speaker: 00:31:35

Maybe that

Speaker: 00:31:36

was what it was.

Speaker: 00:31:37

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:31:38

Um.

Speaker: 00:31:39

Which is interesting, but, you know, I I think about personal

Speaker: 00:31:42

preference and I wonder how that integrates into what you do.

Speaker: 00:31:46

I man, I just thought about this book series and it was, most of

Speaker: 00:31:51

this audience would probably agree that the 50 Shades of Gray books

Speaker: 00:31:55

were trash as far as their content.

Speaker: 00:31:59

But even worse, to me it was

Speaker: 00:32:01

just

Speaker: 00:32:01

bad writing.

Speaker: 00:32:02

I, I, I had someone around me that said they read a portion of it and, you know,

Speaker: 00:32:08

I think it was El James or something, made a boatload of money, did well and

Speaker: 00:32:11

all that kinda stuff to, truthfully, it was almost porn if you ask me.

Speaker: 00:32:16

the writing was

Speaker: 00:32:17

horrible, you know, had it

Speaker: 00:32:18

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:19

good writing, I wanna say, okay, the content's not my thing and

Speaker: 00:32:21

all that, but it, it was horrible.

Speaker: 00:32:23

So does personal preference and just liking versus not

Speaker: 00:32:29

liking certain things enter into

Speaker: 00:32:32

your role?

Speaker: 00:32:34

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:34

Uh, are you asking sort of how I evaluate writing or,

Speaker: 00:32:39

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:40

Well, I mean, you mentioned in the, uh, earlier you said this just, this

Speaker: 00:32:43

is good writing, or this writing

Speaker: 00:32:45

may not be

Speaker: 00:32:46

good.

Speaker: 00:32:47

yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:49

how do you know maybe the best way of

Speaker: 00:32:51

asking how do you know if writing is good or not?

Speaker: 00:32:54

Then this might be me personally

Speaker: 00:32:56

asking.

Speaker: 00:32:56

Yeah, yeah, great question.

Speaker: 00:32:58

And I should qualify.

Speaker: 00:32:59

I'm a nonfiction editor, so I, I can really speak primarily

Speaker: 00:33:03

to, you know, that genre.

Speaker: 00:33:06

'cause fiction writers to me, I just am filled with envy, uh, how gifted they are.

Speaker: 00:33:11

Um, I mean, to, to tell a story and, and that being all that your book is, it a

Speaker: 00:33:17

story from start to finish gotta know what you're doing with pacing and dialogue

Speaker: 00:33:21

and the, the way you describe things.

Speaker: 00:33:23

Um, but yeah, in the nonfiction world, what makes good writing,

Speaker: 00:33:28

there's no way around the subjectivity of it to be fair, right?

Speaker: 00:33:31

So some people are gonna love one type of author and they're not

Speaker: 00:33:37

gonna like another, and the next person is gonna feel differently.

Speaker: 00:33:41

They might feel the reverse, but in general, um, I think writing that

Speaker: 00:33:47

resonates, uh, addresses a need.

Speaker: 00:33:52

Something that readers can readily identify.

Speaker: 00:33:55

It, it names an ache that they feel, and in the best cases, it names an

Speaker: 00:34:02

ache that they feel but haven't been able to articulate for themselves.

Speaker: 00:34:06

So good writing provides the gift of our articulating the, the groans of our

Speaker: 00:34:11

soul, whether it's the fear we feel, the hopes that we have, the dreams that

Speaker: 00:34:16

we have, the problems we're facing.

Speaker: 00:34:19

And a mistake I think a lot of writers make is their writing is too them focused.

Speaker: 00:34:27

Um, they're they're writing for themselves, not for the readers.

Speaker: 00:34:31

And so as an editorial team, we have different ways that we will coach writers,

Speaker: 00:34:37

like different comments that we'll make.

Speaker: 00:34:39

Here's a few of em.

Speaker: 00:34:40

We'll say something like, this is a great place to turn to the reader.

Speaker: 00:34:44

In other words.

Speaker: 00:34:46

Go and ask the reader a question or encourage them to think about something.

Speaker: 00:34:51

or if you've just taught some principle or truth show, give

Speaker: 00:34:57

them a, uh, buffet of ways that this could work out in their life.

Speaker: 00:35:00

Get their juices flowing, that kind of a thing.

Speaker: 00:35:02

So, turn to the reader, but my favorite one is look the reader

Speaker: 00:35:06

in the eye because it's concrete.

Speaker: 00:35:10

It's like you're sitting at coffee and there's someone across from you And

Speaker: 00:35:14

you know those moments in conversations where sometimes you're distracted,

Speaker: 00:35:17

you're stirring your coffee, maybe you're glancing over at the awkward first

Speaker: 00:35:22

date, sitting next to you, you know?

Speaker: 00:35:24

But then you have moments where you're just making direct eye contact.

Speaker: 00:35:29

You're, you're locked in and you're, you're connecting with the person

Speaker: 00:35:32

that you're communicating with.

Speaker: 00:35:33

And good writing taps into that, even though it's on the page, not in person.

Speaker: 00:35:39

it's quite possible to do that.

Speaker: 00:35:42

So that's one thing.

Speaker: 00:35:44

What else makes for good writing?

Speaker: 00:35:45

I would say, um, clarity and and pacing are huge.

Speaker: 00:35:50

And so a lot of what I help writers do is really boil down

Speaker: 00:35:55

what they're trying to say.

Speaker: 00:35:57

Uh, a good story at the wrong time makes it a bad story.

Speaker: 00:36:03

So a lot of times I'll be reading through a manuscript

Speaker: 00:36:05

and I'm like, this is hilarious.

Speaker: 00:36:07

I love this story, but it doesn't fit.

Speaker: 00:36:10

Or, wow, this is a heartbreaking narrative.

Speaker: 00:36:14

Um, I think actually you spent too much time here.

Speaker: 00:36:18

I think you went into some details that are gonna burden

Speaker: 00:36:22

readers rather than help them.

Speaker: 00:36:24

Um, and not saying writers should airbrush or minimize their pain, but

Speaker: 00:36:29

when we get writing, sometimes we get extra cathartic and uh, we start,

Speaker: 00:36:33

it's like a therapy session for us.

Speaker: 00:36:36

And again, the minute you decide that you wanna share your words with

Speaker: 00:36:39

others, that the writing is for them.

Speaker: 00:36:42

What that means is you have to put them first and you have to be a

Speaker: 00:36:46

ruthless eliminator and editor of your own life and sprinkle them in

Speaker: 00:36:53

as seasoning, But not the main course.

Speaker: 00:36:55

Uh, the exceptions of course, would be a memoir where

Speaker: 00:36:58

that's, that's the whole deal.

Speaker: 00:37:00

But those are extremely hard to sell, even harder to write Well,

Speaker: 00:37:04

and um, I think a lot of writers intuitively turn to to memoir when

Speaker: 00:37:09

they're trying to write something.

Speaker: 00:37:10

'cause it's like, oh, I'll just write my story.

Speaker: 00:37:13

Um, but actually what most nonfiction books should be, I think, is, uh,

Speaker: 00:37:19

books that are teaching you something, solving a problem, that kind of a thing.

Speaker: 00:37:23

They're, they're instructive in some way.

Speaker: 00:37:25

So, um, I could go on and on, but, but those are, those are a few things.

Speaker: 00:37:29

And I mentioned pacing, that, that taps into the storytelling aspect.

Speaker: 00:37:33

So knowing how long to tell a story is part of it.

Speaker: 00:37:39

So is transitioning from the end of that story into whatever point you're making.

Speaker: 00:37:44

And you could do that or inductively.

Speaker: 00:37:47

Deductively is when you give the truth first, and then, uh, you

Speaker: 00:37:51

explain it through the story.

Speaker: 00:37:53

Inductively is where you start with the story and the climax of the story.

Speaker: 00:37:56

Almost like one of Jesus's parables is this pithy takeaway,

Speaker: 00:38:01

like the take home point.

Speaker: 00:38:03

Um, so you, you can do it either way, but, and knowing how to do that well

Speaker: 00:38:07

and knowing, okay, what details will engage the reader and keep them clued

Speaker: 00:38:13

in, and then when too many details are going to cause them to tune out.

Speaker: 00:38:17

Like those instincts are very when it comes to writing nonfiction.

Speaker: 00:38:24

Yeah, and it's good.

Speaker: 00:38:25

like that you brought up that there is a difference between fiction and nonfiction.

Speaker: 00:38:28

One of the hardest things I had to do, write more what I

Speaker: 00:38:31

call fiction with a purpose.

Speaker: 00:38:32

I'm attempting to teach and get some

Speaker: 00:38:36

points

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across.

Speaker: 00:38:37

So it's kinda Like fiction on a

Speaker: 00:38:39

mission or something like that is

Speaker: 00:38:40

Like Pilgrim's

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But dialogue,

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something like that, you know, dialogue.

Speaker: 00:38:44

I actually hired a coach

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to help me with writing

Speaker: 00:38:47

fantastic.

Speaker: 00:38:48

It was like extremely

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difficult to do, but

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Yeah.

Speaker: 00:38:52

do you see a at all between people that are good uh, oral communicators?

Speaker: 00:39:01

and that they're also good written or is there a disconnect?

Speaker: 00:39:05

The, the reason I bring it up, I was in Bible school and there was

Speaker: 00:39:07

a lady that said, you know, Tim, you're a pretty good writer and

Speaker: 00:39:11

all that, would you read my book?

Speaker: 00:39:13

And this was a person that was sort of awkward communicating in general.

Speaker: 00:39:18

And truthfully, the book was a little awkward also.

Speaker: 00:39:21

So,

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and maybe that

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was just an isolated

Speaker: 00:39:24

Hmm.

Speaker: 00:39:25

correlations with people that are, if they're good communicators, it

Speaker: 00:39:28

translates to multiple Written speaking or, or am I trying to make something

Speaker: 00:39:34

of nothing?

Speaker: 00:39:34

I.

Speaker: 00:39:35

Yeah, great question.

Speaker: 00:39:36

I think it would depend on, um, a few things.

Speaker: 00:39:40

So it depends on what you mean by good oral communicator, because there's

Speaker: 00:39:45

there's different skills involved, right?

Speaker: 00:39:47

So I'm editing a book right now where I actually think he's a incredible

Speaker: 00:39:53

oral communicator, but one of his skills is distilling big ideas in

Speaker: 00:39:59

small, catchy, memorable phrases.

Speaker: 00:40:02

Um, and when he submitted his manuscript, I was like, wow, I'm

Speaker: 00:40:08

seeing that on the page like you have.

Speaker: 00:40:10

You know, I, I told him because I was just debriefing with him.

Speaker: 00:40:14

I was like, these phrases are like souvenirs.

Speaker: 00:40:16

They're things that, because they're so pithy and so catchy, readers can

Speaker: 00:40:21

take them with them and remember them.

Speaker: 00:40:23

You know, they may not remember everything you said in the book, but

Speaker: 00:40:26

some of these are gonna stick with them.

Speaker: 00:40:28

That's a communication gift that this guy has.

Speaker: 00:40:32

Um, but there's often a huge disconnect between people who are great on stage, in

Speaker: 00:40:38

person communicators, and then they go to write a book and it's all over the place.

Speaker: 00:40:45

Because they're intuitive thinkers.

Speaker: 00:40:47

They're not super linear.

Speaker: 00:40:48

They, they, they don't think as much in terms of structure and order.

Speaker: 00:40:53

They're just really good at capturing a room.

Speaker: 00:40:56

And you could honestly give them any topic and just be like, go

Speaker: 00:40:59

riff on that and make it engaging.

Speaker: 00:41:01

And they could do it.

Speaker: 00:41:02

Um.

Speaker: 00:41:04

Then you have communicators who are sort of the unicorns who can do both.

Speaker: 00:41:09

It's like they have, um, they have this magnetic quality about them.

Speaker: 00:41:15

They have an ability to read a room and to win people over effortlessly

Speaker: 00:41:21

in short, you know, in minutes.

Speaker: 00:41:23

And they know how to structure.

Speaker: 00:41:26

they know how to build a talk to sort of a climactic point.

Speaker: 00:41:30

Um, they know how to, as we were saying, really look people

Speaker: 00:41:33

in the eye and engage them.

Speaker: 00:41:35

So it's not just about here's the truth and the information, but there's a

Speaker: 00:41:39

real presence about them and, and they can see their audience really well.

Speaker: 00:41:46

Um, yeah, those folks, they can pull it off, but often we have to sort

Speaker: 00:41:52

of, teach some new skills to public speakers as they come to a book.

Speaker: 00:41:57

the question is, do you, write.

Speaker: 00:41:59

The way you talk, and should You yes and no.

Speaker: 00:42:02

Um, certainly you want it to be accessible.

Speaker: 00:42:05

You want it to be relatable.

Speaker: 00:42:07

You don't wanna sound stiff and awkward on the page, but it's

Speaker: 00:42:10

not exactly the same thing.

Speaker: 00:42:12

Um, words flow in a page differently.

Speaker: 00:42:15

I think the way that you handle a 30 minute talk into an auditorium

Speaker: 00:42:20

is different than the way you write a chapter in a book.

Speaker: 00:42:24

And, um, you know, with a book, uh, I've, I've heard this comparison from

Speaker: 00:42:29

a mentor of mine who's a great, uh, speaker, communicator, and a thoughtful

Speaker: 00:42:34

writer, but he just said the difference between a book and a talk is that in

Speaker: 00:42:39

a talk, people are stuck there for 30 minutes and you've got 'em with a book.

Speaker: 00:42:45

The goal is just get 'em to turn one more page, one more page, one more page, and

Speaker: 00:42:52

it's, it's a game that you have to play.

Speaker: 00:42:54

It's a skill you have to cultivate.

Speaker: 00:42:56

And so.

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I would say maybe just to synthesize, it's like in a book, the demand

Speaker: 00:43:03

or the the urgency to really hook readers and keep them with you

Speaker: 00:43:07

because they have many other options.

Speaker: 00:43:09

They can close the book, they can check their phone, they can turn on Netflix.

Speaker: 00:43:13

Um, they have to choose to read you.

Speaker: 00:43:16

you've gotta learn the art of, of keeping 'em with you and, uh, them in

Speaker: 00:43:21

really authentic ways and reminding them, Hey, this is for you and, um,

Speaker: 00:43:25

you're gonna get something out of this.

Speaker: 00:43:27

So, um, yeah, those are a few thoughts.

Speaker: 00:43:31

That was really good.

Speaker: 00:43:32

And I actually, as you were you mentioned that rare unicorn that can

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speak and

Speaker: 00:43:38

Yeah.

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had this epiphany of where my granddaughter got the idea that

Speaker: 00:43:45

she could play the piano when she's

Speaker: 00:43:46

never really sat before.

Speaker: 00:43:47

cause, cause I had this flash go through my mind going, oh Tim, you're the unicorn.

Speaker: 00:43:51

You could do both.

Speaker: 00:43:54

That was my thought,

Speaker: 00:43:55

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:43:55

then I thought, well, that's pretty delusional.

Speaker: 00:43:57

That's, I'm trying to be

Speaker: 00:43:58

self-aware at the same time.

Speaker: 00:43:59

I'm being delusional.

Speaker: 00:44:01

I'm like going,

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no, you're not.

Speaker: 00:44:02

That's not

Speaker: 00:44:02

the case.

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But,

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Yeah.

Speaker: 00:44:04

uh, anyway, that is, that is, that's really good.

Speaker: 00:44:07

And I'm, I'm glad I asked that question.

Speaker: 00:44:09

I wanna follow it up with something that kind of nags at me at times.

Speaker: 00:44:13

And I don't know where I fit into it.

Speaker: 00:44:16

I think I'm

Speaker: 00:44:16

stepping

Speaker: 00:44:17

into it a little bit more.

Speaker: 00:44:18

Hmm.

Speaker: 00:44:18

what, how do you define the difference between someone who's a writer, just

Speaker: 00:44:23

love putting words on paper, digital or whatever, an author, someone who just

Speaker: 00:44:28

loves cranking out books, and then maybe a storyteller that might have some of both.

Speaker: 00:44:36

And I might even be missing some terms, but I see those used interchangeably in

Speaker: 00:44:41

this

Speaker: 00:44:41

industry and at times I wonder where

Speaker: 00:44:44

I. Fit.

Speaker: 00:44:45

So what, and say whatever you want to about those.

Speaker: 00:44:48

'cause I'm guessing you see some of all of those

Speaker: 00:44:53

Yeah, that's a fascinating distinction.

Speaker: 00:44:55

And so as, uh, my friend Andy Crouch says, you know, I have ideas, but

Speaker: 00:45:00

maybe not many thoughts, you know, well-formed, um, to me an author, there's

Speaker: 00:45:07

an undertone there of, it's a career.

Speaker: 00:45:10

Um, and it's something you do vocationally.

Speaker: 00:45:14

Um, it doesn't have to be your sole income, but you know, maybe every

Speaker: 00:45:19

couple years you're, you're putting out a book or something like that.

Speaker: 00:45:21

Um, writer is a term.

Speaker: 00:45:24

I think you even said, Tim, maybe before we hit record, like I've written and

Speaker: 00:45:29

I have all these ideas, but I don't know that I'd call myself a writer.

Speaker: 00:45:31

And I would actually push back on that a little bit because what is

Speaker: 00:45:36

the standard of being a writer?

Speaker: 00:45:38

Do you have to be a Flannery O'Connor?

Speaker: 00:45:40

Do you have to be a CS Lewis?

Speaker: 00:45:43

You know, um, of course not.

Speaker: 00:45:45

Um.

Speaker: 00:45:46

When we think of writing and being a writer, I encourage people

Speaker: 00:45:51

to give themselves permission.

Speaker: 00:45:53

You'll never be a writer by saying You're not a writer.

Speaker: 00:45:56

Um, like my 5-year-old self in kindergarten writing an acrostic

Speaker: 00:46:02

poem, you gotta believe it.

Speaker: 00:46:04

Um, even before it's maybe true or, or maybe a better way of saying it

Speaker: 00:46:09

is, becomes more true the more you do it and the more you, um, dignify

Speaker: 00:46:16

what you're doing by allowing yourself to say, I am a writer.

Speaker: 00:46:21

Uh, writers like any other art form.

Speaker: 00:46:24

Um, we're all in different stages.

Speaker: 00:46:27

And if I compared myself to some of my good writer buddies, I

Speaker: 00:46:32

would feel inadequate every time.

Speaker: 00:46:33

But I do call myself a writer, um, And I encourage people to,

Speaker: 00:46:38

to think of it in those terms.

Speaker: 00:46:40

And so, and then storyteller, that's an interesting one.

Speaker: 00:46:44

Storytelling is so integral to all types of writing fiction, nonfiction, you

Speaker: 00:46:52

know, if we're gonna distinguish between writers and authors, I think to be a

Speaker: 00:46:57

writer, you have to be a storyteller.

Speaker: 00:46:59

There's, there's no way around it.

Speaker: 00:47:01

Um, that is the sort of, uh, that's the language that we speak in.

Speaker: 00:47:07

That's the quickest way to the heart.

Speaker: 00:47:10

That's the best way to capture attention.

Speaker: 00:47:14

Um, it is, you know, the, the way to teach a truth in a way that is

Speaker: 00:47:19

enjoyable and engaging and delightful.

Speaker: 00:47:24

And so, yeah.

Speaker: 00:47:26

Are there storytellers that aren't writers?

Speaker: 00:47:28

Sure, of course.

Speaker: 00:47:30

People choose different mediums, right?

Speaker: 00:47:32

Uh, you have some who they love podcasting, telling stories that

Speaker: 00:47:37

way, or, um, telling stories through film or songwriting.

Speaker: 00:47:42

I think just the good old fashioned circling up and telling stories.

Speaker: 00:47:45

I actually, my friend group in college did this.

Speaker: 00:47:47

we we had storytelling nights uh, sometimes there'd be a theme and we would

Speaker: 00:47:52

just gather and we we tried to bring our best work and tell stories to one another.

Speaker: 00:47:59

Uh, I I love that.

Speaker: 00:48:01

But yeah, I think as a storytelling is part of the bread and

Speaker: 00:48:06

butter of what we're doing.

Speaker: 00:48:09

Uh, the reason it sort of resonates with me,

Speaker: 00:48:13

is I find myself

Speaker: 00:48:14

working on a

Speaker: 00:48:15

lot of stories.

Speaker: 00:48:16

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:48:17

I, do have not.

Speaker: 00:48:17

Nonfiction, things that I'm working on, some things I wanna get across,

Speaker: 00:48:21

but what I will often find is I'm looking for a fictional way to bring

Speaker: 00:48:26

the

Speaker: 00:48:26

point across of what I'm also working on

Speaker: 00:48:29

in the nonfiction space,

Speaker: 00:48:31

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:48:31

leads me to believe, it's like, maybe I'm just wired.

Speaker: 00:48:33

Maybe that's what God called me to do, to go back to our earlier conversation.

Speaker: 00:48:38

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:48:39

But, uh, and I, and I do enjoy that, which then this actually brings

Speaker: 00:48:44

up my, it's not a trick question, but

Speaker: 00:48:47

boy, it's

Speaker: 00:48:47

one that's front and center.

Speaker: 00:48:49

Mm.

Speaker: 00:48:49

Is AI cheating?

Speaker: 00:48:52

is AI messing up the world that we're in, or is it enhancing it

Speaker: 00:48:59

and flushing out a lot of things?

Speaker: 00:49:01

I could argue both ways, and I could tell you that I'm knee deep or maybe

Speaker: 00:49:05

neck deep into AI with doing a lot of things with my work and all that.

Speaker: 00:49:11

And I'm doing some with my writing, so be be gentle

Speaker: 00:49:14

if you're gonna tell me I'm cheating on that.

Speaker: 00:49:16

But is it, is it

Speaker: 00:49:17

cheating?

Speaker: 00:49:18

It's funny.

Speaker: 00:49:19

I was on a a podcast earlier this morning and the same question was asked, I am

Speaker: 00:49:24

what I would call AI agnostic or AI cautious, and I've heard arguments.

Speaker: 00:49:31

Even this week I was listening to a couple debates.

Speaker: 00:49:34

Um, between people, uh, I think it was the the New York Times was predicting

Speaker: 00:49:40

some almost catastrophes that AI is going to unleash on the world.

Speaker: 00:49:46

and these are not conspiracy theory folks.

Speaker: 00:49:49

These are, you know, reasonable, very intelligent people

Speaker: 00:49:53

talking about these things.

Speaker: 00:49:54

But I think, so first of all, those that are AI cautious, there's no

Speaker: 00:50:00

avoiding AI in, in the world at large.

Speaker: 00:50:03

Um, it's so competitive.

Speaker: 00:50:05

Companies basically have the choice between incorporating

Speaker: 00:50:09

AI are being left behind and maybe even going outta business.

Speaker: 00:50:13

I don't know.

Speaker: 00:50:14

Uh, so I just heard Logoff software.

Speaker: 00:50:17

They have a new AI search feature, you know, so we're talking

Speaker: 00:50:20

even ministry aimed companies.

Speaker: 00:50:24

Everyone's doing it.

Speaker: 00:50:26

Um, I don't think the, in our world, you can, you'll be able to avoid it

Speaker: 00:50:30

if you use an app or if you search something, um, it's just gonna be coded

Speaker: 00:50:34

in and you may not even realize it.

Speaker: 00:50:35

So, uh, we don't have necessarily total autonomy and choice in every area, but

Speaker: 00:50:44

when it comes to our creative work and our writing, we absolutely do have a choice.

Speaker: 00:50:49

So for me, um, I'm still processing this.

Speaker: 00:50:54

I can speak from the publishing side.

Speaker: 00:50:56

Our authors are not allowed to write their content using ai.

Speaker: 00:51:00

Um, our contract specifies that they can use AI to ideate, to come up with ideas.

Speaker: 00:51:06

But if any sentences are created with an LLM, they have to be

Speaker: 00:51:10

rewritten in an author's own words.

Speaker: 00:51:12

That's our hard and fast stance.

Speaker: 00:51:14

We want the author's thoughts.

Speaker: 00:51:17

If you think of all of human history up until, what, three years ago?

Speaker: 00:51:21

AI did not exist.

Speaker: 00:51:23

And look at the beautiful things that humans have created, the

Speaker: 00:51:26

words that they have written.

Speaker: 00:51:28

Um, we, we don't wanna disrupt that.

Speaker: 00:51:31

Um, the hard thing is for most of us, AI can write faster and better than

Speaker: 00:51:36

what we could produce on our own.

Speaker: 00:51:38

some say Sweet.

Speaker: 00:51:39

Let's do it.

Speaker: 00:51:40

That sounds great.

Speaker: 00:51:42

the problem with that is, and with any piece of technology, uh, when you start

Speaker: 00:51:48

to give yourself those shortcuts, your critical thinking starts to atrophy.

Speaker: 00:51:54

Um, it's in the pain and the toil and the, and the frustration and the dead ends

Speaker: 00:52:00

of the creative process where you gotta go for a walk or you have to sleep on an

Speaker: 00:52:04

idea, or you have to let things marinate.

Speaker: 00:52:08

That's what's at stake.

Speaker: 00:52:10

Um, those beautiful sentences and ideas that are the overflow of that pain.

Speaker: 00:52:18

And that inconvenience.

Speaker: 00:52:21

And so AI is like microwaving ideas.

Speaker: 00:52:25

you you can pop 'em out quickly and they're warm and they're,

Speaker: 00:52:29

they're ready to eat and serve up.

Speaker: 00:52:31

But, uh, there, there will be some of us, and this is where I'd put

Speaker: 00:52:35

myself, that I, I try to, I'm trying to protect my capacity for creativity.

Speaker: 00:52:43

Understanding that the more I take the shortcut, the more when

Speaker: 00:52:47

I hit a roadblock, I'm gonna turn to it again and again and again.

Speaker: 00:52:51

And I'm gonna slowly erode my capacity for deep thinking and for creative patience

Speaker: 00:52:58

for creative tenacity and resilience.

Speaker: 00:53:01

And, um, I, I never want to be that person.

Speaker: 00:53:04

So, uh, I do use in a, in a few ways, um, even in my job.

Speaker: 00:53:09

I'm still evaluating whether I want to and, um.

Speaker: 00:53:14

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:53:14

When it comes to writing, I don't use it at all.

Speaker: 00:53:16

Um, I, I stay away from it, so that's my personal stance.

Speaker: 00:53:20

I, I, I've used it.

Speaker: 00:53:22

It's a great brainstorming partner for some things that I

Speaker: 00:53:25

am working on.

Speaker: 00:53:26

I did an

Speaker: 00:53:27

experiment when

Speaker: 00:53:28

the gr

Speaker: 00:53:30

Hmm.

Speaker: 00:53:30

you know,

Speaker: 00:53:31

X came out.

Speaker: 00:53:32

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:53:33

I I had some ideas and I jumped on it.

Speaker: 00:53:35

This kind of my way of testing it.

Speaker: 00:53:37

I had some ideas about some stories that were leading up.

Speaker: 00:53:41

There were fictional stories, but they were based in scripture, fictional

Speaker: 00:53:44

stories that were leading up to the fall of the, the fall of Jerusalem in 80 70.

Speaker: 00:53:49

And when I started, I went down a rabbit hole and two and a

Speaker: 00:53:53

half hours later, I, I had a

Speaker: 00:53:55

mini novel

Speaker: 00:53:57

Wow.

Speaker: 00:53:58

I, I, I'll be blunt, it was a pretty good story and it and I, and it kind

Speaker: 00:54:03

of messed with me will, because I talked to my wife later and some

Speaker: 00:54:06

others, I said, I'm trying to.

Speaker: 00:54:09

Determine if this was my story, I feel very confident it

Speaker: 00:54:12

was because I was arguing.

Speaker: 00:54:14

I'm going, no, that's not

Speaker: 00:54:16

what happened.

Speaker: 00:54:16

This is the scripture.

Speaker: 00:54:17

on the, you know, I went through all this stuff, but yet I

Speaker: 00:54:20

didn't write any of

Speaker: 00:54:21

the words.

Speaker: 00:54:22

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:54:23

it for a writing assistant with a lot of things I do in business.

Speaker: 00:54:25

I've just cranked out job for an entire organization in no time with some input.

Speaker: 00:54:31

So I, I think it's gonna be one of the big challenges that we

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have to deal with in the near

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future now, you deal primarily with

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Christians,

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Yeah.

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that

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adds another

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Yes.

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I, we we had this discussion with the Christian Podcasters Group and

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we were talking about taking podcast and using AI to transcribe and

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create some things from the podcast.

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And would've thought, I I said

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Jesus didn't go to the cross and die for our

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sins.

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Yeah.

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it was like, that's the devil and all that.

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Any any comments on it

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from not just a writing, but from a faith

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standpoint?

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I.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, I I think what I was saying earlier about our creative capacity,

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um, that's something to think deeply about, you know, um, because the words

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that we use, um, responsible for And we're, we're held accountable for.

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So there, there's that side of it.

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And just wanting to steward our, our words well in a way that glorifies

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God and does good for others.

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I think we need to be patient with one another.

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Um.

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Because this is coming so fast and, um, you know, faster arguably than maybe

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any other technology in our lifetime.

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And I, I don't know, I, I, describe myself as agnostic because I'm

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not even sure I can comprehend the full implications of this question.

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Um, I have one colleague who said, AI is not a moral issue anymore

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than the internet is an issue.

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It's, it's how you use the tool.

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It's not the morality of the tool itself.

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And I'm like, okay, I can see that.

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At the same time, the problem is hasty adoption and mindless

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acceptance of something.

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Um, and because it's coming so fast, you know, we don't even

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have a choice in the matter.

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So I just encourage people to be patient, uh, as I've listened to AI debates.

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I'll be honest, they just mess me up.

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They give me crazy cognitive dissonance and I'm just like, I don't

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even know what to think about this.

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and so I start with what I do know and what I feel called to.

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And for me that is anything that I'm sending out as my writing, I want to know

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that I wrote it, um, that I struggled, and I'm actually willing to put out

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something that's mediocre compared to what AI could do if it's mine.

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Um, because I want to see my growth, as I was saying earlier.

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I wanna be able to look back and see that, um, I want to push my

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mind and explore the, the, the full capacity that God has given me.

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Um, so yeah, as we have these conversations, I would just say walk

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slowly, form conclusions, slowly, listen deeply and with charity and also.

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First and foremost, listen to God's spirit whispering to you and pay attention

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to the convictions of your heart.

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Um, I, I'm imagining because of how AI's taken over the world to be dogmatic

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about this one way or the other, is at a certain point just going to be divisive.

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And, you know, it's kind of social media.

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I have strong opinions about it, but ultimately I I can have good conversations

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with others about it, but I have to let them before God and others make the

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decision that they feel right about.

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Um, so I hope that's not too diplomatic of an answer, but I, I truly feel

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like I'm just immersed in this debate right now and trying to find my way.

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I don't think we're gonna be able to get away from it either.

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Will, you know, one of the things I've asked myself,

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I've really reflected on some.

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I've worked on because my my novel, I wrote 70,000 words,

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these two fingers typed out

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every bit of it,

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Mm-hmm.

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it was excruciating and it was joyful and

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it was

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challenging and all of those

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Yeah.

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Um, but then to sit down and in two and a half hours, and I and I do

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wonder if it might be the difference between someone who considers

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themselves a storyteller versus someone who puts a lot of words on paper.

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And that's something that I'm kind of

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wrestling with.

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Um, will, we're running up against our

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time, but

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there's two more questions

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Mm-hmm.

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got, and the first one is, I know we've got some people probably because of the

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title and the topic are interested in.

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Putting a

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book out.

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I,

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Yeah.

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I, fascinating.

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I heard years ago that like 87% of all people think they've got a book

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in them, which fascinates me because I think this, there's only like 49% of

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the people that actually read books.

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So that means there's a disconnect between

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people that

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read and people, anyway, that's,

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Yeah,

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nother

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point.

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But, um, what I think people get confused or they don't understand, and this might

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be a short answer for a long topic.

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How does the money work with, when we move into a publishing type situation,

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self-publishing, you just work on it, get it good,

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pop it up on

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Amazon or whatever,

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Yeah.

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but how does the money work within a publishing world?

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And then I'm gonna ask.

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you to

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people how they can connect with you.

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And then I've got one more exclamation point

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question I want

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to ask.

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Yeah.

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That's great.

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Yeah.

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For someone who doesn't know how publishing works, um, you really

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make money writing in two ways.

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Uh, the first is your advance, so that's an amount of money.

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that a publisher agrees to pay you for your book, and you get that money.

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No matter what.

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It's usually paid out in several installments at different stages of

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the writing and publishing process.

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Um, and then secondly, if your book sells, and that's a big if, 'cause most

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books do not earn out their advance, um, then you get royalties as well.

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So essentially you make the publisher that money back that they paid you.

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Um, if you sell additional copies, then you get a certain percentage

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of of sales and the percentage increases, the more that you sell.

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So what's great about publishing for writers?

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I. Well first the challenge is it's hard to land a book deal,

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uh, because as you said, Tim, you know, so many people want to write.

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So it's highly competitive.

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But if you do land a book deal, unlike how the the record industry used

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to work, maybe it still does, but where a band would sign a deal and

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then they would be responsible for, if they didn't make back the money,

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they were on the hook to pay it back.

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That is not how publishing works at all.

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The author gets the money, the publisher takes the hit no matter what.

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another aspect of how the money works internally is, I, I may have the

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percentages a little off, but it's something like 20% of our books pay

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for, you know, 80% of our budget.

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So most books don't work financially speaking.

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Um, and so when writers get angry with publishers, like, ah, you know,

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they're, they're just about the money I. We actually lose money on

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80% of the authors we take risks on.

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And uh, it's the few that float the many.

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So, kind of fascinating inside peak there.

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Yeah, that's good.

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Um, why don't, why don't you go and tell people?

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Like, let's just say someone's listening in.

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They go, you know what I, I need to connect with will I, I actually think

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your newsletter might be the best spot to

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Mm-hmm.

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but, um, go ahead and let, this is like promo time.

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Tell

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everybody where to find you.

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I've got one

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more comment and a

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question then we'll be done.

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good.

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uh, where do

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they go?

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Yeah, it's very simple.

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It's just writer circle.co.

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So writer circle.co.

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and that's where you can sign up for my newsletter.

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Um, and my goal with the newsletter is because I, as an editor, I meet so many

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writers who are looking for their next step, or they want to know how publishing

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works and they want to grow as a writer.

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And so every Saturday I send out a tip on writing or publishing.

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That can be read in five minutes And I'm just taking all my learnings

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from my job, the, the best, you know, practices that I see.

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And I just try to pour those into my newsletter in a really bite-sized way.

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And then, uh, I also have a podcast also called The Writer Circle, where I

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interview well-known Christian authors.

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I interview other editors like myself, literary agents, like basically

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giving you a behind the scenes look at what it it takes to write well

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and get published and all of that.

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So both of those resources are@writercircle.co.

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That's great.

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We'll include the links down below on YouTube and also on the

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podcast so people can connect.

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Will I know you specifically work with Christians?

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We didn't really,

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we talked a good

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bit about it, faith, but

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Yeah.

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like, you know, just 20, 20, 30 seconds.

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quick tip final thing here, quick tip that you've got.

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For someone who's listening in, they go, you know what I, I'm a person of faith.

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I think I'd like to put a book together, or, I think I've got

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one or something like that.

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Just whatever the Holy Spirit puts on your heart.

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What's

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a quick tip you wanna leave us with

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before I wrap

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this up?

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Yeah, thanks Tim.

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I would probably say this

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before you can run a marathon, you should run a 5K and a book is a huge undertaking.

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Not to say that those of you listen aren't up for that challenge, but my question

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would be, have you written an article?

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Um, have you started a substack Or a blog?

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Or a newsletter?

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Have you practiced the short form of what you want to do?

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Long form?

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Um, a lot of people hit this dead end as they're trying to write a book and maybe

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they even get 20, 30,000 words down, which is incredible, but then they fizzle out.

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And so if you've got a topic that is burning, you know, inside of

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your heart and mind, I would say.

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Write a couple short pieces and email that to a close circle of

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family and friends and start a conversation and and get some feedback.

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And that's going to build a number of muscles, not just your writing muscle

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and help you improve in your craft, but it's going to help you get used to that

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risky feeling of putting your words out there, um, to to have your bubble

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burst a couple times when people push back or don't read what you've written.

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And what happens sometimes is we romanticize the idea of writing a

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book or the, book, this ultimate goal that we're so, uh, transfixed by.

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Um, and most people never get there when they try to run the marathon,

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you know, going from zero to 100.

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So yeah, it's, it's about getting some.

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Littler wins under your belt and not despising those little wins, but, but

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seeing them as you're training and as a joy, um, a lot of people want a book,

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but they don't actually like writing and they haven't quite realized that yet.

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writing short form stuff, I'm talking a thousand words or less, um, that's

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going to help you discover, um, if you actually love it enough to keep doing it.

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And so a book cannot create a love for writing, but a love

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for writing can create a book.

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Mm-hmm.

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That is so good.

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Will Parker Anderson, man, I enjoyed this conversation.

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I knew that I would.

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I, uh, um, make sure you go check out writer circle.io.

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I've got it pulled up here, on my computer.

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And one of the funny thing before I before I close this out here, I

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actually will take someone's bio and use AI to get some questions.

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I rarely get to them, but there was one that, there was one that I

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was looking at here that I wanted to, I'm just gonna mention it.

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We're not gonna answer it and we're gonna close out.

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This was a question that AI generated.

Speaker: 01:06:26

If Jesus were launching a writing ministry today, what do you

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imagine his submission letter to a major publisher might look like?

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Wow.

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I'm glad we're signing off so I don't have to answer that one.

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my goodness.

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We are done with that.

Speaker: 01:06:41

So Will Parker Anderson, thank you for joining us.

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This was, this has been a great conversation.

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It has been helpful for me.

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I know listeners been helpful for you.

Speaker: 01:06:51

Just learning more about insights about the writing industry and what's

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going on It's been a real blessing.

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I appreciate you Will for sharing with us.

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We are seek go create.

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We've got new episodes here every Monday.

Speaker: 01:07:01

We're on YouTube, growing fast over there, podcast channels, all of those things.

Speaker: 01:07:06

Keep doing all that you're doing because we are getting the word out with these

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long conversations with great people

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like Will.

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So

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thanks for listening in.

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We will

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see everyone

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next week.