Fighting What Divides Us: Bringing Peace & Reconciliation With Doug Bursch

Doug Bursch: 00:00:00

I've never met a person who didn't have room for growth.

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And the most scary people are the people who refuse to get help.

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The people who refuse to get prayer, the people who never apologize.

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So I don't wanna be associated with that.

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I don't want to ever prop up a person, a leader, anyone who is just, look

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at how I do it and do it my way.

Tim Winders: 00:00:30

In a world that often feels fragmented and disconnected, how can

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we navigate our digital and spiritual lives with authenticity and grace?

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Welcome to Seat Go Create, where today's guest, Doug Burch, brings his unique

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perspective as a writer, minister, and speaker committed to living by the

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spirit and exploring the intersection of faith, community, and social media.

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Doug author, a posting piece, why social media divides us

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and what we can do about it.

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I just finished reading half of that, really enjoyed it, and his other book,

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the Community of God, A Theology of the Church from a Reluctant Pastor.

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I love the thought of that.

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I need to circle back and read that he has spent 24 years pastoring and

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has been the voice behind a radio show and the Fairly Spiritual Show podcast.

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His journey seems to be one of seeking harmony between his

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spiritual calling and his daily life.

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Doug, welcome to Seek Go Create.

Doug Bursch: 00:01:26

Well, hey, thanks for having me on.

Doug Bursch: 00:01:28

I've been looking forward to this

Tim Winders: 00:01:30

Yeah, I think this is gonna be interesting.

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We were right before we hit record, we were kinda like

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going, so what are we doing here?

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What are we talking about?

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And so think this is gonna be a nice, free flowing conversation, but let's do

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something that, is not really pretending.

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Doug.

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Let's just say we just meet, and I'm doing this idle chitchat question where

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I say, Doug, by the way, what do you do?

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How do you respond when someone asks you at this season, stage

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of your life, what you do?

Doug Bursch: 00:02:02

I, if we just met, I'd probably try to change

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the topic or the subject.

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pastoring for 24 years.

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There's some people that the moment you say you're a pastor, they, depending upon

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their experience of the church, they just shut up and that's the last you get of it.

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In fact, I was, on a fishing boat.

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It was one of those where they take you out to fish for some, I don't know,

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like you drop a line and you catch fish and it's doesn't seem fair to the fish.

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But there was a guy next to me swearing the whole time,

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just nonstop like creative.

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Swear, just.

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Brilliant swear.

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And like a hour into our time, he goes, so what do you do And I'm like, and I didn't

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wanna say it, I was just, I'm a pastor.

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And then you could just see his eyes like roll back.

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Like he was trying to think of all the conversations he had.

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He just stops.

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And he goes, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, Well, I was a pastor for 24 years.

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I'm not that right now.

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I'm in between that.

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I'm trying to figure out what to do.

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I write books.

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I like to talk about hope.

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Right now I'm writing, fiction, a creative novel.

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I do a bunch of things and I'm not content with any of them.

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So, uh, for me, that's kind of what I do.

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Ministry reconciliation's a big issue for me that whatever I talk about

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is how do we bring people together?

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how do we, actually find a way, not in a simplistic way, but

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how do we heal the divides?

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How do we enter into, as the scripture talks about the ministry of

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reconciliation, where the dividing walls of hostility are torn down and we can find

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true community around important things.

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Have, has that always been your, mantra, that

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reconciliation or is that something you've evolved into over time?

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I.

Doug Bursch: 00:03:35

it's interesting, I think sometimes writers overcompensate in that

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they write for an area they might struggle with, so they think, well, if I write

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a book, maybe, it'll solve the problem.

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I think pastors do that.

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Counselors helpers do that.

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I'm a middle child.

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There was five kids in our family.

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I'm the middle child, and even as a middle child, I wanted everyone to get along.

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And so that concept, and it's not always been a positive thing where not liking

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conflict, wanting everybody to get along, wanting to try to find unity.

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I think that was in my DNA there's, or whether it was the

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nurture or the nature, right.

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Uh, so I've always pursued that and it might've come even

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outta my own discomfort, not enjoying being in divided rooms.

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It might not even have been a really, oh, the Lord has told me to do this.

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It's more how do I get these jerks to stop being jerky to each other?

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So now my family wasn't like that.

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It was a good family, but you got five kids and seven people.

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There's a certain level of chaos.

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So I, from earliest on, and then looking back I realized, wow,

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whatever I write about, I tend to keep going to these themes.

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so I'm kind of discovering who I am as I write, as I preach and teach.

Tim Winders: 00:04:40

I is that as you moved into ministry?

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Or let's do a little bit of background real quick here.

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'cause you and I haven't really spent a lot of time around each other.

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I wanna say this too.

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I wanna go ahead and get this out so that people understand this.

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I was drawn to you just from interacting or not really interacting, just

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reading some of the things you did on, I guess we call it X now, the

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platform formerly known as Twitter.

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I feel like we need to say that and uh, you know, just the short burst, sort

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of pithy sometimes a little bit, humor.

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It's okay to say that humor.

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Is it okay

Doug Bursch: 00:05:16

yes.

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Humor.

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That's right.

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sarcasm?

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Is sarcasm okay?

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Do you have a little bit ? Of that I

Doug Bursch: 00:05:21

I, I've got a lot of sarcasm,

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Okay.

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Some people don't like to be called that, and I'm like going, I actually

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embrace it probably more than I should because I'm not sure that it

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always lines up with reconciliation, just as a, something there.

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Sometimes sarcasm can cause issues there, at least it does for me.

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Maybe not you, maybe you've mastered that, but I was drawn to that just

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because that seems to be a place that you, you get a lot of information out.

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Now.

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And so I'm just setting that up to say that's what drew me to you.

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And I could also tell that I think we had some, some differing viewpoints, but

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we were moving in a similar direction, which I like the thought of that.

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Okay.

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So that, I think that's a, maybe a little bit of a foundation for our conversation,

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but tell me a little bit about kind of, I don't wanna know the, not necessarily

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the growing up years, but how does someone go into ministry or how did, what's

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your story for going into ministry?

Doug Bursch: 00:06:25

Well, uh, I was born in a log cabin, which,

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no, I won't go back that far.

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by the way, with sarcasm, this will help.

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Some people are like, sarcasm just isn't right 'cause it's lying or something.

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Sarcasm like any other, form of communication, it

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depends on the motivation.

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Some people use sarcasm as a way to tear people down in a humorous way, and I

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think that's the kind of sarcasm we would say we don't like, where it's a passive

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aggressive way to tell someone, say something mean, but oh, it's just a joke.

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I'm just being sarcastic.

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Most of my sarcasm is more, self-effacing and I'm talking

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about what I've done wrong.

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and if I'm gonna be sarcastic, it's probably going to be with people in

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power who could probably take it.

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Somebody who's kind of a know-it-all who's used to telling everybody things.

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And I might say, boy, you certainly have an opinion there.

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just something like that.

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uh, as far.

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hold on one second.

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Lemme pause you.

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But do you use it, because you triggered something in me, do you

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also use it as a relatability thing?

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You mentioned the self-effacing, which I realize that I do that at times too.

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It's kinda it, a lot of it's directed at me.

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And I do similar, like what you just mentioned, but do you perceive it as

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being something that helps you, you think, relate to other people better?

Doug Bursch: 00:07:34

Yeah, it's a part of who I am, it's not like I'm going to

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be humorous now, it's just how I am.

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But humor has a way of opening doors.

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I've found, I've often defined some of the stuff I do as evangelistic, and not

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that I, have everybody raise their hand to give their life to Christ, but I come in

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and maybe say difficult things, but I say it in a way that people are open

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to it, and so there is a part of that.

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Sometimes people assume humor means you're not serious about what you're talking

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about, but what I've found is if you take enough effort to get someone to laugh

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at themselves, then when you come in and you say something like, you know, we

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need to really look at how we're living.

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They're more willing to receive that.

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Because you've done that effort.

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So that's a big thing for me, because we all do that.

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We do it with the people we love, or at least people with sense of humor

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Do this where you tease a spouse who might be getting a little annoyed and

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it's a way to tell them, Hey, your attitude's kind of not the best right now.

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So when we love people, sometimes we joke with them to

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get them to laugh a little bit.

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We do that with our kids, right?

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You seem to be a little grumpy today.

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and then when they acknowledge that, then it's a way to also

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say, maybe we should turn our attitude in a different direction.

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So humor, also humor for insecurities.

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I know for me, struggling to fit in as a kid, humor gets you at the table, right?

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So I could joke about things.

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I was a Christian kid always.

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I, since I was two, I gave my life to Christ.

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I said yes to Jesus, and I never stopped saying yes.

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So that's my testimony.

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And there's no real backsliding testimonies either.

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I've always loved Jesus.

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Now, like any 2-year-old who grew up in an evangelical culture, I

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gave my life to Christ over and over again, just in case it didn't stick.

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the person would come into town and, okay, maybe, I'll raise my hand again for Jesus.

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But, but being a Christian kid and going through, the public schools,

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And I wasn't like the nerd kid.

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I was actively involved in things in sports, but I

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always felt like an outsider.

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And so humor is a great way, right?

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You can just I'm a Pentecostal in the sense of believe the Holy Spirit as the

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Holy Spirit worked in, in the Bible.

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Holy Spirit works today.

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So people who are worried about Pentecostals, what's

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the first joke I'll do?

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I'll say something like, don't worry, I didn't bring my snakes.

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I'm not gonna be handling snakes or something like that.

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And then they pull back a little bit, but I'm still the Pentecostal, so I think I

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use it that way as well to cut 'em off at the past what they're already thinking

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about me to say it before they say it.

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So then we know what the concerns are and maybe how to move forward.

Tim Winders: 00:09:57

Yeah.

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the

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I didn't talk at all about how I became a pastor, did I?

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But you, I think

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you set me off in

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yeah, we're, I did, we're about to go back that direction, but I,

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it, I didn't grow up around a church.

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I.

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I grew up in the deep south though, which would tell you a good bit about me.

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And we popped in and out of the Baptist church every once in a while and,

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and then later, Pentecostal is where I came back or came to or whatever.

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I don't know, but I like the same thing you said.

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I like the joking about some of the raising of the hands and the . I also

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went to churches when we started going more that were multicultural, which

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is fascinating as someone who's white, especially in the deep South, and

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you're allowed or get to go to churches where there's color and people really

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do worship differently, that, we can say, oh yeah, we're all the same.

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No, we're not.

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We're not, we're different.

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when Effie takes off running around the church, you gotta get outta the

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way or you're gonna get mowed down.

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And so we laugh and joke about that, but, but, but alright, so now let's get to

Doug Bursch: 00:11:05

We could, by the way, we could talk forever on humor

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because to me, any joke like this is the problem with social media, it's

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general and usually we're content driven versus relationship driven.

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So if you have a relationship with someone, and let's say you're in that

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multicultural church, you can make jokes about cultural differences,

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racial differences, if you're friends, if not, and again, why

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is this person telling this joke?

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Well, they, they're a racist, you know, or we don't know.

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And that's what the hard part is.

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We sometimes don't even take the time to know that through social media

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we're Uniting I immediately through just ideology or the content there.

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But when you have a relationship with someone, you put it in that context.

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and the, that's why, to me, humor can be really dangerous, right?

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Because you're reading the room.

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Like I preach all kinds of different churches and if the pastors a very

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sincere person and doesn't have really a strong sense of humor, the

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congregation is just like that pastor.

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So I can tell a joke in that room and they just stare at me or I see it

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like, I will do, okay, I'd do this.

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I'd say, before I start preaching, I wanna tell you 10

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things I hate about your pastor.

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I.

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Now what I'm going to do is make fun of myself that this is, nothing's

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gonna be negative, but people without a sense of humor immediately.

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what?

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How can you and what I'll say, is your pastor's interesting?

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He makes me look boring.

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something like that makes, he's so kind and I'm not as kind.

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But man, can you tell if you should stop using humor and those first

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jokes, if you've got a guy who laughs at everything, you're like,

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the congregation's gonna be a riot.

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I can just joke and they'll have a blast.

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anyway, humor

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works that way.

Doug Bursch: 00:12:36

Ministry for me is probably the opposite than you.

Doug Bursch: 00:12:38

Like I grew up in a.

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Church, I mean in Christian community.

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And the home was more sacred than the church.

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So to me, the most spiritual man I ever met is my father.

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And my father's a public school teacher and he's really been my pastor.

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So when I went to church, church was more like confirming or not

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confirming what was going on at home.

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And in fact, if I had gone to a church and the experience was

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just terrible and they called that Christianity, I wouldn't believe them

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because I know what Christianity is.

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I found it in my home.

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And so that's really impacted how I minister to people.

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'cause I actually minister to a lot of people who've been hurt by the church.

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And that's helped me learn something because for many of

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those people, that is all of it.

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That's the expression they found.

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Christ, they grew in Christ.

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They were deeply wounded by people.

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and so it's so hard to detangle those things.

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For me, it is easier to detangle my faith from the church.

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And so I've also worked a lot on trying to reform the church.

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I feel very unsuccessfully doing that, but that's been my heart,

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how we talk, how we communicate.

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And then as I've grown older and the Internet's helped me with this,

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seeing more problems and hurts and seeing the extreme abuse that I was

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not aware of, it's given me a much greater sensitivity to why some people

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will never step in a church again.

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and shouldn't because of the wounds that they face.

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they need community at some level.

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But I take seriously that if you've been that wounded by people who should love

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you, that there's a reason you, when you, someone says, do you go to church?

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you snarl at them and say, I would never step through those doors again.

Tim Winders: 00:14:15

I, I think there's, alright.

Tim Winders: 00:14:17

I like where this is going because I think this is going to be

Tim Winders: 00:14:22

helpful for me and I think this is helpful for the conversation.

Tim Winders: 00:14:25

One of the things that I have found, Doug, is that I.

Tim Winders: 00:14:30

Have had this very similar, I don't even know if mission is the right word, but at

Tim Winders: 00:14:38

times what we call the church, and I want to use that term, I wanna use it that way.

Tim Winders: 00:14:44

Instead of, a lot of people when you, when all of a sudden you mention the

Tim Winders: 00:14:47

word church, just like when you start making jokes about their pastor, they

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get wide-eyed and they go, oh my gosh.

Tim Winders: 00:14:55

blasphemy, things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:14:56

And I wanna say this, when I'm making these comments, it's about buildings

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and these places that we have written the word church on the outside of

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it, they, they may be the church.

Tim Winders: 00:15:10

I don't know if they are or not, but I've been on kind of a mission

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because really pisses me off what I see going on right now.

Tim Winders: 00:15:18

and it really ticks me off because I've seen time and time again.

Tim Winders: 00:15:23

You know, someone would say, oh, Tim, it sounds like you've been through

Tim Winders: 00:15:25

church, church May maybe I have.

Tim Winders: 00:15:28

I don't really, I'm not really wired to, I don't wanna say I'm not wired

Tim Winders: 00:15:32

to feel that if I've been through it, that doesn't sound right either, but

Tim Winders: 00:15:35

it, I was saved in a business setting.

Tim Winders: 00:15:38

I'll go ahead and get this out there so you understand it.

Tim Winders: 00:15:41

The people that have listened in know I went in and out of a church,

Tim Winders: 00:15:46

but that wasn't gonna take for me because I wasn't attracted to it.

Tim Winders: 00:15:50

They didn't speak my language.

Tim Winders: 00:15:51

I didn't like the mamby pamby pastor speaking from the front or anything.

Tim Winders: 00:15:55

I'm sure that wasn't you or anything, but, I didn't like any of that

Doug Bursch: 00:15:58

I,

Doug Bursch: 00:15:58

am pretty namby pamby, but.

Tim Winders: 00:16:00

yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:16:00

, and so I, I was saved in a business setting at one of these MLM functions

Tim Winders: 00:16:04

that many people call a cult.

Tim Winders: 00:16:06

And so that's where I was, where I met Jesus, and that, that was my paradigm.

Tim Winders: 00:16:10

I wanna ask big picture question, and then maybe we'll drill down even more.

Tim Winders: 00:16:14

Do we have the structure right?

Tim Winders: 00:16:16

is there something wrong with the way we're structuring what we call the church

Tim Winders: 00:16:21

in first world Americanized culture.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:25

I would say yes, but that'll always be the case.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:28

And, and

Doug Bursch: 00:16:29

I, my first book, the Community of God, I talk about that we

Doug Bursch: 00:16:31

have this concept of utopia.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:34

and utopia literally means not a place, if you look at the word, it doesn't exist.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:39

Utopia is not no such place.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:40

I think that's what it means.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:42

And we have these ideas, of what we want the church to be.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:45

And I, again, I'm not trying to minimize churches that should be

Doug Bursch: 00:16:48

shut down, closed and bulldozed over because of the harm they've done.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:51

So I'm not just saying, Hey, you just gotta deal with

Doug Bursch: 00:16:53

hurts and people are messy.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:54

And I think I get what you're talking about.

Doug Bursch: 00:16:56

There's some incredibly, not just in some churches, but in, I think

Doug Bursch: 00:17:01

in even the whole denominational settings that are really toxic.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:04

Some basic foundations, power dynamics that are just terrible.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:08

I talk a lot about this in the community of God, which is interesting.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:11

This is before a lot of the stuff has more come out and united and all the

Doug Bursch: 00:17:15

documentaries we see, that are out there.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:18

But, I, I think at some level I believe this to be true, we are

Doug Bursch: 00:17:22

formed in community Christians.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:24

the Bible doesn't Start with the individual first and

Doug Bursch: 00:17:27

then go to the community.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:28

It's always both.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:31

In fact, if there was only one person on earth, you ever hear the evangelist

Doug Bursch: 00:17:34

say that if there was only one person on Earth, Christ would've died for you.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:37

I think if there was only one person on Earth, God would've created another

Doug Bursch: 00:17:40

person because for us to understand God, God at some level is community.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:45

And don't worry, I'm not some sort of wacko here.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:47

I have Trinitarian uh, theology.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:51

I was on the doctrine committee for a denomination I used to be in.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:54

I was the lead reviser of their doctrine books.

Doug Bursch: 00:17:56

So I'm doctrinally sound in this, at least in their consideration.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:01

But God is community.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:02

Three persons in one.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:03

This mystery of the Trinity, one God.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:06

Three persons.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:07

So God is relationship, God is community.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:10

And at some level, for us to understand the community of God, we need to

Doug Bursch: 00:18:14

be in some sort of relationship.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:16

It's different than it is with our concept of Father, son, and Holy Spirit.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:20

But the Bible doesn't back away from that, that it's not good for us to be alone.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:25

We're supposed to be in community dependent upon each other.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:28

In fact, much of why Jesus ministered in community that's

Doug Bursch: 00:18:31

how we're supposed to minister.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:32

We'll say, well, he had disciples because he was making you know

Doug Bursch: 00:18:37

Jesus', and he's gonna help them and then they're gonna do what he does.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:39

That's not why Jesus had disciples.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:40

Jesus had disciples because it would've been sin for him to minister alone.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:45

No human is supposed to minister alone.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:47

So that's the part where I challenge people who've been hurt

Doug Bursch: 00:18:50

by the church regardless of the structural concept of the church.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:54

We need to be in community.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:55

Now.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:55

That can be what I.

Doug Bursch: 00:18:57

three people at your house, is to me at some level where you're together.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:01

you're focusing on Jesus, focusing on the gospel, and maybe you

Doug Bursch: 00:19:05

disagree with some of these things.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:06

Well, whatever you believe theologically, you're coming together and you're focusing

Doug Bursch: 00:19:09

in on that, and then people can feed into your life and you can feed into theirs.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:13

Now, I tend to think the group needs to be big enough that you

Doug Bursch: 00:19:16

can be annoyed by people and small enough that you can know people.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:20

Because if you just structure stuff around, you know the people you like.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:24

I don't know if you're really gonna get the heart of God with

Doug Bursch: 00:19:26

concepts of grace and love.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:27

And this is what I see with some of the megachurch people.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:30

They've been hurt by megachurches.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:32

So they take the friends that they got at the megachurch and then they hive

Doug Bursch: 00:19:36

off and they have this safe, wonderful community where they can talk about

Doug Bursch: 00:19:39

what's wrong with that megachurch.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:40

that's a part of it.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:41

But you gotta open that group to the annoying person, to the person

Doug Bursch: 00:19:45

who has mental health issues, to the poor person who needs help, or

Doug Bursch: 00:19:49

the rich person's a little arrogant.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:50

And you gotta find a way to tell 'em it's not all about money.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:54

So that's the kind of stuff I talk with as far as the structures of our church.

Doug Bursch: 00:19:58

Every structure becomes corrupted with power in people, and I tend

Doug Bursch: 00:20:02

to be very cynical in that sense.

Doug Bursch: 00:20:04

I've had this idea that I was gonna change structures and, every time I've tried it,

Doug Bursch: 00:20:07

it hasn't gone very well, but I think, I'm gonna stand before the Lord, like Shadrach

Doug Bursch: 00:20:12

MHA and ab Bendigo and say, I'm not gonna bow down I, I think you'll rescue me.

Doug Bursch: 00:20:15

But even if you don't, I'm not gonna bow down to those structures and systems.

Doug Bursch: 00:20:18

So I've made choices even recently where it's impacted me greatly financially,

Doug Bursch: 00:20:24

uh, in, in the point where barely making it financially, giving up all kinds

Doug Bursch: 00:20:30

of opportunities because ultimately I'm gonna stand before the Lord.

Doug Bursch: 00:20:34

This life's very short, and I don't want to ever trade my faith with God

Doug Bursch: 00:20:38

so that I can work within some sort of system denominational structure.

Doug Bursch: 00:20:42

Uh, whatever, whatever, structure defines us,

Tim Winders: 00:20:45

I agree with all of that.

Tim Winders: 00:20:46

I agree with everything because it bothers me that I.

Tim Winders: 00:20:54

we travel, Doug, we're we live in our motor coach.

Tim Winders: 00:20:57

We've been traveling now for over 10 years.

Tim Winders: 00:21:00

We pop in and out of, we popped in and out of churches for a while, and then the

Tim Winders: 00:21:05

more I popped in and out of churches, I got tired of the mindset in most churches.

Tim Winders: 00:21:10

I'll just say this, this is not all was, this is where God is.

Tim Winders: 00:21:15

This is where you need to be.

Tim Winders: 00:21:16

You need to be here 24 7.

Tim Winders: 00:21:17

We open up the doors.

Tim Winders: 00:21:19

By the way, would you like to be in charge of the parking lot ministry because you

Tim Winders: 00:21:22

seem like someone who's somewhat fit and you could get up early on Sunday mornings.

Tim Winders: 00:21:27

And I only slightly joke about that.

Tim Winders: 00:21:29

And yes, there was some sarcasm and cynicism in that statement,

Tim Winders: 00:21:33

but, and I just started thinking to myself, I don't think.

Tim Winders: 00:21:38

This is correct and so maybe, and maybe this is where you're at landing right now.

Tim Winders: 00:21:43

I'm just, we spend a lot, my wife and I spend a lot of personal time.

Tim Winders: 00:21:47

I, we are digging down into things that, that we may or may not have

Tim Winders: 00:21:52

dug into spiritually with, you know, attending some type of structure.

Tim Winders: 00:21:57

And I'm pulling for the structure.

Tim Winders: 00:21:59

I really do want the structure to work.

Tim Winders: 00:22:01

I just, I don't

Doug Bursch: 00:22:02

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:03

Well, and here's the thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:04

I think it, it really is about it.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:06

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:06

I think it's about relationship.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:07

For instance, I'll always be involved in a church community.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:10

That's just a calling thing for me.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:11

So the moment I stopped pastoring, I was, I took a couple weeks off

Doug Bursch: 00:22:15

just 'cause I hadn't not gone to church for three weeks and 24 years.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:19

Like, I pastored the same church for 24 years.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:21

I was like, what does this feel like?

Doug Bursch: 00:22:23

But then that was a spirit led thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:24

if I were to put this in someone else that would me being an intermediary

Doug Bursch: 00:22:27

and I don't believe it's my job to be someone's Holy Spirit.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:30

So for me, I prayed and we had brought into a community where

Doug Bursch: 00:22:34

now I go to this Lutheran church and it's not Pentecostal, but.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:37

Relationally, we know we're called to minister with those people.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:39

Because I talk about this in the book community of God, I don't

Doug Bursch: 00:22:42

think you go to a church like, how does this meet my needs?

Doug Bursch: 00:22:44

You go based on, how can I minister in this community and be of value?

Doug Bursch: 00:22:48

So often you're called to places that don't have what you want.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:51

people used to leave our church 'cause they'd say, oh, we love

Doug Bursch: 00:22:53

you, pastor, but you know, you just don't have enough for our children.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:56

our children, we were, we're concerned about their faith.

Doug Bursch: 00:22:58

And I wanted to say to them, oh, I'm so glad you're leaving.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:00

My kids have to stay here, so they're probably gonna go to hell.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:03

But if you can escape, if you can, just that concept, and that's the

Doug Bursch: 00:23:08

American concept, that I need certain things to be okay, which is not true.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:11

you don't, and we all know that in relationships we've committed to, you

Doug Bursch: 00:23:15

commit to there, there's boundaries in a marriage where there's reasons

Doug Bursch: 00:23:18

to divorce and there's reasons that you should no longer be with someone.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:21

But we all have this commitment thing that says the commitment is

Doug Bursch: 00:23:24

bigger than the difficulties, right?

Doug Bursch: 00:23:26

And then you learn to live within those difficulties.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:29

In, in olden days, you had two churches in town and they had a

Doug Bursch: 00:23:32

graveyard next door, and people would get a plot next door to the church.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:35

No one would do that today.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:37

'cause it would require a commitment, that no one wants to make.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:40

Now, all kinds of problems with that.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:42

And so I'm not saying people have to commit for life to a community, but

Doug Bursch: 00:23:46

for me, that's the decision I've made.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:48

I think this is one of the biggest problems with the church

Doug Bursch: 00:23:50

and why we're seeing corruption.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:52

this is just one of many I see the documentaries as well.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:54

I have friends who've been hurt by the church.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:55

I, most of the people online Christians I deal with no longer

Doug Bursch: 00:23:58

go to church have been hurt.

Doug Bursch: 00:23:59

But they'll say, but you're okay.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:01

I don't like any of those other pastors, but I'll talk to you thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:04

Um, I know like in the denominational setting, I was in.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:08

No matter how you look at it, and this happens across the board, larger

Doug Bursch: 00:24:12

churches go into positions of power.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:14

pastors of larger churches get platformed more, and we use church

Doug Bursch: 00:24:19

growth as an assessment for health.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:21

And the idea is if it's growing, it's healthy or we do this.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:24

If a church is growing.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:27

Then if there are problems, we downplay those problems because we'll

Doug Bursch: 00:24:30

say, clearly God has blessed this church so God wouldn't bless this

Doug Bursch: 00:24:34

church and allow for those problems.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:36

I saw that with Mark Driscoll in Seattle, and I'm not saying something

Doug Bursch: 00:24:39

out of there's whole, Christianity Today did a whole podcast series on him.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:42

I interviewed Mark.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:44

Uh, I tried to be very gracious and kind with Mark throughout his

Doug Bursch: 00:24:48

tenure in Seattle, even though he was very arrogant and is very arrogant.

Doug Bursch: 00:24:53

But I would see in Mark, my issue for Mark is he had growth as a young

Doug Bursch: 00:24:57

man, and I think he equated that growth where I must be blessed.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:00

And so then he minimized all his faults.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:03

Now that those faults could have been 1% of his personality or 10% of

Doug Bursch: 00:25:08

his personality, it doesn't matter.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:10

Once you justify and codify and sanctify faults, and I

Doug Bursch: 00:25:14

call these satanic footholds.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:16

then incredible evil can occur.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:19

And if you look in most church corruptions, that's what happens.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:22

Well, well, he's a good guy and he's a good preacher.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:24

And look at all the good he's done.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:26

And yeah, there was that accusation about, women or, yeah, he, sometimes

Doug Bursch: 00:25:30

he has a temper, but you know, God's anointed sometimes, you know, all

Doug Bursch: 00:25:33

the garbage that we use to justify that is a problem in my own life.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:38

And it's a problem in a leader's life.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:40

And so we put a leader in a position.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:42

I think we even do this with our national leaders outside the church.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:45

I think we're going through seasons like that where we're seeing that

Doug Bursch: 00:25:47

people will justify depravity if they get what they want, or if

Doug Bursch: 00:25:52

80% of it is good or 90% is good.

Doug Bursch: 00:25:54

And we, that is, that happens in structures and then in structures

Doug Bursch: 00:25:59

where you then can't remove the person or the consequences.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:03

I'll even get at this.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:05

With, with abuse in homes, sometimes people say, why

Doug Bursch: 00:26:08

didn't they deal with abuse?

Doug Bursch: 00:26:09

Like someone will talk about abuse.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:11

had a friend who, when she was like 23, she talked about being abused

Doug Bursch: 00:26:15

when she was, in fifth grade and people were like, well, why didn't

Doug Bursch: 00:26:18

you just talk about it earlier?

Doug Bursch: 00:26:19

Well, the moment she shared that.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:22

The family just fell apart because the abuse was in the family.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:25

Suddenly people knew about it and everything changed, and there

Doug Bursch: 00:26:28

were parts of that family that she didn't want to fall apart.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:32

And this is what happens in churches.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:33

Like, I like this community.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:35

I, we, there are good relationships and I know if we confront this thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:40

This place is going to be devastated.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:42

I'm not saying this is a good reason to do this, but this is why people do that.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:47

and they wait.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:48

And then the foothill, footholds get greater and the hidden is

Doug Bursch: 00:26:51

even more hidden than we realize.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:53

Uh, so that's the big stuff.

Doug Bursch: 00:26:55

The other stuff just about an arrogant leader who's controlling people

Doug Bursch: 00:26:59

and all those money dynamics, all those praising people for growth.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:03

We need different measurements, I think.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:06

And I think they're more, and, and I think you and I have connected on

Doug Bursch: 00:27:08

this probably a lot through Twitter is the spirit in which we communicate.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:11

That for me is everything.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:13

Uh, there, there was a presidential candidate when he was among 10 other

Doug Bursch: 00:27:17

candidates where I was like, I will never vote for this person based on

Doug Bursch: 00:27:20

his attitude, just his spirit alone.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:23

And I remember Christians going, he's not a pastor, he's a politician.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:27

if you think that depending upon your role, you can no longer be

Doug Bursch: 00:27:30

Christ-like, or no longer be loving.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:33

then we're in trouble.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:34

And I think there's a part of the church like that.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:36

Well, if he's a leader, he can be a jerk in certain situations.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:40

'cause he's a leader and if Christ showed us anything, it's the exact opposite.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:44

It's he, although above all, he lowered himself and became nothing.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:48

And the servant of all.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:49

So how many people wanna be in leadership positions and be servant of all?

Doug Bursch: 00:27:53

That's probably another problem with any institution and structure.

Doug Bursch: 00:27:57

I thought I wanted to be a servant, but even there, there's an arrogance of,

Doug Bursch: 00:28:01

I get fed by a, do you like my sermon?

Doug Bursch: 00:28:03

Do you not like my sermon?

Doug Bursch: 00:28:04

The ego is so much in intertwined in these gatherings that I think we need

Doug Bursch: 00:28:10

to at least have much more conversation where people can come in and say, Hey

Doug Bursch: 00:28:13

Doug, you're getting a little this and I don't cast them out of the church,

Doug Bursch: 00:28:17

or they don't fire me immediately.

Doug Bursch: 00:28:18

We need to have environments where we can have those discussions.

Tim Winders: 00:28:22

I've always, I've been saying for some time now that I'm

Tim Winders: 00:28:25

not sure that men, most men can handle the mantle of leadership.

Tim Winders: 00:28:33

Once it gets to a certain point, it crosses over.

Tim Winders: 00:28:36

Now we don't wanna go down this controversial path.

Tim Winders: 00:28:38

I think women can handle it better.

Tim Winders: 00:28:40

Truthfully, . But most men, we have a tendency, it feeds us.

Tim Winders: 00:28:44

feeds us.

Doug Bursch: 00:28:45

Well, and Kate.

Doug Bursch: 00:28:45

And why is that?

Doug Bursch: 00:28:46

Just say there's no gender difference there.

Doug Bursch: 00:28:48

There might be, let's just say there isn't.

Doug Bursch: 00:28:50

One

Doug Bursch: 00:28:50

of the things women have had to do for thousands and thousands of years is work

Doug Bursch: 00:28:54

with, in situations where they didn't have power, they had to find ways to work where

Doug Bursch: 00:28:59

they weren't the leader, they had no a.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:00

Authority in the culture.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:01

And so they found ways to figure out what's important and

Doug Bursch: 00:29:04

central and what's secondary.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:05

seen this women will work through, in the church, they'll work through conflicts.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:09

They'll work through, they'll talk about, 'cause they've had

Doug Bursch: 00:29:11

to do that in so many settings.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:14

Men be the controller of their home, controller of their

Doug Bursch: 00:29:17

house, control it, right?

Doug Bursch: 00:29:18

The moment someone challenges, like when two men get in a fight, they both leave

Doug Bursch: 00:29:22

and no one ever talks to anybody again.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:24

they're just gone.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:25

So I think that is one of the reasons why a healthier, diverse

Doug Bursch: 00:29:29

expression within the church.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:31

And I do believe women should be pastors, but even if you didn't

Doug Bursch: 00:29:33

believe that theologically, you better have women in every role of

Doug Bursch: 00:29:37

being able to speak and communicate.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:39

And because I've found men tend to struggle more with the communication

Doug Bursch: 00:29:45

issues often because they didn't have to.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:46

They could just go to role, they could go to position, and they could go to power.

Doug Bursch: 00:29:50

When you don't have position, role, and power, Then you have to learn how

Doug Bursch: 00:29:54

to talk to people and those are the kinds of people you want in positions

Doug Bursch: 00:29:58

of authority or they've learned how to communicate their emotions, to communicate

Doug Bursch: 00:30:02

their ideas and not just be, I'm the boss, so take it, love it, or leave it.

Doug Bursch: 00:30:06

Like they don't ever get to do that.

Doug Bursch: 00:30:07

And so they don't do it in the position of power because they

Doug Bursch: 00:30:10

found other ways to communicate.

Tim Winders: 00:30:12

I love that

Doug Bursch: 00:30:13

Is that too political?

Tim Winders: 00:30:14

no.

Tim Winders: 00:30:14

Because that, I think we're about to go down there a little

Tim Winders: 00:30:17

bit deeper because I wanna.

Tim Winders: 00:30:18

I wanna ask questions about it 'cause I think it's very informative,

Tim Winders: 00:30:21

the direction we're headed here.

Tim Winders: 00:30:23

I love that you brought up the Mars Hill, the Mark Driscoll and I guess

Tim Winders: 00:30:28

I did know you were in that part of the country and so you probably

Tim Winders: 00:30:31

have some unique perspective and, and it was really interesting.

Tim Winders: 00:30:35

I'll also bring up one other situation that we became aware of.

Tim Winders: 00:30:38

We, my wife and I spent about nine months over in Australia and New Zealand back

Tim Winders: 00:30:43

in 2014, it was a very unique time.

Tim Winders: 00:30:48

We were popping in and out of churches over there, and we popped in and out of

Tim Winders: 00:30:51

about eight campuses of Hillsong and we were there when, When Brian Houston, it

Tim Winders: 00:31:00

came out, again, some issues with his father and some, Pedophilia and different

Tim Winders: 00:31:06

things like that with his father.

Tim Winders: 00:31:08

so we were there when he was addressing those issues.

Tim Winders: 00:31:12

And I wanna say it was very similar to what you just brought up, or at

Tim Winders: 00:31:15

least it sounded that way at the time.

Tim Winders: 00:31:19

I wanna say that, that it sounded as if, listen, we're, we're trying to address

Tim Winders: 00:31:23

this as best we can in light of this is an organization that we also wanna

Tim Winders: 00:31:30

keep it intact and not just blow it up.

Tim Winders: 00:31:32

So that I'll, that's a little bit

Doug Bursch: 00:31:34

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 00:31:35

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:31:35

the way I said that.

Tim Winders: 00:31:36

But the reason I bring it up is I've seen situations and

Tim Winders: 00:31:39

I'm, I'm an executive coach.

Tim Winders: 00:31:41

I work with leaders of organizations and things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:31:44

So leadership is what I try to study and have some degree of

Tim Winders: 00:31:48

knowledge of my observation with a Mark Driscoll or almost any.

Tim Winders: 00:31:54

Organization that I see where someone starts, what we'll call

Tim Winders: 00:31:59

a startup or a church plant.

Tim Winders: 00:32:02

It begins growing.

Tim Winders: 00:32:04

You use the word growth and I'm sometimes wondering if maybe growth is

Tim Winders: 00:32:08

something that we should be pursuing.

Tim Winders: 00:32:10

It needs, it doesn't need to be the idol that we make it, but that's what

Tim Winders: 00:32:14

we measure in our culture and society is how many people are sitting in the seats?

Tim Winders: 00:32:18

What kind of money, what does the building look like, things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:32:21

I perceive that at some point, let's just use look at Mark for

Tim Winders: 00:32:24

example, that he was really pure of heart with what he was doing.

Tim Winders: 00:32:28

It was building, building, building, building, and somewhere

Tim Winders: 00:32:31

along the way it seems like.

Tim Winders: 00:32:33

Something flipped and he moved into protection mode instead

Tim Winders: 00:32:38

of what is God doing here mode.

Tim Winders: 00:32:41

And I know that might be oversimplifying, but when I have run into struggles

Tim Winders: 00:32:45

with leaders just that I work with or that I see personally, Doug, what

Tim Winders: 00:32:51

I see is, is they've gotten in the mode of I need to protect this entity,

Tim Winders: 00:32:57

this organism, this organization, and I need to protect it at all costs.

Tim Winders: 00:33:02

We're doing good, we're getting people baptized, we're people are being healed.

Tim Winders: 00:33:06

This is happening, whatever it's, we're selling Apple watches, whatever it is

Tim Winders: 00:33:09

we're doing, and I need to protect it.

Tim Winders: 00:33:14

I think that is when things get pretty toxic and dangerous.

Tim Winders: 00:33:17

What are your thoughts on that or observations?

Tim Winders: 00:33:19

You could tell me I'm wrong.

Tim Winders: 00:33:20

If you think I'm wrong, I'm okay with it.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:23

Oh, you're completely wrong.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:24

No, I think you're hitting right at some of those issues there.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:27

Really.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:28

Um, .I would love to write a book on this of, in Romans, the beginning of Romans.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:33

Paul says that one of the sins that humans did, and it's confusion, is

Doug Bursch: 00:33:37

he talking about all of humanities?

Doug Bursch: 00:33:38

Is he talking about Israel?

Doug Bursch: 00:33:40

He says they worshiped and served the created instead of the creator.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:45

And some translations say the creature, but I think created works just with

Doug Bursch: 00:33:50

the Greek, it's just hard to know.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:51

It's like Dick and Jane language.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:53

there's not a lot of modifiers.

Doug Bursch: 00:33:54

You don't quite know what it says, but this image of Humans begin to

Doug Bursch: 00:33:59

serve the created versus the creator.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:01

So we see that from the very beginning.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:03

What is, we've got Cain and Abel and, one understands that they get

Doug Bursch: 00:34:09

their provision from the creator.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:10

The other one is I don't need the creator.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:12

Like this concept of Solomon is, gets wisdom.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:15

And what does it use his wisdom for, to pick up women, he's, he like,

Doug Bursch: 00:34:18

he uses what was created Moses, God has him, bring water from the rock.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:24

And then he begins to realize, I can do this without God.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:26

And so he hits the rock and we go, what is that about?

Doug Bursch: 00:34:28

Why is God so concerned with that?

Doug Bursch: 00:34:30

They begin to use what was created in them and they use it for themselves

Doug Bursch: 00:34:33

instead of for the creator.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:35

We have David takes a census and why does he take a census?

Doug Bursch: 00:34:38

Like at some level, God has done all this, but now he's worried I gotta control this

Doug Bursch: 00:34:43

thing and I gotta see how powerful we are.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:46

And so whatever the reason is, he begins to serve the created.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:49

One of the worst things that can happen to you as a Christian as

Doug Bursch: 00:34:52

far as for your faith is you can have your prayers be answered.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:54

Because once your prayers are answered, you can serve the answered

Doug Bursch: 00:34:57

prayer instead of the creator.

Doug Bursch: 00:34:59

And I saw this again and again in 24 years of ministry, when someone is destitute,

Doug Bursch: 00:35:03

a drug addict, no one likes them.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:05

Their kids have kicked them out, or their parents have kicked them

Doug Bursch: 00:35:08

outta their home, they'll come into the church, broken, have nothing.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:11

Jesus accepts them.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:12

they get their life back in order, right?

Doug Bursch: 00:35:14

They get a job.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:15

Maybe they get a relationship and they get married and maybe they have kids.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:19

And what you begin to see as God begins to create beautiful things

Doug Bursch: 00:35:23

in their life, instead of serving the Creator, they begin to serve

Doug Bursch: 00:35:26

the things that God has given them.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:28

They begin to serve the marriage over God, the kids over God, the money over God.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:32

I would say that's what happens with these ministries that grow.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:35

I don't wanna just say they were always wicked, terrible people.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:37

And I, there are people who are just out there to try to swindle.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:41

But I think what happens is, something happens and they see miracles and then

Doug Bursch: 00:35:45

they begin to see, well, look what I did.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:47

Or they begin to take it and be like, this is mine to do what I want with, or

Doug Bursch: 00:35:52

this means I have a special authority.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:53

And so they begin to serve the creator instead of the creator.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:56

I think Christians need to understand this.

Doug Bursch: 00:35:58

Christians have a difficult time, let's say with science.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:01

Science is the best example of God has created us, and now we have this amazing

Doug Bursch: 00:36:06

capacity as humans to do amazing things.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:08

what should the scientists do?

Doug Bursch: 00:36:09

Stop being a scientist.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:10

No, they should just thank God for that capacity.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:13

I thank God that he is giving me this amazing mind to do these things.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:17

What happens sometimes in the scientific community and God's dead, and it's

Doug Bursch: 00:36:20

just about me and how great I am.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:22

So now we have Christians going.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:23

I don't believe those scientists because it's just all about, it's separated from

Doug Bursch: 00:36:28

God and versus like, I thank you for what they've learned and I'm gonna thank

Doug Bursch: 00:36:32

God that God helped these scientists come with this cure, or come with this

Doug Bursch: 00:36:35

vaccine, or whatever those issues are.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:36

So if you look at all these issues of corruption, often it's an Americans, why

Doug Bursch: 00:36:41

wouldn't the American church be corrupted?

Doug Bursch: 00:36:43

Is that we're very prosperous and the more prosperous we become,

Doug Bursch: 00:36:46

we begin to serve the prosperity.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:48

If you were to even argue that America itself is a sign of God's prosperity.

Doug Bursch: 00:36:53

So to me, nationalism is that kind of form of, well, we like this so much and we

Doug Bursch: 00:36:59

have these special gifts, we're just gonna use it for ourselves and we're gonna make

Doug Bursch: 00:37:02

sure no one else in the world gets it.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:03

if we truly are a blessed nation, then we've been blessed

Doug Bursch: 00:37:06

to bless all other nations.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:09

And so that would mean that whatever prosperity we have, it's for the

Doug Bursch: 00:37:12

purpose of sharing it with all peoples.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:13

but that's not how we talk about it.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:15

We're gonna say, this is mine, and I want this.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:17

We have so that nature of serving the creative versus the creative.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:21

So I think that happened with Mark as you gain that power and that authority.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:25

The other thing I've seen with pastors, pastors, and this is I bet you this is

Doug Bursch: 00:37:29

true of businesses as well, when you're very successful at the beginning, you

Doug Bursch: 00:37:33

do less assessing of what's wrong.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:36

you just try to maintain the thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:38

You just try to keep it going and they're spending like things are going and

Doug Bursch: 00:37:41

they don't want to mess with anything.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:43

So it's just maintain, and I've seen this in businesses, I've seen this

Doug Bursch: 00:37:46

and, but when you've not done well in the beginning, when you launch

Doug Bursch: 00:37:50

something and no one shows up and it's not successful in the eyes of anyone,

Doug Bursch: 00:37:54

including yourself, what do you do?

Doug Bursch: 00:37:56

Well, you begin to assess everything.

Doug Bursch: 00:37:59

And in assessment, you begin to also learn and mature.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:03

So what I would see of some of these leaders who had led these really

Doug Bursch: 00:38:07

large growing churches is I think they lacked spiritual maturity.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:11

And by the way, I've minister, I've, I don't know, I've interviewed

Doug Bursch: 00:38:14

hundreds of pastors, national leaders.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:17

I've five years at a radio show.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:19

a lot of guys, even the last few years that there's been a

Doug Bursch: 00:38:21

lot of prominence about them.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:22

And I didn't find a greater maturity in those people.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:25

And in fact, sometimes I found a simplicity, which I guess is okay,

Doug Bursch: 00:38:30

but these are the people that were saying, follow them, read their books.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:33

But I found people who really didn't have to struggle with what a lot of

Doug Bursch: 00:38:38

other people had to struggle with.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:39

The children of Israel are not formed in the promised Land.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:42

They're formed in the wilderness.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:45

And when we platform people who don't truly have wilderness experiences,

Doug Bursch: 00:38:49

they're kind of dangerous.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:51

And so my dad used to say this to me.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:54

He'd say, I get it that elders can be 20 years old.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:57

I understand the concept.

Doug Bursch: 00:38:58

God can speak through anyone, he said, but some of your elders gotta be old

Doug Bursch: 00:39:03

because they've gone through this enough.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:06

They've experienced loss, they've experienced deaths, disappointments,

Doug Bursch: 00:39:10

and if they still love Jesus, then that person has some authority to speak.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:14

And I see that in a lot of the platforming of leaders.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:17

And then they, what do they do?

Doug Bursch: 00:39:19

they grow and then they get a conflict.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:20

And now they have all this stuff.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:22

They can't admit that they've been doing things wrong for the last 20 years.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:25

So then they justify everything.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:27

they don't grow as individuals.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:29

They don't, even like we mentioned Mark earlier, and I get hesitant even, 'cause

Doug Bursch: 00:39:33

I don't want Mark Driscoll to set the agenda of ano another conversation, but I

Doug Bursch: 00:39:36

always talked as if Mark was in the room.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:39

And I hope I'm doing this even now.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:41

To me, mark lost his authority.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:43

The authority he wanted to have impact that no matter what he does in life, he'll

Doug Bursch: 00:39:47

always be seen as this person who harmed so many people and refused to reconcile.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:52

Because what he did in Seattle is they were putting him on a discipline process.

Doug Bursch: 00:39:56

The goal was to restore, but he had to admit that he had faults, big faults.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:01

But instead of going through the process of reconciliation with the

Doug Bursch: 00:40:04

people who had hurt, he had hurt.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:07

He just left that and started something somewhere else.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:09

And that's gonna happen again and again.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:11

So even there, the critique there is stop codifying everything

Doug Bursch: 00:40:16

you've done to this point.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:17

God lives in the eternal.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:19

Now turn to Jesus.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:21

Let him look at all the things that you know are broken and

Doug Bursch: 00:40:23

this is the ideological part.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:25

Maybe this could never happen, but That's still my heart for him.

Doug Bursch: 00:40:29

Not to toss him out, but for him to go through the process of reconciliation,

Doug Bursch: 00:40:33

which might mean he's never a pastor again, but at least he's in right

Doug Bursch: 00:40:37

relationship with the thousands of people that were harmed based on

Doug Bursch: 00:40:41

the ministry that he did in Seattle

Tim Winders: 00:40:44

I do wonder if sometimes we have people that

Tim Winders: 00:40:46

they box themselves in a corner.

Tim Winders: 00:40:48

You mentioned this.

Tim Winders: 00:40:49

I think they get elevated.

Tim Winders: 00:40:51

They get elevated, and then they look around and they go.

Tim Winders: 00:40:54

Hmm.

Tim Winders: 00:40:55

I don't think I could do anything else, or

Tim Winders: 00:40:58

I don't think I could ever have the impact or, uh, people are gonna find

Tim Winders: 00:41:03

out that I'm a fraud or, we could just

Doug Bursch: 00:41:07

Oh, Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:41:08

run through the gamut.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:09

can't afford to leave the ministry.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:11

I can't do anything else.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:12

I can't, I know people who have different theologies than what they preach, and

Doug Bursch: 00:41:16

they talk to me privately, but they don't feel like they'd be able to survive.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:20

And I've always thought of anything.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:21

I wanna be in a position where I can turn in that if I'm going

Doug Bursch: 00:41:24

the wrong direction, I can turn.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:25

I never wanna be in a place where I'm stuck.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:28

I have so much debt, I have so much, whatever.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:30

Uh, now maybe other people don't have that luxury.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:33

But you've hit it.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:34

They, or even psychologically, because they've been propping up.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:39

A myth, like not all of it's a myth, but they've been propping a myth that

Doug Bursch: 00:41:43

they're a good person, a myth that they're

Doug Bursch: 00:41:46

whatever it is.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:46

and they would have to come to true repentance and how many people truly

Doug Bursch: 00:41:50

repent and that part of cancel culture.

Doug Bursch: 00:41:53

Like I believe people, pastors can repent, but it doesn't mean they

Doug Bursch: 00:41:57

can be pastors again if they've lost the trust of the communities.

Doug Bursch: 00:42:00

I think that's what first and second Timothy and Titus deal with.

Doug Bursch: 00:42:03

But I do think we do need to have space that people can talk about the

Doug Bursch: 00:42:08

darkness, without just being you're the evil person we never talk to again.

Doug Bursch: 00:42:11

There must be a place where someone can say, I've been

Doug Bursch: 00:42:15

engaging in a behavior where I'm meeting before it all falls apart.

Doug Bursch: 00:42:19

some way to be able to, before it falls apart.

Doug Bursch: 00:42:21

Whether that happens or not, I don't know, but I think you're exactly right.

Doug Bursch: 00:42:24

By the time they get to this place, They still should turn, but it's so

Doug Bursch: 00:42:28

hard to turn to quit to change because they've invested so much in it.

Doug Bursch: 00:42:32

And then also there's such a trail of darkness that they either have to

Doug Bursch: 00:42:35

justify it or they would just crumble under the weight of what they've done.

Tim Winders: 00:42:39

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:42:39

I think we've seen such, so many rare situations where, number

Tim Winders: 00:42:44

one, we've seen repentance, number two, we've seen something that

Tim Winders: 00:42:49

people would be restoration.

Tim Winders: 00:42:50

I have never liked the six months away from the pulpit.

Tim Winders: 00:42:55

And then you're back in, you've gone through counseling.

Tim Winders: 00:42:58

Here's the microphone again.

Tim Winders: 00:42:59

you're so talented.

Tim Winders: 00:43:00

You're such a great speaker.

Tim Winders: 00:43:02

We've got to have you in the pulpit.

Tim Winders: 00:43:04

That, to me, really just reeks of hypocrisy and, all types of things.

Tim Winders: 00:43:12

But let's do the, I wanna do this, Doug.

Tim Winders: 00:43:14

I want to, because we can talk about the problems all day long,

Tim Winders: 00:43:18

and I don't know that you and I know the solutions, however.

Tim Winders: 00:43:22

Neither one of us are young bucks that are just getting started in life.

Tim Winders: 00:43:26

We've been around the block a few times.

Tim Winders: 00:43:27

how old are you?

Tim Winders: 00:43:28

I'm, you're not a woman.

Tim Winders: 00:43:29

I could ask you that point blank.

Tim Winders: 00:43:30

How old are you?

Doug Bursch: 00:43:32

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:33

I'm trying to think how old I am now.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:34

I think I'm 52.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:36

I

Doug Bursch: 00:43:37

either 52.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:37

or 53.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:38

I was Those who can do math.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:39

I was born January 29th, 1972.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:42

And then you can figure that out depending upon when you're listening to this.

Doug Bursch: 00:43:45

But yeah,

Tim Winders: 00:43:46

1972.

Tim Winders: 00:43:47

I'm trying to think of what was going on there.

Tim Winders: 00:43:48

I was born three days before JFK was shot,

Doug Bursch: 00:43:52

there you go.

Tim Winders: 00:43:52

so

Doug Bursch: 00:43:53

you're part of the conspiracy is that

Tim Winders: 00:43:55

I was there.

Tim Winders: 00:43:56

And,

Doug Bursch: 00:43:57

you're in the

Tim Winders: 00:43:58

the grassy knoll is

Doug Bursch: 00:43:59

there was a pregnant Yeah, that's right.

Tim Winders: 00:44:01

it was not,

Doug Bursch: 00:44:02

A newborn child.

Tim Winders: 00:44:04

real and all that.

Tim Winders: 00:44:05

But I think the thing I'd love for us to discuss here, Doug, with

Tim Winders: 00:44:08

All this wisdom that we have here, I get the impression, tell me

Tim Winders: 00:44:12

if I'm right or wrong, that you have quite a bit of experience.

Tim Winders: 00:44:17

You've put a lot of thought into things.

Tim Winders: 00:44:18

you really, uh, are, are serious even though we joke some about your

Tim Winders: 00:44:25

spiritual walk, but you also don't believe that you know everything.

Tim Winders: 00:44:30

If I'm incorrect on any of that, correct me.

Doug Bursch: 00:44:34

Well here, here's the deal.

Doug Bursch: 00:44:35

Put hook up me to a lie detector.

Doug Bursch: 00:44:38

Probably my subconscious is way more arrogant than my outward like, but I

Doug Bursch: 00:44:43

know that my subconscious is probably a liar 'cause it gives me crazy dreams at

Doug Bursch: 00:44:47

night and I shouldn't trust that guy.

Doug Bursch: 00:44:48

So there's a part of me that certainly has the arrogance of, let me give

Doug Bursch: 00:44:52

you my opinion 'cause it's the most important opinion in the room.

Doug Bursch: 00:44:54

But I just, the nature of it is how could we remotely think that

Doug Bursch: 00:44:59

we understand the fullness of God?

Doug Bursch: 00:45:01

Or even, you know, the, like that part, like how would I even begin to

Doug Bursch: 00:45:07

think, I could say, here's the three things God does, maybe there's four.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:10

it's just absurd.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:12

If I did that for you, if any person said, this is what you

Doug Bursch: 00:45:15

need to believe about Doug.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:16

I.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:17

Just, these are the four things about Doug and we all unite around these four things.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:22

They would be wrong.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:24

Not one group on this planet, even if they gave me an Enneagram test,

Doug Bursch: 00:45:28

could not say, this is who Doug is.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:32

And yet the arrogance to unite around and, just, tell people

Doug Bursch: 00:45:37

they're going to hell because we think we have it all figured out.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:40

Now.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:41

I have strong opinions and I will tell you them, and in some ways I'm very much,

Doug Bursch: 00:45:45

and I believe the Bible's a sacred book and things that people will be like, ah,

Doug Bursch: 00:45:49

boy, you're one of those conservatives.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:51

In fact, I take it all as God's word.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:53

And, but then people go, they'll ask me to parse that out.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:56

And what I mean by that, I go, I don't know what I mean by that.

Doug Bursch: 00:45:58

I just mean that I'm gonna take this as the sacred book and

Doug Bursch: 00:46:01

it's God's fault if it isn't.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:02

Like this is the book that I'm reading and this is the one I believe, and, but

Doug Bursch: 00:46:05

the concept to think that you have it all figured out and I'm still growing.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:10

And I'm still, and I think when you're in the center of God's

Doug Bursch: 00:46:13

grace, you can look at your life.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:15

And I think one of the reasons people don't look at their sins and their

Doug Bursch: 00:46:19

faults and the failings is they don't understand a gospel of grace.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:23

That I believe I'm in the center of God's grace.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:25

I'm not on the edge, and I'm gonna fall off, out into the

Doug Bursch: 00:46:28

abyss of darkness and death.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:30

And if I'm in the center of God's grace and love, then I can

Doug Bursch: 00:46:33

say, search my heart, know me.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:35

And if there'd be any wicked way in me, reveal it.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:38

And that's another problem with these church cultures.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:41

If we don't have that conception, like I would say in our church,

Doug Bursch: 00:46:44

there's no super spiritual people.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:47

We all have the same amount of the spirit.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:49

There's no, there's no, we just do it.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:50

There's no super, I use fairly spiritual as a moniker.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:53

I use, my website is fairly spiritual.org.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:55

It's a play on words.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:56

People say, well, I'm fairly spiritual.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:58

they joke about that.

Doug Bursch: 00:46:59

But the idea is there's no hierarchy of spirituality.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:03

There's no intermediaries.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:04

Now I got opinions, I'm gonna share them.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:06

Do they connect with what God is talking with you about?

Doug Bursch: 00:47:08

Sure.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:09

But if you say, the reason I'm doing this is 'cause Doug said it

Doug Bursch: 00:47:11

in a podcast, you are in trouble.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:14

And I'm in trouble.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:15

So I don't believe that I have it all figured out.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:18

I'm still trying to be open, um, to, help me Lord.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:22

Especially with my own life.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:23

I tend to be, I'm a little dissatisfied with, man, Doug, you could grow in this.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:28

You could be a better husband, you could be a better father.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:30

And I don't wanna be guilt motivated, but I know I have room for growth

Doug Bursch: 00:47:34

and I've never met a person who didn't have room for growth.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:36

And the most scary people are the people who refuse to get help.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:40

The people who refuse to get prayer, the people who never apologize.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:44

Those are the scariest people.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:46

So I don't wanna be associated with that.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:48

I don't want to ever prop up a person, a leader, anyone who is just, look

Doug Bursch: 00:47:53

at how I do it and do it my way.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:55

And I'm the model for success.

Doug Bursch: 00:47:57

I would preach messages where I'm pretty extemporaneous in how I preach.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:01

And I would say something and I'd realize I did it for the wrong reasons.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:04

Like, you can say the right things for the wrong reasons.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:06

And it's sin, it's, in my opinion, this is the old time.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:10

It's sin.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:12

And I would say something and people might shake their head like, that's right.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:15

But I know I'm saying it because I'm upset about something that was done to me.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:18

And I'm saying it 'cause I've been hurt.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:20

And I would stop in the middle of my sermon.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:22

I'd say, you know what I just said?

Doug Bursch: 00:48:24

I apologize for that.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:26

I'm sorry.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:26

I said that out of hurt.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:27

It might be true that people should do this, but I'm saying it because I'm bitter

Doug Bursch: 00:48:32

about some things that have happened in my life and I, forgive me for that.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:36

Or, and people would come up afterwards and say, you didn't have to say that.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:39

That's true.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:40

People should be that way.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:41

But that's to me, how God sees things that the condition of my heart, the

Doug Bursch: 00:48:45

motivation of my heart and the church that doesn't acknowledge that reality

Doug Bursch: 00:48:50

is in trouble where I can look good.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:52

Like in this podcast it can be, I can fool you all, but God knows my heart.

Doug Bursch: 00:48:58

And in my heart I've still got room to grow.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:01

I still have.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:01

And that even that issue, like I'll probably be thinking about.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:05

Doug, be careful.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:06

Do you talk about Mark Driscoll?

Doug Bursch: 00:49:07

Because you're bitter, because you're resentful, because you're, because

Doug Bursch: 00:49:11

no matter what, if you hooked me up to a lie detector that worked

Doug Bursch: 00:49:15

in this context, there's a part of me that is a little resentful.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:18

Shouldn't be, but is he succeeded.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:20

I didn't.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:21

He got the platform.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:23

I didn't, you know what?

Doug Bursch: 00:49:24

It's still there.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:24

And I think as Christians, if we could acknowledge that duplicity in

Doug Bursch: 00:49:28

us, not only do we not have it all figured out, but there's duplicity.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:32

You can say you love someone, but also inwardly be like,

Doug Bursch: 00:49:35

ah, person kind of bothers me.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:36

Like we have to acknowledge that duplicity so God can minister to the whole person.

Doug Bursch: 00:49:41

If we don't, then we allow a part of our personality to be in isolation and

Doug Bursch: 00:49:45

in darkness, and then we're dangerous.

Tim Winders: 00:49:49

So one of the things that is such a challenge in that arena is

Tim Winders: 00:49:57

that we are looking, I don't wanna say we're looking for a savior, but

Tim Winders: 00:50:03

that 'cause that's a little harsh.

Tim Winders: 00:50:06

I think people are looking for saviors in the form of people, let's say mostly men,

Doug Bursch: 00:50:11

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:50:11

and they're looking for that in the form of who's in the

Tim Winders: 00:50:14

pulpit, who's head of my organization, if I'm in a company who's the person

Tim Winders: 00:50:19

sitting in my state house or my White House or things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:50:23

And so one of the things that I think is causing our issues, and

Tim Winders: 00:50:27

we don't definitely know this, is causing the issues over on

Tim Winders: 00:50:30

the social platforms if we go

Doug Bursch: 00:50:32

yeah,

Tim Winders: 00:50:33

is that we are looking for, I don't even, I don't even know if

Tim Winders: 00:50:37

perfection is the right word, Doug, but we're looking for people to look up to.

Tim Winders: 00:50:42

I'm not sure that there are many people that we can, and then once

Tim Winders: 00:50:44

we find who we think that person is, we latch onto them and we can see no

Tim Winders: 00:50:48

wrong in them or things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:50:51

And and the reason I'm bringing all this up, and this is maybe something

Tim Winders: 00:50:53

I want us to discuss here in the last few minutes we have, is that

Tim Winders: 00:50:56

we're recording this in early 2024.

Tim Winders: 00:50:59

I don't know exactly when it'll release probably sometime around the next

Tim Winders: 00:51:02

few weeks or something like that.

Tim Winders: 00:51:04

This is an election year.

Tim Winders: 00:51:06

And election years have a tendency to bring out the worst in some of

Tim Winders: 00:51:12

the things we're talking about.

Tim Winders: 00:51:13

And especially in the church world too, by the way.

Tim Winders: 00:51:15

We're not, in fact, we're part of the problem, not

Tim Winders: 00:51:18

necessarily part of the solution.

Tim Winders: 00:51:20

And so one of the things I'd love to ask Doug, is where are you

Tim Winders: 00:51:24

landing now with how you gauge?

Tim Winders: 00:51:30

I, I don't know what the words judge you, filter, parse, whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:51:37

Leaders and what you see in others and how you determine who you really wanna

Tim Winders: 00:51:42

listen to and who you wanna say, you know what, I don't wanna listen to 'em.

Tim Winders: 00:51:46

You've already said you're a peacemaker, so you're, I'm guessing you're not

Tim Winders: 00:51:50

gonna blast one person over the other.

Tim Winders: 00:51:53

I would let one know that I disagree with them, but you More of a peacemaker.

Tim Winders: 00:51:57

But how does someone navigate this environment that we're in,

Tim Winders: 00:52:05

in a year, like we're in today?

Tim Winders: 00:52:07

And I know, I know you don't know all the answers, but, because I also get the

Tim Winders: 00:52:10

feeling that you've been on a journey where two years ago you did it differently

Tim Winders: 00:52:14

than maybe you did it four years ago, that you did it eight years ago, that you did

Tim Winders: 00:52:19

it probably growing up the way you did.

Tim Winders: 00:52:21

Is that a, is that even a fair question?

Tim Winders: 00:52:23

Sorry,

Doug Bursch: 00:52:25

No, it's not fair.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:25

And how dare you.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:27

Uh, so I was raised in an interesting environment.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:29

My parents' favorite president was President Carter.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:32

So that can tell you we were in evangelical circles, but he

Doug Bursch: 00:52:36

was not liked by evangelicals.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:37

But I knew he was a Christian and I knew he wasn't acting.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:40

he actually is a Christian, whether

Doug Bursch: 00:52:41

you liked his

Tim Winders: 00:52:42

I wanna PI wanna pause you just to get context here.

Tim Winders: 00:52:45

I grew up in the state of Georgia and we did not vote for Jimmy Carter

Doug Bursch: 00:52:50

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:51

And so my son's middle name is Carter.

Doug Bursch: 00:52:54

that's the, but I'm not, you know, I've felt disillusioned that I often feel

Doug Bursch: 00:52:58

like there's no place for me to go.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:00

So I, as far as politically, it's been a struggle.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:02

But here's the issue is that this is a really hard thing to tell anyone.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:06

I have, in the book posting piece, I have a chapter on when justice

Doug Bursch: 00:53:10

demands conflict, one of the struggles, I don't, Christians will do this.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:14

They'll say, let's say they did this with Trump.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:17

they'd be like, I'm a Republican.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:19

I'll never be a Democrat, but I don't like Trump, so I'm just not voting.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:23

And they'll see that as like a more virtuous thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:26

And it's not, it could certainly be a choice, but there's nothing

Doug Bursch: 00:53:28

more virtuous about that.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:30

And it's probably a sign that you have a level of privilege because

Doug Bursch: 00:53:35

if I probably will be least impacted of whoever's our next president.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:39

versus other people will have severe impacts, especially

Doug Bursch: 00:53:42

minorities, for instance.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:45

so for me to say, this is what you should do, just get along and, don't

Doug Bursch: 00:53:48

worry about politics and the, I don't have the perspective of, my, my Hispanic

Doug Bursch: 00:53:54

friends, you know, I don't, I don't know.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:56

or any, and this doesn't mean that would go towards one party or not.

Doug Bursch: 00:53:59

It's just, so that's, I gotta be very careful to come in and say,

Doug Bursch: 00:54:02

I found the solution to this.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:04

I'm pretty disillusioned, disillusioned by but I think we're in a season of anything.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:09

A lot of people have called themselves Christian.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:11

We have an expression of cultural Christianity and at some level I

Doug Bursch: 00:54:15

think that is crumbling and I'd like it to continue to crumble.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:18

I don't want the decimation of the church But I think we're seeing a radicalization

Doug Bursch: 00:54:24

of people who call themselves Christians, that they're becoming more and more

Doug Bursch: 00:54:27

polarized and more and more political in the sense of, here's an issue

Doug Bursch: 00:54:31

between being political and partisan.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:33

And I talk about this in the book posting piece, political

Doug Bursch: 00:54:36

as I have a political opinion.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:38

And if you're voting, you should have a political opinion.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:40

So if will God will work it out.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:43

this is how God worked it out.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:44

He allows us to vote in our democracy, our republic.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:47

being political is nothing wrong.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:48

Your views on gun control and whatever, partisan is not a Christian virtue.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:53

Partisan is, I want my side to win and your side to lose.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:56

I want it to be my country, not your country.

Doug Bursch: 00:54:59

I want, it's not reconciling partisan communication.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:02

The goal is to destroy you.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:05

The goal is you're the idiots and we're the good guys.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:08

And that's what we're seeing.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:09

The extreme partisanship in our culture where there's less and less people

Doug Bursch: 00:55:12

in the middle that say, how do we engage politically to solve problems

Doug Bursch: 00:55:15

across the aisle as Christians?

Doug Bursch: 00:55:18

I think we should run away from any environment that is,

Doug Bursch: 00:55:21

that reeks the partisanship.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:23

Yeah, in the sense of we're making jokes about those snowflakes or those, and you

Doug Bursch: 00:55:28

see this and you can listen to NPR and they all make a joke about the far right.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:32

And you can listen to far right people, they're joking about and they're not

Doug Bursch: 00:55:36

even Christians, that we do, we'd belittle their faith, we'd belittle

Doug Bursch: 00:55:38

that is not Christ-like, uh, I would never want someone to treat me this

Doug Bursch: 00:55:42

way, so I'm not gonna treat them well.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:44

So that's kind of the process to me.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:45

I look for politicians and there's, it's hard to know at a

Doug Bursch: 00:55:48

national level for that existence.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:50

I think one of the things I talk about in my book is trending local.

Doug Bursch: 00:55:53

If you're struggling with these national things, trend local, find what's happening

Doug Bursch: 00:55:57

in your local community and get connected.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:00

And I don't mean just get connected with radicalized people,

Doug Bursch: 00:56:03

but get to know your mayor.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:04

if you're a small enough town.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:06

Good to know him.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:06

I, the mayor in the town that I ministered for most of the years, we had different

Doug Bursch: 00:56:10

political affiliations, but he's my brother in Christ and I love him.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:15

He's my friend.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:15

I got to know him as a real person and small town.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:18

It's often not whether you're left or right, it's just whether

Doug Bursch: 00:56:20

you can get the roads paved, it's just, it's not the same thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:23

In fact, don't elect a small time mayor who's just all partisan.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:26

You want a mayor who can get money to help you with the

Doug Bursch: 00:56:29

things that no one can pay for.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:30

But that's what I would help.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:32

People are so disillusioned.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:33

Maybe you can't even look at the national news.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:36

Find something local, you know, maybe go to the school board.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:38

It'll be hard.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:39

You go to the school board and maybe you'll see a lot of toxic stuff.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:42

And instead of focusing on the toxic stuff, find the one person in that

Doug Bursch: 00:56:46

school board who seems to represent your spirit and encourage them and

Doug Bursch: 00:56:50

say, how can I partner with you and what can we do for the future?

Doug Bursch: 00:56:53

So those are the things to me is find people at some level

Doug Bursch: 00:56:56

have the spirit that you have.

Doug Bursch: 00:56:58

Find a way to partner with them.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:00

And then I also have to believe this is how I've been, this is

Doug Bursch: 00:57:02

how disillusioned I've been.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:04

Even if our entire nation's republic disappears, that God's still good

Doug Bursch: 00:57:08

and in control and I'm gonna be okay.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:10

'cause I cannot move forward believing that the health of my faith and the health

Doug Bursch: 00:57:15

of Christianity is determined by who's the next president or who's the next governor.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:21

I just can't do that.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:22

I have opinions about what will go better or worse.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:25

I am political.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:26

I am very much strong in my convictions, but there's certain context to me.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:30

This is a context where I'm trying to facilitate an environment

Doug Bursch: 00:57:33

where Republicans and Democrats and Green Party and Liberal and

Doug Bursch: 00:57:36

Libertarians are all welcomed.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:38

So I'm gonna try to find a way.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:40

To not just win a point that doesn't really help anyone.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:43

If I communicate something that maybe drew people together, that's one thing.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:46

But if I just, preach to the choir and they're all like, yeah, we agree with you,

Doug Bursch: 00:57:49

Doug, I don't see any purpose in that.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:51

If it doesn't change anyone's heart, why do that?

Doug Bursch: 00:57:53

So instead, let's facilitate spaces where people of different

Doug Bursch: 00:57:56

political opinions can come together.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:58

I know we didn't talk much about that.

Doug Bursch: 00:57:59

I'm glad the book, but Posting Peace talks about, that's the

Doug Bursch: 00:58:03

problem with our internet age.

Doug Bursch: 00:58:05

It's segmenting us into these, these environments that are radicalizing us.

Doug Bursch: 00:58:10

And we have to work against that to find ways to be in community

Doug Bursch: 00:58:14

of, not like-minded people.

Doug Bursch: 00:58:17

Ultimately maybe like spirited people with different opinions about the world.

Tim Winders: 00:58:23

Or I, like I asked you earlier, people that aren't,

Tim Winders: 00:58:29

I know the word dogmatic might be overused, but aren't so dogmatic.

Tim Winders: 00:58:33

I'm concerned that we've got a entire culture, civilization right

Tim Winders: 00:58:36

now that they don't know history.

Tim Winders: 00:58:39

Because I'm sitting here looking at, by the way, I wasn't able to get through

Tim Winders: 00:58:44

the entire book posting piece, but.

Tim Winders: 00:58:47

You wrote possibly one of my favorite chapters that I've read in some time.

Tim Winders: 00:58:54

I think it was chapter six.

Tim Winders: 00:58:55

It was one that I was able to read because you did two things.

Tim Winders: 00:58:58

You combined two things.

Tim Winders: 00:58:59

I think that was the right chapter.

Tim Winders: 00:59:01

You told some great backstory on you, I think when you were sick, when you

Tim Winders: 00:59:05

were in middle school and all that.

Tim Winders: 00:59:08

And then you led into the Jefferson Adams relationship, I think did.

Tim Winders: 00:59:15

But was both that the same chapter?

Tim Winders: 00:59:16

Am I re, did I remember that correctly

Doug Bursch: 00:59:18

I don't remember which chapters then, but Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 00:59:20

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 00:59:21

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:59:21

So I learned about Doug.

Tim Winders: 00:59:24

and he reflected and showed what to me.

Tim Winders: 00:59:27

I've read, I've read some things historically that was one of the

Tim Winders: 00:59:30

ugliest elections we've ever seen, which we can't even grasp that.

Tim Winders: 00:59:34

People think 2020 was bad.

Tim Winders: 00:59:36

They go, eh, I don't think you're around an 1800.

Tim Winders: 00:59:38

And so I do think we just don't have concept perspective.

Tim Winders: 00:59:44

We're very narrow.

Tim Winders: 00:59:45

We're we think very selfishly of just ourselves and we don't

Tim Winders: 00:59:51

try to look at other things.

Tim Winders: 00:59:52

And I love the message of what you had in posting peace and I believe you're

Tim Winders: 00:59:57

doing this over on X, Twitter is just, and maybe I'm trying to do it here.

Tim Winders: 01:00:03

Maybe that's what I'm hopeful that we're having some conversations that

Tim Winders: 01:00:07

people just don't have in other places.

Tim Winders: 01:00:12

And maybe that'll help because I'm not excited about as we head into

Tim Winders: 01:00:17

the rest of this year, truthfully.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:21

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:21

No, I'm glad you, I think people are having these conversations, but they're

Doug Bursch: 01:00:25

not the dominant The conversation at the Thanksgiving table, the

Doug Bursch: 01:00:30

extremists speak, and the rest are trying to keep the family together.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:34

And I think we gotta remember that.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:35

That's why we do need to have conversations like this.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:37

You can be like, what was this about?

Doug Bursch: 01:00:38

what were we really talking about?

Doug Bursch: 01:00:39

Is this about selling a book or my platform?

Doug Bursch: 01:00:41

Or your platform?

Doug Bursch: 01:00:43

I hope not.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:44

obviously if someone bought a book, I get $3 or something, but here's the thing.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:49

By doing this, there's other people who feel less alone.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:52

We're less trying to change people's minds as there's other people like us.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:55

We're not alone in this.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:57

And they're like, oh, good.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:58

I'm not alone.

Doug Bursch: 01:00:59

And that's the danger.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:00

The danger is we begin to think that these extremists are extreme expressions.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:04

Is the expression.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:06

And that's to me, even people who came out of extreme churches and then they think

Doug Bursch: 01:01:09

that's the church, and they leave the church, they're like, that's the church.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:11

I don't like the church anymore.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:12

okay, that was your experience with church, but now you're buying

Doug Bursch: 01:01:16

into the same deceptive logic.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:17

When you went to that church, your church was like, we're the church and we do it

Doug Bursch: 01:01:21

right, and everybody else does it wrong.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:22

And now you've left it and you're still letting them set the agenda for

Doug Bursch: 01:01:25

your life saying they're the church.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:27

So I don't go to church.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:29

There's other expressions.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:30

There's, by the way, if you went to a white church, just go

Doug Bursch: 01:01:32

to a non-white church, you'll find a different expression.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:35

Go to a poorer church.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:36

If you went to a wealthy church, go to a smaller church.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:38

If you went to a bigger church, go to a, there's, go to a high church,

Doug Bursch: 01:01:42

Catholic, Lutheran, whatever.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:44

or if you were in that environment.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:45

go to where it's just uncomfortable people falling on the floor.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:49

It's just, there's a larger expression.

Doug Bursch: 01:01:51

So what you're doing here, and I know you work in this intersection, right?

Doug Bursch: 01:01:54

Even with these podcasts and the business stuff, the church stuff, am I too churchy?

Doug Bursch: 01:01:58

Am I too business too?

Doug Bursch: 01:01:59

That's where we're all living in this incredible, in-between place,

Doug Bursch: 01:02:03

and we need to encourage each other.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:05

I'm so glad what you're doing, it is needed.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:07

We need people in your space that you don't know how to define.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:11

I know you define yourself as a coach, but you're more than that.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:14

And it probably gets frustrating.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:15

what am I even doing and how do I define it to other things?

Doug Bursch: 01:02:17

You don't have to.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:18

God defends your work.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:20

God defends your worth.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:21

You just do what he put on your heart and let him connect those things.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:24

So I'm doing that.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:26

You're doing that.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:26

People listening are doing that, and that's where, that's how

Doug Bursch: 01:02:29

we're gonna solve the problem.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:30

Be bold.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:31

Do what God's put on your heart.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:33

It doesn't matter if it fits in anywhere else, and by all means, stop

Doug Bursch: 01:02:36

being a jerk while you're doing it.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:38

Be kind.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:40

Be loving, be reconciling Christ-like maybe even that's my heart.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:45

And we can unite on Twitter, our formerly Twitter now x or threads

Doug Bursch: 01:02:49

or whatever we're going to next.

Doug Bursch: 01:02:50

We can unite based on these things.

Tim Winders: 01:02:53

That's good, Doug.

Tim Winders: 01:02:54

That's a good, that's a good capper here.

Tim Winders: 01:02:55

Where can people find you get, get your book posting piece?

Tim Winders: 01:03:00

Like I said, I, I've enjoyed probably two thirds through it.

Tim Winders: 01:03:03

I wanna circle back 'cause anytime someone says they're a reluctant

Tim Winders: 01:03:06

pastor in the title of your other book, I'd love to kinda read that and all.

Tim Winders: 01:03:10

But where can people find you?

Tim Winders: 01:03:11

And then I've got one more question before we wrap.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:14

Sure.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:14

a couple things.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:15

One, if you just pray, if you're anointed, you'll find me, you'll

Doug Bursch: 01:03:18

just follow the Glory Cloud.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:19

Now, this is what you can do, one, fairly

Doug Bursch: 01:03:22

spiritual.org is my website.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:23

Are you?

Tim Winders: 01:03:25

we need some details.

Tim Winders: 01:03:26

We

Doug Bursch: 01:03:26

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:27

For the non, yeah, for those of you who aren't spiritual enough.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:30

Yeah.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:30

Fairly spiritual.org or.com.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:33

Yeah, you can go to Doug Burch.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:35

if you search my name, you'll find me.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:37

And I do interact on those platforms.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:39

I also have a bunch of books that I haven't sold because I'm

Doug Bursch: 01:03:41

not a great, successful author.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:44

So if you have a church group or study group, and you contact me, I'm

Doug Bursch: 01:03:48

gonna find a way to send you a box of books if you can pay for the shipping.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:51

I'm telling you right now, I just wanna get those out there.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:53

I've given up on being the world famous author.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:55

instead I'd like to just get the message out there.

Doug Bursch: 01:03:58

So contact me if you're like, I'm interested in this and

Doug Bursch: 01:04:00

I'll be glad to serve you.

Tim Winders: 01:04:02

Very good.

Tim Winders: 01:04:03

hey Doug, we are seek, go create those three words.

Tim Winders: 01:04:06

I'll let you choose one is my final question.

Tim Winders: 01:04:08

Seek, go or create.

Tim Winders: 01:04:09

Which one do you like right now and

Doug Bursch: 01:04:11

Hmm.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:15

I think create is the best way to truly bring something

Doug Bursch: 01:04:19

life-giving into this world.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:21

we become a, an assessment culture where fewer people are creating

Doug Bursch: 01:04:25

and we're just assessing the creating or we're aggregating the

Doug Bursch: 01:04:29

creating or retweeting the creating.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:31

So to create anything, a poem, especially art, a song, a book,

Doug Bursch: 01:04:37

doesn't have to be Christian.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:39

Just there's more creating needed.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:41

Right now I'm trying to write a comedic novel fiction.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:44

I don't know if it'll ever be published, but I just want to do that and I think

Doug Bursch: 01:04:48

God's given me permission to do that.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:49

This is not, there'll be spiritual elements in it, but the reality

Doug Bursch: 01:04:53

is I love the creative process.

Doug Bursch: 01:04:56

I, I think we can find so many things over just something new and real.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:00

And so I would encourage your audience, especially if someone's like, well,

Doug Bursch: 01:05:04

I have a book that I've thought I might do, or I might take up this.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:07

Just do it.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:08

Just start creating, it should have value in the doing, not whether it's a success.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:13

Just everything I do, I try to have value in the doing.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:16

I'm glad I wrote books, regardless of how many you are sold when you create

Doug Bursch: 01:05:20

something, I tend to, I never regret that.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:22

I do regret the things.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:23

I didn't create the things that I just, I let other people take

Doug Bursch: 01:05:27

my time and my energy instead of doing what was on my heart.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:30

So I would encourage people.

Doug Bursch: 01:05:31

You have permission to create,

Tim Winders: 01:05:34

I like that, Doug, thank you.

Tim Winders: 01:05:36

I know I am at my happiest when I'm in some kind of creating mode, and

Tim Winders: 01:05:41

so I definitely agree with that.

Tim Winders: 01:05:43

Again, Doug, thanks for joining us.

Tim Winders: 01:05:45

Here we are Seek Go Create release new episodes every Monday.

Tim Winders: 01:05:48

Your support means the world to us.

Tim Winders: 01:05:51

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Tim Winders: 01:05:54

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Tim Winders: 01:05:58

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Tim Winders: 01:06:03

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Tim Winders: 01:06:05

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Tim Winders: 01:06:08

be featured on a future episode visit seek, go create.com/support.

Tim Winders: 01:06:13

Thanks for.

Tim Winders: 01:06:14

Joining us here.

Tim Winders: 01:06:15

Until next time, continue being all that you were created to be.