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Fighting What Divides Us: Bringing Peace & Reconciliation With Doug Bursch

Are you ready to laugh and learn with the Seek Go Create podcast? Join host Tim Winders as he dives into a captivating interview with the charismatic Doug Bursch. Dive into the world of humor, spirituality, and the need for change in church communities. From the power of humor to the challenges of traditional church structures, this episode is a thought-provoking journey you won't want to miss!

"We should focus on creating spaces for meaningful conversations, even with those holding diverse political opinions."- Doug Bursch

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

Doug Bursch is a seasoned writer, minister, and speaker with 24 years of pastoral experience. He is committed to fostering authentic community and grace in both digital and spiritual realms. His work explores themes of hope, reconciliation, and unity, reflecting his deep interest in facilitating meaningful conversations and challenging narrow perspectives within the church and society. Bursch's insights draw from a rich background, including his upbringing in a Christian community and his personal journey of growth and faith.

Reasons to Listen:

1. Gain valuable insight from Doug Bursch's unique perspective on humor and its role in addressing challenging topics, drawing from his experience in using humor to connect with people and open doors for difficult conversations.

2. Explore the need for reform in today's church structures and practices as both Doug Bursch and Tim Winders candidly discuss their discontent with traditional mindsets and emphasize the importance of creating inclusive, less structured faith communities.

3. Discover thought-provoking discussions on the impact of politics on Christian engagement, the importance of diverse perspectives in religious settings, and the need for genuine repentance and restoration for leaders who have caused harm.

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

Doug Bursch's book Posting Peace: Why Social Media Divides Us and What We Can Do About It - A book by Doug Bursch that explores the importance of facilitating spaces for meaningful conversations and finding common ground amidst diverse perspectives.

Action Steps:

1. Engage in Meaningful Conversations: Encourage creating spaces for people with different political opinions to come together and have meaningful conversations. Actively seek out diverse perspectives and engage in respectful dialogue to foster understanding and unity.

2. Seek Personal Growth and Authenticity: Embrace personal growth and authenticity by acknowledging one's flaws and room for growth. Be open to seeking help, prayer, and support, while striving for humility and servant leadership in personal and professional interactions.

Resources for Leaders from Tim Winders & SGC:

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  • 🎙 Coaching with Tim: Elevate your leadership and align your work with your faith. Learn More
  • 📚 "Coach: A Story of Success Redefined": A transformative read that will challenge your views on success. Grab Your Copy
  • 📝 Faith Driven Leader Quiz: Discover how well you're aligning faith and work with our quick quiz. Take the Quiz

Key Lessons:

1. Humor as a Tool for Connection: Doug Bursch highlights the power of humor in opening doors for difficult conversations and helping people be more receptive to serious messages.

2. Pursuing Authenticity in Community: Both Doug and Tim express the importance of dismantling toxic power dynamics within the church and fostering authentic, inclusive community spaces.

3. Nurturing a Culture of Creativity: Doug emphasizes the significance of creating and finding value in the act of creation, encouraging listeners to pursue their creative endeavors.

4. Engaging in Meaningful, Diverse Conversations: The importance of facilitating spaces for people with differing political opinions to come together and have meaningful conversations is emphasized.

5. Humility and Restoration in Leadership: The episode delves into the need for genuine repentance and restoration for leaders who have caused harm, stressing the importance of humility and servant leadership in church institutions.

Episode Highlights:

00:00 Seeking digital and spiritual harmony with Doug Bursch.

07:34 Humor opens doors, helps convey serious messages.

14:15 Positive anticipation for potentially helpful conversation on church.

19:27 Megachurch dynamics and resisting corrupt structures.

25:19 Justifying leader's faults in church and beyond.

26:17 Families and churches hide abuse and problems.

34:59 Ministry brings success, leading to misplaced priorities.

39:27 Mark Driscoll lost authority, refused to reconcile.

45:32 Embracing grace, rejecting arrogance in belief system.

49:49 Seeking saviors leads to unrealistic expectations.

58:23 Concerned about lack of historical knowledge in society.

01:01:17 Explore different expressions of faith and life.

01:04:56 Encourage audience to create, value in doing.

Thank you for listening to Seek Go Create!

Our podcast is dedicated to empowering Christian leaders, entrepreneurs, and individuals looking to redefine success in their personal and professional lives. Through in-depth interviews, personal anecdotes, and expert advice, we offer valuable insights and actionable strategies for achieving your goals and living a life of purpose and fulfillment.

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Mentioned in this episode:

Unleash Your True Leadership Potential with Tim Winders

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Transcript
Doug Bursch:

I've never met a person who didn't have room for growth.

Doug Bursch:

And the most scary people are the people who refuse to get help.

Doug Bursch:

The people who refuse to get prayer, the people who never apologize.

Doug Bursch:

So I don't wanna be associated with that.

Doug Bursch:

I don't want to ever prop up a person, a leader, anyone who is just, look

Doug Bursch:

at how I do it and do it my way.

Tim Winders:

In a world that often feels fragmented and disconnected, how can

Tim Winders:

we navigate our digital and spiritual lives with authenticity and grace?

Tim Winders:

Welcome to Seat Go Create, where today's guest, Doug Burch, brings his unique

Tim Winders:

perspective as a writer, minister, and speaker committed to living by the

Tim Winders:

spirit and exploring the intersection of faith, community, and social media.

Tim Winders:

Doug author, a posting piece, why social media divides us

Tim Winders:

and what we can do about it.

Tim Winders:

I just finished reading half of that, really enjoyed it, and his other book,

Tim Winders:

the Community of God, A Theology of the Church from a Reluctant Pastor.

Tim Winders:

I love the thought of that.

Tim Winders:

I need to circle back and read that he has spent 24 years pastoring and

Tim Winders:

has been the voice behind a radio show and the Fairly Spiritual Show podcast.

Tim Winders:

His journey seems to be one of seeking harmony between his

Tim Winders:

spiritual calling and his daily life.

Tim Winders:

Doug, welcome to Seek Go Create.

Doug Bursch:

Well, hey, thanks for having me on.

Doug Bursch:

I've been looking forward to this

Tim Winders:

Yeah, I think this is gonna be interesting.

Tim Winders:

We were right before we hit record, we were kinda like

Tim Winders:

going, so what are we doing here?

Tim Winders:

What are we talking about?

Tim Winders:

And so think this is gonna be a nice, free flowing conversation, but let's do

Tim Winders:

something that, is not really pretending.

Tim Winders:

Doug.

Tim Winders:

Let's just say we just meet, and I'm doing this idle chitchat question where

Tim Winders:

I say, Doug, by the way, what do you do?

Tim Winders:

How do you respond when someone asks you at this season, stage

Tim Winders:

of your life, what you do?

Doug Bursch:

I, if we just met, I'd probably try to change

Doug Bursch:

the topic or the subject.

Doug Bursch:

pastoring for 24 years.

Doug Bursch:

There's some people that the moment you say you're a pastor, they, depending upon

Doug Bursch:

their experience of the church, they just shut up and that's the last you get of it.

Doug Bursch:

In fact, I was, on a fishing boat.

Doug Bursch:

It was one of those where they take you out to fish for some, I don't know,

Doug Bursch:

like you drop a line and you catch fish and it's doesn't seem fair to the fish.

Doug Bursch:

But there was a guy next to me swearing the whole time,

Doug Bursch:

just nonstop like creative.

Doug Bursch:

Swear, just.

Doug Bursch:

Brilliant swear.

Doug Bursch:

And like a hour into our time, he goes, so what do you do And I'm like, and I didn't

Doug Bursch:

wanna say it, I was just, I'm a pastor.

Doug Bursch:

And then you could just see his eyes like roll back.

Doug Bursch:

Like he was trying to think of all the conversations he had.

Doug Bursch:

He just stops.

Doug Bursch:

And he goes, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, Well, I was a pastor for 24 years.

Doug Bursch:

I'm not that right now.

Doug Bursch:

I'm in between that.

Doug Bursch:

I'm trying to figure out what to do.

Doug Bursch:

I write books.

Doug Bursch:

I like to talk about hope.

Doug Bursch:

Right now I'm writing, fiction, a creative novel.

Doug Bursch:

I do a bunch of things and I'm not content with any of them.

Doug Bursch:

So, uh, for me, that's kind of what I do.

Doug Bursch:

Ministry reconciliation's a big issue for me that whatever I talk about

Doug Bursch:

is how do we bring people together?

Doug Bursch:

how do we, actually find a way, not in a simplistic way, but

Doug Bursch:

how do we heal the divides?

Doug Bursch:

How do we enter into, as the scripture talks about the ministry of

Doug Bursch:

reconciliation, where the dividing walls of hostility are torn down and we can find

Doug Bursch:

true community around important things.

Tim Winders:

Have, has that always been your, mantra, that

Tim Winders:

reconciliation or is that something you've evolved into over time?

Tim Winders:

I.

Doug Bursch:

it's interesting, I think sometimes writers overcompensate in that

Doug Bursch:

they write for an area they might struggle with, so they think, well, if I write

Doug Bursch:

a book, maybe, it'll solve the problem.

Doug Bursch:

I think pastors do that.

Doug Bursch:

Counselors helpers do that.

Doug Bursch:

I'm a middle child.

Doug Bursch:

There was five kids in our family.

Doug Bursch:

I'm the middle child, and even as a middle child, I wanted everyone to get along.

Doug Bursch:

And so that concept, and it's not always been a positive thing where not liking

Doug Bursch:

conflict, wanting everybody to get along, wanting to try to find unity.

Doug Bursch:

I think that was in my DNA there's, or whether it was the

Doug Bursch:

nurture or the nature, right.

Doug Bursch:

Uh, so I've always pursued that and it might've come even

Doug Bursch:

outta my own discomfort, not enjoying being in divided rooms.

Doug Bursch:

It might not even have been a really, oh, the Lord has told me to do this.

Doug Bursch:

It's more how do I get these jerks to stop being jerky to each other?

Doug Bursch:

So now my family wasn't like that.

Doug Bursch:

It was a good family, but you got five kids and seven people.

Doug Bursch:

There's a certain level of chaos.

Doug Bursch:

So I, from earliest on, and then looking back I realized, wow,

Doug Bursch:

whatever I write about, I tend to keep going to these themes.

Doug Bursch:

so I'm kind of discovering who I am as I write, as I preach and teach.

Tim Winders:

I is that as you moved into ministry?

Tim Winders:

Or let's do a little bit of background real quick here.

Tim Winders:

'cause you and I haven't really spent a lot of time around each other.

Tim Winders:

I wanna say this too.

Tim Winders:

I wanna go ahead and get this out so that people understand this.

Tim Winders:

I was drawn to you just from interacting or not really interacting, just

Tim Winders:

reading some of the things you did on, I guess we call it X now, the

Tim Winders:

platform formerly known as Twitter.

Tim Winders:

I feel like we need to say that and uh, you know, just the short burst, sort

Tim Winders:

of pithy sometimes a little bit, humor.

Tim Winders:

It's okay to say that humor.

Tim Winders:

Is it okay

Doug Bursch:

yes.

Doug Bursch:

Humor.

Doug Bursch:

That's right.

Tim Winders:

sarcasm?

Tim Winders:

Is sarcasm okay?

Tim Winders:

Do you have a little bit ? Of that I

Doug Bursch:

I, I've got a lot of sarcasm,

Tim Winders:

Okay.

Tim Winders:

Some people don't like to be called that, and I'm like going, I actually

Tim Winders:

embrace it probably more than I should because I'm not sure that it

Tim Winders:

always lines up with reconciliation, just as a, something there.

Tim Winders:

Sometimes sarcasm can cause issues there, at least it does for me.

Tim Winders:

Maybe not you, maybe you've mastered that, but I was drawn to that just

Tim Winders:

because that seems to be a place that you, you get a lot of information out.

Tim Winders:

Now.

Tim Winders:

And so I'm just setting that up to say that's what drew me to you.

Tim Winders:

And I could also tell that I think we had some, some differing viewpoints, but

Tim Winders:

we were moving in a similar direction, which I like the thought of that.

Tim Winders:

Okay.

Tim Winders:

So that, I think that's a, maybe a little bit of a foundation for our conversation,

Tim Winders:

but tell me a little bit about kind of, I don't wanna know the, not necessarily

Tim Winders:

the growing up years, but how does someone go into ministry or how did, what's

Tim Winders:

your story for going into ministry?

Doug Bursch:

Well, uh, I was born in a log cabin, which,

Doug Bursch:

no, I won't go back that far.

Doug Bursch:

by the way, with sarcasm, this will help.

Doug Bursch:

Some people are like, sarcasm just isn't right 'cause it's lying or something.

Doug Bursch:

Sarcasm like any other, form of communication, it

Doug Bursch:

depends on the motivation.

Doug Bursch:

Some people use sarcasm as a way to tear people down in a humorous way, and I

Doug Bursch:

think that's the kind of sarcasm we would say we don't like, where it's a passive

Doug Bursch:

aggressive way to tell someone, say something mean, but oh, it's just a joke.

Doug Bursch:

I'm just being sarcastic.

Doug Bursch:

Most of my sarcasm is more, self-effacing and I'm talking

Doug Bursch:

about what I've done wrong.

Doug Bursch:

and if I'm gonna be sarcastic, it's probably going to be with people in

Doug Bursch:

power who could probably take it.

Doug Bursch:

Somebody who's kind of a know-it-all who's used to telling everybody things.

Doug Bursch:

And I might say, boy, you certainly have an opinion there.

Doug Bursch:

just something like that.

Doug Bursch:

uh, as far.

Tim Winders:

hold on one second.

Tim Winders:

Lemme pause you.

Tim Winders:

But do you use it, because you triggered something in me, do you

Tim Winders:

also use it as a relatability thing?

Tim Winders:

You mentioned the self-effacing, which I realize that I do that at times too.

Tim Winders:

It's kinda it, a lot of it's directed at me.

Tim Winders:

And I do similar, like what you just mentioned, but do you perceive it as

Tim Winders:

being something that helps you, you think, relate to other people better?

Doug Bursch:

Yeah, it's a part of who I am, it's not like I'm going to

Doug Bursch:

be humorous now, it's just how I am.

Doug Bursch:

But humor has a way of opening doors.

Doug Bursch:

I've found, I've often defined some of the stuff I do as evangelistic, and not

Doug Bursch:

that I, have everybody raise their hand to give their life to Christ, but I come in

Doug Bursch:

and maybe say difficult things, but I say it in a way that people are open

Doug Bursch:

to it, and so there is a part of that.

Doug Bursch:

Sometimes people assume humor means you're not serious about what you're talking

Doug Bursch:

about, but what I've found is if you take enough effort to get someone to laugh

Doug Bursch:

at themselves, then when you come in and you say something like, you know, we

Doug Bursch:

need to really look at how we're living.

Doug Bursch:

They're more willing to receive that.

Doug Bursch:

Because you've done that effort.

Doug Bursch:

So that's a big thing for me, because we all do that.

Doug Bursch:

We do it with the people we love, or at least people with sense of humor

Doug Bursch:

Do this where you tease a spouse who might be getting a little annoyed and

Doug Bursch:

it's a way to tell them, Hey, your attitude's kind of not the best right now.

Doug Bursch:

So when we love people, sometimes we joke with them to

Doug Bursch:

get them to laugh a little bit.

Doug Bursch:

We do that with our kids, right?

Doug Bursch:

You seem to be a little grumpy today.

Doug Bursch:

and then when they acknowledge that, then it's a way to also

Doug Bursch:

say, maybe we should turn our attitude in a different direction.

Doug Bursch:

So humor, also humor for insecurities.

Doug Bursch:

I know for me, struggling to fit in as a kid, humor gets you at the table, right?

Doug Bursch:

So I could joke about things.

Doug Bursch:

I was a Christian kid always.

Doug Bursch:

I, since I was two, I gave my life to Christ.

Doug Bursch:

I said yes to Jesus, and I never stopped saying yes.

Doug Bursch:

So that's my testimony.

Doug Bursch:

And there's no real backsliding testimonies either.

Doug Bursch:

I've always loved Jesus.

Doug Bursch:

Now, like any 2-year-old who grew up in an evangelical culture, I

Doug Bursch:

gave my life to Christ over and over again, just in case it didn't stick.

Doug Bursch:

the person would come into town and, okay, maybe, I'll raise my hand again for Jesus.

Doug Bursch:

But, but being a Christian kid and going through, the public schools,

Doug Bursch:

And I wasn't like the nerd kid.

Doug Bursch:

I was actively involved in things in sports, but I

Doug Bursch:

always felt like an outsider.

Doug Bursch:

And so humor is a great way, right?

Doug Bursch:

You can just I'm a Pentecostal in the sense of believe the Holy Spirit as the

Doug Bursch:

Holy Spirit worked in, in the Bible.

Doug Bursch:

Holy Spirit works today.

Doug Bursch:

So people who are worried about Pentecostals, what's

Doug Bursch:

the first joke I'll do?

Doug Bursch:

I'll say something like, don't worry, I didn't bring my snakes.

Doug Bursch:

I'm not gonna be handling snakes or something like that.

Doug Bursch:

And then they pull back a little bit, but I'm still the Pentecostal, so I think I

Doug Bursch:

use it that way as well to cut 'em off at the past what they're already thinking

Doug Bursch:

about me to say it before they say it.

Doug Bursch:

So then we know what the concerns are and maybe how to move forward.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

the

Doug Bursch:

I didn't talk at all about how I became a pastor, did I?

Doug Bursch:

But you, I think

Doug Bursch:

you set me off in

Tim Winders:

yeah, we're, I did, we're about to go back that direction, but I,

Tim Winders:

it, I didn't grow up around a church.

Tim Winders:

I.

Tim Winders:

I grew up in the deep south though, which would tell you a good bit about me.

Tim Winders:

And we popped in and out of the Baptist church every once in a while and,

Tim Winders:

and then later, Pentecostal is where I came back or came to or whatever.

Tim Winders:

I don't know, but I like the same thing you said.

Tim Winders:

I like the joking about some of the raising of the hands and the . I also

Tim Winders:

went to churches when we started going more that were multicultural, which

Tim Winders:

is fascinating as someone who's white, especially in the deep South, and

Tim Winders:

you're allowed or get to go to churches where there's color and people really

Tim Winders:

do worship differently, that, we can say, oh yeah, we're all the same.

Tim Winders:

No, we're not.

Tim Winders:

We're not, we're different.

Tim Winders:

when Effie takes off running around the church, you gotta get outta the

Tim Winders:

way or you're gonna get mowed down.

Tim Winders:

And so we laugh and joke about that, but, but, but alright, so now let's get to

Doug Bursch:

We could, by the way, we could talk forever on humor

Doug Bursch:

because to me, any joke like this is the problem with social media, it's

Doug Bursch:

general and usually we're content driven versus relationship driven.

Doug Bursch:

So if you have a relationship with someone, and let's say you're in that

Doug Bursch:

multicultural church, you can make jokes about cultural differences,

Doug Bursch:

racial differences, if you're friends, if not, and again, why

Doug Bursch:

is this person telling this joke?

Doug Bursch:

Well, they, they're a racist, you know, or we don't know.

Doug Bursch:

And that's what the hard part is.

Doug Bursch:

We sometimes don't even take the time to know that through social media

Doug Bursch:

we're Uniting I immediately through just ideology or the content there.

Doug Bursch:

But when you have a relationship with someone, you put it in that context.

Doug Bursch:

and the, that's why, to me, humor can be really dangerous, right?

Doug Bursch:

Because you're reading the room.

Doug Bursch:

Like I preach all kinds of different churches and if the pastors a very

Doug Bursch:

sincere person and doesn't have really a strong sense of humor, the

Doug Bursch:

congregation is just like that pastor.

Doug Bursch:

So I can tell a joke in that room and they just stare at me or I see it

Doug Bursch:

like, I will do, okay, I'd do this.

Doug Bursch:

I'd say, before I start preaching, I wanna tell you 10

Doug Bursch:

things I hate about your pastor.

Doug Bursch:

I.

Doug Bursch:

Now what I'm going to do is make fun of myself that this is, nothing's

Doug Bursch:

gonna be negative, but people without a sense of humor immediately.

Doug Bursch:

what?

Doug Bursch:

How can you and what I'll say, is your pastor's interesting?

Doug Bursch:

He makes me look boring.

Doug Bursch:

something like that makes, he's so kind and I'm not as kind.

Doug Bursch:

But man, can you tell if you should stop using humor and those first

Doug Bursch:

jokes, if you've got a guy who laughs at everything, you're like,

Doug Bursch:

the congregation's gonna be a riot.

Doug Bursch:

I can just joke and they'll have a blast.

Doug Bursch:

anyway, humor

Doug Bursch:

works that way.

Doug Bursch:

Ministry for me is probably the opposite than you.

Doug Bursch:

Like I grew up in a.

Doug Bursch:

Church, I mean in Christian community.

Doug Bursch:

And the home was more sacred than the church.

Doug Bursch:

So to me, the most spiritual man I ever met is my father.

Doug Bursch:

And my father's a public school teacher and he's really been my pastor.

Doug Bursch:

So when I went to church, church was more like confirming or not

Doug Bursch:

confirming what was going on at home.

Doug Bursch:

And in fact, if I had gone to a church and the experience was

Doug Bursch:

just terrible and they called that Christianity, I wouldn't believe them

Doug Bursch:

because I know what Christianity is.

Doug Bursch:

I found it in my home.

Doug Bursch:

And so that's really impacted how I minister to people.

Doug Bursch:

'cause I actually minister to a lot of people who've been hurt by the church.

Doug Bursch:

And that's helped me learn something because for many of

Doug Bursch:

those people, that is all of it.

Doug Bursch:

That's the expression they found.

Doug Bursch:

Christ, they grew in Christ.

Doug Bursch:

They were deeply wounded by people.

Doug Bursch:

and so it's so hard to detangle those things.

Doug Bursch:

For me, it is easier to detangle my faith from the church.

Doug Bursch:

And so I've also worked a lot on trying to reform the church.

Doug Bursch:

I feel very unsuccessfully doing that, but that's been my heart,

Doug Bursch:

how we talk, how we communicate.

Doug Bursch:

And then as I've grown older and the Internet's helped me with this,

Doug Bursch:

seeing more problems and hurts and seeing the extreme abuse that I was

Doug Bursch:

not aware of, it's given me a much greater sensitivity to why some people

Doug Bursch:

will never step in a church again.

Doug Bursch:

and shouldn't because of the wounds that they face.

Doug Bursch:

they need community at some level.

Doug Bursch:

But I take seriously that if you've been that wounded by people who should love

Doug Bursch:

you, that there's a reason you, when you, someone says, do you go to church?

Doug Bursch:

you snarl at them and say, I would never step through those doors again.

Tim Winders:

I, I think there's, alright.

Tim Winders:

I like where this is going because I think this is going to be

Tim Winders:

helpful for me and I think this is helpful for the conversation.

Tim Winders:

One of the things that I have found, Doug, is that I.

Tim Winders:

Have had this very similar, I don't even know if mission is the right word, but at

Tim Winders:

times what we call the church, and I want to use that term, I wanna use it that way.

Tim Winders:

Instead of, a lot of people when you, when all of a sudden you mention the

Tim Winders:

word church, just like when you start making jokes about their pastor, they

Tim Winders:

get wide-eyed and they go, oh my gosh.

Tim Winders:

blasphemy, things like that.

Tim Winders:

And I wanna say this, when I'm making these comments, it's about buildings

Tim Winders:

and these places that we have written the word church on the outside of

Tim Winders:

it, they, they may be the church.

Tim Winders:

I don't know if they are or not, but I've been on kind of a mission

Tim Winders:

because really pisses me off what I see going on right now.

Tim Winders:

and it really ticks me off because I've seen time and time again.

Tim Winders:

You know, someone would say, oh, Tim, it sounds like you've been through

Tim Winders:

church, church May maybe I have.

Tim Winders:

I don't really, I'm not really wired to, I don't wanna say I'm not wired

Tim Winders:

to feel that if I've been through it, that doesn't sound right either, but

Tim Winders:

it, I was saved in a business setting.

Tim Winders:

I'll go ahead and get this out there so you understand it.

Tim Winders:

The people that have listened in know I went in and out of a church,

Tim Winders:

but that wasn't gonna take for me because I wasn't attracted to it.

Tim Winders:

They didn't speak my language.

Tim Winders:

I didn't like the mamby pamby pastor speaking from the front or anything.

Tim Winders:

I'm sure that wasn't you or anything, but, I didn't like any of that

Doug Bursch:

I,

Doug Bursch:

am pretty namby pamby, but.

Tim Winders:

yeah.

Tim Winders:

, and so I, I was saved in a business setting at one of these MLM functions

Tim Winders:

that many people call a cult.

Tim Winders:

And so that's where I was, where I met Jesus, and that, that was my paradigm.

Tim Winders:

I wanna ask big picture question, and then maybe we'll drill down even more.

Tim Winders:

Do we have the structure right?

Tim Winders:

is there something wrong with the way we're structuring what we call the church

Tim Winders:

in first world Americanized culture.

Doug Bursch:

I would say yes, but that'll always be the case.

Doug Bursch:

And, and

Doug Bursch:

I, my first book, the Community of God, I talk about that we

Doug Bursch:

have this concept of utopia.

Doug Bursch:

and utopia literally means not a place, if you look at the word, it doesn't exist.

Doug Bursch:

Utopia is not no such place.

Doug Bursch:

I think that's what it means.

Doug Bursch:

And we have these ideas, of what we want the church to be.

Doug Bursch:

And I, again, I'm not trying to minimize churches that should be

Doug Bursch:

shut down, closed and bulldozed over because of the harm they've done.

Doug Bursch:

So I'm not just saying, Hey, you just gotta deal with

Doug Bursch:

hurts and people are messy.

Doug Bursch:

And I think I get what you're talking about.

Doug Bursch:

There's some incredibly, not just in some churches, but in, I think

Doug Bursch:

in even the whole denominational settings that are really toxic.

Doug Bursch:

Some basic foundations, power dynamics that are just terrible.

Doug Bursch:

I talk a lot about this in the community of God, which is interesting.

Doug Bursch:

This is before a lot of the stuff has more come out and united and all the

Doug Bursch:

documentaries we see, that are out there.

Doug Bursch:

But, I, I think at some level I believe this to be true, we are

Doug Bursch:

formed in community Christians.

Doug Bursch:

the Bible doesn't Start with the individual first and

Doug Bursch:

then go to the community.

Doug Bursch:

It's always both.

Doug Bursch:

In fact, if there was only one person on earth, you ever hear the evangelist

Doug Bursch:

say that if there was only one person on Earth, Christ would've died for you.

Doug Bursch:

I think if there was only one person on Earth, God would've created another

Doug Bursch:

person because for us to understand God, God at some level is community.

Doug Bursch:

And don't worry, I'm not some sort of wacko here.

Doug Bursch:

I have Trinitarian uh, theology.

Doug Bursch:

I was on the doctrine committee for a denomination I used to be in.

Doug Bursch:

I was the lead reviser of their doctrine books.

Doug Bursch:

So I'm doctrinally sound in this, at least in their consideration.

Doug Bursch:

But God is community.

Doug Bursch:

Three persons in one.

Doug Bursch:

This mystery of the Trinity, one God.

Doug Bursch:

Three persons.

Doug Bursch:

So God is relationship, God is community.

Doug Bursch:

And at some level, for us to understand the community of God, we need to

Doug Bursch:

be in some sort of relationship.

Doug Bursch:

It's different than it is with our concept of Father, son, and Holy Spirit.

Doug Bursch:

But the Bible doesn't back away from that, that it's not good for us to be alone.

Doug Bursch:

We're supposed to be in community dependent upon each other.

Doug Bursch:

In fact, much of why Jesus ministered in community that's

Doug Bursch:

how we're supposed to minister.

Doug Bursch:

We'll say, well, he had disciples because he was making you know

Doug Bursch:

Jesus', and he's gonna help them and then they're gonna do what he does.

Doug Bursch:

That's not why Jesus had disciples.

Doug Bursch:

Jesus had disciples because it would've been sin for him to minister alone.

Doug Bursch:

No human is supposed to minister alone.

Doug Bursch:

So that's the part where I challenge people who've been hurt

Doug Bursch:

by the church regardless of the structural concept of the church.

Doug Bursch:

We need to be in community.

Doug Bursch:

Now.

Doug Bursch:

That can be what I.

Doug Bursch:

three people at your house, is to me at some level where you're together.

Doug Bursch:

you're focusing on Jesus, focusing on the gospel, and maybe you

Doug Bursch:

disagree with some of these things.

Doug Bursch:

Well, whatever you believe theologically, you're coming together and you're focusing

Doug Bursch:

in on that, and then people can feed into your life and you can feed into theirs.

Doug Bursch:

Now, I tend to think the group needs to be big enough that you

Doug Bursch:

can be annoyed by people and small enough that you can know people.

Doug Bursch:

Because if you just structure stuff around, you know the people you like.

Doug Bursch:

I don't know if you're really gonna get the heart of God with

Doug Bursch:

concepts of grace and love.

Doug Bursch:

And this is what I see with some of the megachurch people.

Doug Bursch:

They've been hurt by megachurches.

Doug Bursch:

So they take the friends that they got at the megachurch and then they hive

Doug Bursch:

off and they have this safe, wonderful community where they can talk about

Doug Bursch:

what's wrong with that megachurch.

Doug Bursch:

that's a part of it.

Doug Bursch:

But you gotta open that group to the annoying person, to the person

Doug Bursch:

who has mental health issues, to the poor person who needs help, or

Doug Bursch:

the rich person's a little arrogant.

Doug Bursch:

And you gotta find a way to tell 'em it's not all about money.

Doug Bursch:

So that's the kind of stuff I talk with as far as the structures of our church.

Doug Bursch:

Every structure becomes corrupted with power in people, and I tend

Doug Bursch:

to be very cynical in that sense.

Doug Bursch:

I've had this idea that I was gonna change structures and, every time I've tried it,

Doug Bursch:

it hasn't gone very well, but I think, I'm gonna stand before the Lord, like Shadrach

Doug Bursch:

MHA and ab Bendigo and say, I'm not gonna bow down I, I think you'll rescue me.

Doug Bursch:

But even if you don't, I'm not gonna bow down to those structures and systems.

Doug Bursch:

So I've made choices even recently where it's impacted me greatly financially,

Doug Bursch:

uh, in, in the point where barely making it financially, giving up all kinds

Doug Bursch:

of opportunities because ultimately I'm gonna stand before the Lord.

Doug Bursch:

This life's very short, and I don't want to ever trade my faith with God

Doug Bursch:

so that I can work within some sort of system denominational structure.

Doug Bursch:

Uh, whatever, whatever, structure defines us,

Tim Winders:

I agree with all of that.

Tim Winders:

I agree with everything because it bothers me that I.

Tim Winders:

we travel, Doug, we're we live in our motor coach.

Tim Winders:

We've been traveling now for over 10 years.

Tim Winders:

We pop in and out of, we popped in and out of churches for a while, and then the

Tim Winders:

more I popped in and out of churches, I got tired of the mindset in most churches.

Tim Winders:

I'll just say this, this is not all was, this is where God is.

Tim Winders:

This is where you need to be.

Tim Winders:

You need to be here 24 7.

Tim Winders:

We open up the doors.

Tim Winders:

By the way, would you like to be in charge of the parking lot ministry because you

Tim Winders:

seem like someone who's somewhat fit and you could get up early on Sunday mornings.

Tim Winders:

And I only slightly joke about that.

Tim Winders:

And yes, there was some sarcasm and cynicism in that statement,

Tim Winders:

but, and I just started thinking to myself, I don't think.

Tim Winders:

This is correct and so maybe, and maybe this is where you're at landing right now.

Tim Winders:

I'm just, we spend a lot, my wife and I spend a lot of personal time.

Tim Winders:

I, we are digging down into things that, that we may or may not have

Tim Winders:

dug into spiritually with, you know, attending some type of structure.

Tim Winders:

And I'm pulling for the structure.

Tim Winders:

I really do want the structure to work.

Tim Winders:

I just, I don't

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

Well, and here's the thing.

Doug Bursch:

I think it, it really is about it.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

I think it's about relationship.

Doug Bursch:

For instance, I'll always be involved in a church community.

Doug Bursch:

That's just a calling thing for me.

Doug Bursch:

So the moment I stopped pastoring, I was, I took a couple weeks off

Doug Bursch:

just 'cause I hadn't not gone to church for three weeks and 24 years.

Doug Bursch:

Like, I pastored the same church for 24 years.

Doug Bursch:

I was like, what does this feel like?

Doug Bursch:

But then that was a spirit led thing.

Doug Bursch:

if I were to put this in someone else that would me being an intermediary

Doug Bursch:

and I don't believe it's my job to be someone's Holy Spirit.

Doug Bursch:

So for me, I prayed and we had brought into a community where

Doug Bursch:

now I go to this Lutheran church and it's not Pentecostal, but.

Doug Bursch:

Relationally, we know we're called to minister with those people.

Doug Bursch:

Because I talk about this in the book community of God, I don't

Doug Bursch:

think you go to a church like, how does this meet my needs?

Doug Bursch:

You go based on, how can I minister in this community and be of value?

Doug Bursch:

So often you're called to places that don't have what you want.

Doug Bursch:

people used to leave our church 'cause they'd say, oh, we love

Doug Bursch:

you, pastor, but you know, you just don't have enough for our children.

Doug Bursch:

our children, we were, we're concerned about their faith.

Doug Bursch:

And I wanted to say to them, oh, I'm so glad you're leaving.

Doug Bursch:

My kids have to stay here, so they're probably gonna go to hell.

Doug Bursch:

But if you can escape, if you can, just that concept, and that's the

Doug Bursch:

American concept, that I need certain things to be okay, which is not true.

Doug Bursch:

you don't, and we all know that in relationships we've committed to, you

Doug Bursch:

commit to there, there's boundaries in a marriage where there's reasons

Doug Bursch:

to divorce and there's reasons that you should no longer be with someone.

Doug Bursch:

But we all have this commitment thing that says the commitment is

Doug Bursch:

bigger than the difficulties, right?

Doug Bursch:

And then you learn to live within those difficulties.

Doug Bursch:

In, in olden days, you had two churches in town and they had a

Doug Bursch:

graveyard next door, and people would get a plot next door to the church.

Doug Bursch:

No one would do that today.

Doug Bursch:

'cause it would require a commitment, that no one wants to make.

Doug Bursch:

Now, all kinds of problems with that.

Doug Bursch:

And so I'm not saying people have to commit for life to a community, but

Doug Bursch:

for me, that's the decision I've made.

Doug Bursch:

I think this is one of the biggest problems with the church

Doug Bursch:

and why we're seeing corruption.

Doug Bursch:

this is just one of many I see the documentaries as well.

Doug Bursch:

I have friends who've been hurt by the church.

Doug Bursch:

I, most of the people online Christians I deal with no longer

Doug Bursch:

go to church have been hurt.

Doug Bursch:

But they'll say, but you're okay.

Doug Bursch:

I don't like any of those other pastors, but I'll talk to you thing.

Doug Bursch:

Um, I know like in the denominational setting, I was in.

Doug Bursch:

No matter how you look at it, and this happens across the board, larger

Doug Bursch:

churches go into positions of power.

Doug Bursch:

pastors of larger churches get platformed more, and we use church

Doug Bursch:

growth as an assessment for health.

Doug Bursch:

And the idea is if it's growing, it's healthy or we do this.

Doug Bursch:

If a church is growing.

Doug Bursch:

Then if there are problems, we downplay those problems because we'll

Doug Bursch:

say, clearly God has blessed this church so God wouldn't bless this

Doug Bursch:

church and allow for those problems.

Doug Bursch:

I saw that with Mark Driscoll in Seattle, and I'm not saying something

Doug Bursch:

out of there's whole, Christianity Today did a whole podcast series on him.

Doug Bursch:

I interviewed Mark.

Doug Bursch:

Uh, I tried to be very gracious and kind with Mark throughout his

Doug Bursch:

tenure in Seattle, even though he was very arrogant and is very arrogant.

Doug Bursch:

But I would see in Mark, my issue for Mark is he had growth as a young

Doug Bursch:

man, and I think he equated that growth where I must be blessed.

Doug Bursch:

And so then he minimized all his faults.

Doug Bursch:

Now that those faults could have been 1% of his personality or 10% of

Doug Bursch:

his personality, it doesn't matter.

Doug Bursch:

Once you justify and codify and sanctify faults, and I

Doug Bursch:

call these satanic footholds.

Doug Bursch:

then incredible evil can occur.

Doug Bursch:

And if you look in most church corruptions, that's what happens.

Doug Bursch:

Well, well, he's a good guy and he's a good preacher.

Doug Bursch:

And look at all the good he's done.

Doug Bursch:

And yeah, there was that accusation about, women or, yeah, he, sometimes

Doug Bursch:

he has a temper, but you know, God's anointed sometimes, you know, all

Doug Bursch:

the garbage that we use to justify that is a problem in my own life.

Doug Bursch:

And it's a problem in a leader's life.

Doug Bursch:

And so we put a leader in a position.

Doug Bursch:

I think we even do this with our national leaders outside the church.

Doug Bursch:

I think we're going through seasons like that where we're seeing that

Doug Bursch:

people will justify depravity if they get what they want, or if

Doug Bursch:

80% of it is good or 90% is good.

Doug Bursch:

And we, that is, that happens in structures and then in structures

Doug Bursch:

where you then can't remove the person or the consequences.

Doug Bursch:

I'll even get at this.

Doug Bursch:

With, with abuse in homes, sometimes people say, why

Doug Bursch:

didn't they deal with abuse?

Doug Bursch:

Like someone will talk about abuse.

Doug Bursch:

had a friend who, when she was like 23, she talked about being abused

Doug Bursch:

when she was, in fifth grade and people were like, well, why didn't

Doug Bursch:

you just talk about it earlier?

Doug Bursch:

Well, the moment she shared that.

Doug Bursch:

The family just fell apart because the abuse was in the family.

Doug Bursch:

Suddenly people knew about it and everything changed, and there

Doug Bursch:

were parts of that family that she didn't want to fall apart.

Doug Bursch:

And this is what happens in churches.

Doug Bursch:

Like, I like this community.

Doug Bursch:

I, we, there are good relationships and I know if we confront this thing.

Doug Bursch:

This place is going to be devastated.

Doug Bursch:

I'm not saying this is a good reason to do this, but this is why people do that.

Doug Bursch:

and they wait.

Doug Bursch:

And then the foothill, footholds get greater and the hidden is

Doug Bursch:

even more hidden than we realize.

Doug Bursch:

Uh, so that's the big stuff.

Doug Bursch:

The other stuff just about an arrogant leader who's controlling people

Doug Bursch:

and all those money dynamics, all those praising people for growth.

Doug Bursch:

We need different measurements, I think.

Doug Bursch:

And I think they're more, and, and I think you and I have connected on

Doug Bursch:

this probably a lot through Twitter is the spirit in which we communicate.

Doug Bursch:

That for me is everything.

Doug Bursch:

Uh, there, there was a presidential candidate when he was among 10 other

Doug Bursch:

candidates where I was like, I will never vote for this person based on

Doug Bursch:

his attitude, just his spirit alone.

Doug Bursch:

And I remember Christians going, he's not a pastor, he's a politician.

Doug Bursch:

if you think that depending upon your role, you can no longer be

Doug Bursch:

Christ-like, or no longer be loving.

Doug Bursch:

then we're in trouble.

Doug Bursch:

And I think there's a part of the church like that.

Doug Bursch:

Well, if he's a leader, he can be a jerk in certain situations.

Doug Bursch:

'cause he's a leader and if Christ showed us anything, it's the exact opposite.

Doug Bursch:

It's he, although above all, he lowered himself and became nothing.

Doug Bursch:

And the servant of all.

Doug Bursch:

So how many people wanna be in leadership positions and be servant of all?

Doug Bursch:

That's probably another problem with any institution and structure.

Doug Bursch:

I thought I wanted to be a servant, but even there, there's an arrogance of,

Doug Bursch:

I get fed by a, do you like my sermon?

Doug Bursch:

Do you not like my sermon?

Doug Bursch:

The ego is so much in intertwined in these gatherings that I think we need

Doug Bursch:

to at least have much more conversation where people can come in and say, Hey

Doug Bursch:

Doug, you're getting a little this and I don't cast them out of the church,

Doug Bursch:

or they don't fire me immediately.

Doug Bursch:

We need to have environments where we can have those discussions.

Tim Winders:

I've always, I've been saying for some time now that I'm

Tim Winders:

not sure that men, most men can handle the mantle of leadership.

Tim Winders:

Once it gets to a certain point, it crosses over.

Tim Winders:

Now we don't wanna go down this controversial path.

Tim Winders:

I think women can handle it better.

Tim Winders:

Truthfully, . But most men, we have a tendency, it feeds us.

Tim Winders:

feeds us.

Doug Bursch:

Well, and Kate.

Doug Bursch:

And why is that?

Doug Bursch:

Just say there's no gender difference there.

Doug Bursch:

There might be, let's just say there isn't.

Doug Bursch:

One

Doug Bursch:

of the things women have had to do for thousands and thousands of years is work

Doug Bursch:

with, in situations where they didn't have power, they had to find ways to work where

Doug Bursch:

they weren't the leader, they had no a.

Doug Bursch:

Authority in the culture.

Doug Bursch:

And so they found ways to figure out what's important and

Doug Bursch:

central and what's secondary.

Doug Bursch:

seen this women will work through, in the church, they'll work through conflicts.

Doug Bursch:

They'll work through, they'll talk about, 'cause they've had

Doug Bursch:

to do that in so many settings.

Doug Bursch:

Men be the controller of their home, controller of their

Doug Bursch:

house, control it, right?

Doug Bursch:

The moment someone challenges, like when two men get in a fight, they both leave

Doug Bursch:

and no one ever talks to anybody again.

Doug Bursch:

they're just gone.

Doug Bursch:

So I think that is one of the reasons why a healthier, diverse

Doug Bursch:

expression within the church.

Doug Bursch:

And I do believe women should be pastors, but even if you didn't

Doug Bursch:

believe that theologically, you better have women in every role of

Doug Bursch:

being able to speak and communicate.

Doug Bursch:

And because I've found men tend to struggle more with the communication

Doug Bursch:

issues often because they didn't have to.

Doug Bursch:

They could just go to role, they could go to position, and they could go to power.

Doug Bursch:

When you don't have position, role, and power, Then you have to learn how

Doug Bursch:

to talk to people and those are the kinds of people you want in positions

Doug Bursch:

of authority or they've learned how to communicate their emotions, to communicate

Doug Bursch:

their ideas and not just be, I'm the boss, so take it, love it, or leave it.

Doug Bursch:

Like they don't ever get to do that.

Doug Bursch:

And so they don't do it in the position of power because they

Doug Bursch:

found other ways to communicate.

Tim Winders:

I love that

Doug Bursch:

Is that too political?

Tim Winders:

no.

Tim Winders:

Because that, I think we're about to go down there a little

Tim Winders:

bit deeper because I wanna.

Tim Winders:

I wanna ask questions about it 'cause I think it's very informative,

Tim Winders:

the direction we're headed here.

Tim Winders:

I love that you brought up the Mars Hill, the Mark Driscoll and I guess

Tim Winders:

I did know you were in that part of the country and so you probably

Tim Winders:

have some unique perspective and, and it was really interesting.

Tim Winders:

I'll also bring up one other situation that we became aware of.

Tim Winders:

We, my wife and I spent about nine months over in Australia and New Zealand back

Tim Winders:

in 2014, it was a very unique time.

Tim Winders:

We were popping in and out of churches over there, and we popped in and out of

Tim Winders:

about eight campuses of Hillsong and we were there when, When Brian Houston, it

Tim Winders:

came out, again, some issues with his father and some, Pedophilia and different

Tim Winders:

things like that with his father.

Tim Winders:

so we were there when he was addressing those issues.

Tim Winders:

And I wanna say it was very similar to what you just brought up, or at

Tim Winders:

least it sounded that way at the time.

Tim Winders:

I wanna say that, that it sounded as if, listen, we're, we're trying to address

Tim Winders:

this as best we can in light of this is an organization that we also wanna

Tim Winders:

keep it intact and not just blow it up.

Tim Winders:

So that I'll, that's a little bit

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

the way I said that.

Tim Winders:

But the reason I bring it up is I've seen situations and

Tim Winders:

I'm, I'm an executive coach.

Tim Winders:

I work with leaders of organizations and things like that.

Tim Winders:

So leadership is what I try to study and have some degree of

Tim Winders:

knowledge of my observation with a Mark Driscoll or almost any.

Tim Winders:

Organization that I see where someone starts, what we'll call

Tim Winders:

a startup or a church plant.

Tim Winders:

It begins growing.

Tim Winders:

You use the word growth and I'm sometimes wondering if maybe growth is

Tim Winders:

something that we should be pursuing.

Tim Winders:

It needs, it doesn't need to be the idol that we make it, but that's what

Tim Winders:

we measure in our culture and society is how many people are sitting in the seats?

Tim Winders:

What kind of money, what does the building look like, things like that.

Tim Winders:

I perceive that at some point, let's just use look at Mark for

Tim Winders:

example, that he was really pure of heart with what he was doing.

Tim Winders:

It was building, building, building, building, and somewhere

Tim Winders:

along the way it seems like.

Tim Winders:

Something flipped and he moved into protection mode instead

Tim Winders:

of what is God doing here mode.

Tim Winders:

And I know that might be oversimplifying, but when I have run into struggles

Tim Winders:

with leaders just that I work with or that I see personally, Doug, what

Tim Winders:

I see is, is they've gotten in the mode of I need to protect this entity,

Tim Winders:

this organism, this organization, and I need to protect it at all costs.

Tim Winders:

We're doing good, we're getting people baptized, we're people are being healed.

Tim Winders:

This is happening, whatever it's, we're selling Apple watches, whatever it is

Tim Winders:

we're doing, and I need to protect it.

Tim Winders:

I think that is when things get pretty toxic and dangerous.

Tim Winders:

What are your thoughts on that or observations?

Tim Winders:

You could tell me I'm wrong.

Tim Winders:

If you think I'm wrong, I'm okay with it.

Doug Bursch:

Oh, you're completely wrong.

Doug Bursch:

No, I think you're hitting right at some of those issues there.

Doug Bursch:

Really.

Doug Bursch:

Um, .I would love to write a book on this of, in Romans, the beginning of Romans.

Doug Bursch:

Paul says that one of the sins that humans did, and it's confusion, is

Doug Bursch:

he talking about all of humanities?

Doug Bursch:

Is he talking about Israel?

Doug Bursch:

He says they worshiped and served the created instead of the creator.

Doug Bursch:

And some translations say the creature, but I think created works just with

Doug Bursch:

the Greek, it's just hard to know.

Doug Bursch:

It's like Dick and Jane language.

Doug Bursch:

there's not a lot of modifiers.

Doug Bursch:

You don't quite know what it says, but this image of Humans begin to

Doug Bursch:

serve the created versus the creator.

Doug Bursch:

So we see that from the very beginning.

Doug Bursch:

What is, we've got Cain and Abel and, one understands that they get

Doug Bursch:

their provision from the creator.

Doug Bursch:

The other one is I don't need the creator.

Doug Bursch:

Like this concept of Solomon is, gets wisdom.

Doug Bursch:

And what does it use his wisdom for, to pick up women, he's, he like,

Doug Bursch:

he uses what was created Moses, God has him, bring water from the rock.

Doug Bursch:

And then he begins to realize, I can do this without God.

Doug Bursch:

And so he hits the rock and we go, what is that about?

Doug Bursch:

Why is God so concerned with that?

Doug Bursch:

They begin to use what was created in them and they use it for themselves

Doug Bursch:

instead of for the creator.

Doug Bursch:

We have David takes a census and why does he take a census?

Doug Bursch:

Like at some level, God has done all this, but now he's worried I gotta control this

Doug Bursch:

thing and I gotta see how powerful we are.

Doug Bursch:

And so whatever the reason is, he begins to serve the created.

Doug Bursch:

One of the worst things that can happen to you as a Christian as

Doug Bursch:

far as for your faith is you can have your prayers be answered.

Doug Bursch:

Because once your prayers are answered, you can serve the answered

Doug Bursch:

prayer instead of the creator.

Doug Bursch:

And I saw this again and again in 24 years of ministry, when someone is destitute,

Doug Bursch:

a drug addict, no one likes them.

Doug Bursch:

Their kids have kicked them out, or their parents have kicked them

Doug Bursch:

outta their home, they'll come into the church, broken, have nothing.

Doug Bursch:

Jesus accepts them.

Doug Bursch:

they get their life back in order, right?

Doug Bursch:

They get a job.

Doug Bursch:

Maybe they get a relationship and they get married and maybe they have kids.

Doug Bursch:

And what you begin to see as God begins to create beautiful things

Doug Bursch:

in their life, instead of serving the Creator, they begin to serve

Doug Bursch:

the things that God has given them.

Doug Bursch:

They begin to serve the marriage over God, the kids over God, the money over God.

Doug Bursch:

I would say that's what happens with these ministries that grow.

Doug Bursch:

I don't wanna just say they were always wicked, terrible people.

Doug Bursch:

And I, there are people who are just out there to try to swindle.

Doug Bursch:

But I think what happens is, something happens and they see miracles and then

Doug Bursch:

they begin to see, well, look what I did.

Doug Bursch:

Or they begin to take it and be like, this is mine to do what I want with, or

Doug Bursch:

this means I have a special authority.

Doug Bursch:

And so they begin to serve the creator instead of the creator.

Doug Bursch:

I think Christians need to understand this.

Doug Bursch:

Christians have a difficult time, let's say with science.

Doug Bursch:

Science is the best example of God has created us, and now we have this amazing

Doug Bursch:

capacity as humans to do amazing things.

Doug Bursch:

what should the scientists do?

Doug Bursch:

Stop being a scientist.

Doug Bursch:

No, they should just thank God for that capacity.

Doug Bursch:

I thank God that he is giving me this amazing mind to do these things.

Doug Bursch:

What happens sometimes in the scientific community and God's dead, and it's

Doug Bursch:

just about me and how great I am.

Doug Bursch:

So now we have Christians going.

Doug Bursch:

I don't believe those scientists because it's just all about, it's separated from

Doug Bursch:

God and versus like, I thank you for what they've learned and I'm gonna thank

Doug Bursch:

God that God helped these scientists come with this cure, or come with this

Doug Bursch:

vaccine, or whatever those issues are.

Doug Bursch:

So if you look at all these issues of corruption, often it's an Americans, why

Doug Bursch:

wouldn't the American church be corrupted?

Doug Bursch:

Is that we're very prosperous and the more prosperous we become,

Doug Bursch:

we begin to serve the prosperity.

Doug Bursch:

If you were to even argue that America itself is a sign of God's prosperity.

Doug Bursch:

So to me, nationalism is that kind of form of, well, we like this so much and we

Doug Bursch:

have these special gifts, we're just gonna use it for ourselves and we're gonna make

Doug Bursch:

sure no one else in the world gets it.

Doug Bursch:

if we truly are a blessed nation, then we've been blessed

Doug Bursch:

to bless all other nations.

Doug Bursch:

And so that would mean that whatever prosperity we have, it's for the

Doug Bursch:

purpose of sharing it with all peoples.

Doug Bursch:

but that's not how we talk about it.

Doug Bursch:

We're gonna say, this is mine, and I want this.

Doug Bursch:

We have so that nature of serving the creative versus the creative.

Doug Bursch:

So I think that happened with Mark as you gain that power and that authority.

Doug Bursch:

The other thing I've seen with pastors, pastors, and this is I bet you this is

Doug Bursch:

true of businesses as well, when you're very successful at the beginning, you

Doug Bursch:

do less assessing of what's wrong.

Doug Bursch:

you just try to maintain the thing.

Doug Bursch:

You just try to keep it going and they're spending like things are going and

Doug Bursch:

they don't want to mess with anything.

Doug Bursch:

So it's just maintain, and I've seen this in businesses, I've seen this

Doug Bursch:

and, but when you've not done well in the beginning, when you launch

Doug Bursch:

something and no one shows up and it's not successful in the eyes of anyone,

Doug Bursch:

including yourself, what do you do?

Doug Bursch:

Well, you begin to assess everything.

Doug Bursch:

And in assessment, you begin to also learn and mature.

Doug Bursch:

So what I would see of some of these leaders who had led these really

Doug Bursch:

large growing churches is I think they lacked spiritual maturity.

Doug Bursch:

And by the way, I've minister, I've, I don't know, I've interviewed

Doug Bursch:

hundreds of pastors, national leaders.

Doug Bursch:

I've five years at a radio show.

Doug Bursch:

a lot of guys, even the last few years that there's been a

Doug Bursch:

lot of prominence about them.

Doug Bursch:

And I didn't find a greater maturity in those people.

Doug Bursch:

And in fact, sometimes I found a simplicity, which I guess is okay,

Doug Bursch:

but these are the people that were saying, follow them, read their books.

Doug Bursch:

But I found people who really didn't have to struggle with what a lot of

Doug Bursch:

other people had to struggle with.

Doug Bursch:

The children of Israel are not formed in the promised Land.

Doug Bursch:

They're formed in the wilderness.

Doug Bursch:

And when we platform people who don't truly have wilderness experiences,

Doug Bursch:

they're kind of dangerous.

Doug Bursch:

And so my dad used to say this to me.

Doug Bursch:

He'd say, I get it that elders can be 20 years old.

Doug Bursch:

I understand the concept.

Doug Bursch:

God can speak through anyone, he said, but some of your elders gotta be old

Doug Bursch:

because they've gone through this enough.

Doug Bursch:

They've experienced loss, they've experienced deaths, disappointments,

Doug Bursch:

and if they still love Jesus, then that person has some authority to speak.

Doug Bursch:

And I see that in a lot of the platforming of leaders.

Doug Bursch:

And then they, what do they do?

Doug Bursch:

they grow and then they get a conflict.

Doug Bursch:

And now they have all this stuff.

Doug Bursch:

They can't admit that they've been doing things wrong for the last 20 years.

Doug Bursch:

So then they justify everything.

Doug Bursch:

they don't grow as individuals.

Doug Bursch:

They don't, even like we mentioned Mark earlier, and I get hesitant even, 'cause

Doug Bursch:

I don't want Mark Driscoll to set the agenda of ano another conversation, but I

Doug Bursch:

always talked as if Mark was in the room.

Doug Bursch:

And I hope I'm doing this even now.

Doug Bursch:

To me, mark lost his authority.

Doug Bursch:

The authority he wanted to have impact that no matter what he does in life, he'll

Doug Bursch:

always be seen as this person who harmed so many people and refused to reconcile.

Doug Bursch:

Because what he did in Seattle is they were putting him on a discipline process.

Doug Bursch:

The goal was to restore, but he had to admit that he had faults, big faults.

Doug Bursch:

But instead of going through the process of reconciliation with the

Doug Bursch:

people who had hurt, he had hurt.

Doug Bursch:

He just left that and started something somewhere else.

Doug Bursch:

And that's gonna happen again and again.

Doug Bursch:

So even there, the critique there is stop codifying everything

Doug Bursch:

you've done to this point.

Doug Bursch:

God lives in the eternal.

Doug Bursch:

Now turn to Jesus.

Doug Bursch:

Let him look at all the things that you know are broken and

Doug Bursch:

this is the ideological part.

Doug Bursch:

Maybe this could never happen, but That's still my heart for him.

Doug Bursch:

Not to toss him out, but for him to go through the process of reconciliation,

Doug Bursch:

which might mean he's never a pastor again, but at least he's in right

Doug Bursch:

relationship with the thousands of people that were harmed based on

Doug Bursch:

the ministry that he did in Seattle

Tim Winders:

I do wonder if sometimes we have people that

Tim Winders:

they box themselves in a corner.

Tim Winders:

You mentioned this.

Tim Winders:

I think they get elevated.

Tim Winders:

They get elevated, and then they look around and they go.

Tim Winders:

Hmm.

Tim Winders:

I don't think I could do anything else, or

Tim Winders:

I don't think I could ever have the impact or, uh, people are gonna find

Tim Winders:

out that I'm a fraud or, we could just

Doug Bursch:

Oh, Yeah.

Tim Winders:

run through the gamut.

Doug Bursch:

can't afford to leave the ministry.

Doug Bursch:

I can't do anything else.

Doug Bursch:

I can't, I know people who have different theologies than what they preach, and

Doug Bursch:

they talk to me privately, but they don't feel like they'd be able to survive.

Doug Bursch:

And I've always thought of anything.

Doug Bursch:

I wanna be in a position where I can turn in that if I'm going

Doug Bursch:

the wrong direction, I can turn.

Doug Bursch:

I never wanna be in a place where I'm stuck.

Doug Bursch:

I have so much debt, I have so much, whatever.

Doug Bursch:

Uh, now maybe other people don't have that luxury.

Doug Bursch:

But you've hit it.

Doug Bursch:

They, or even psychologically, because they've been propping up.

Doug Bursch:

A myth, like not all of it's a myth, but they've been propping a myth that

Doug Bursch:

they're a good person, a myth that they're

Doug Bursch:

whatever it is.

Doug Bursch:

and they would have to come to true repentance and how many people truly

Doug Bursch:

repent and that part of cancel culture.

Doug Bursch:

Like I believe people, pastors can repent, but it doesn't mean they

Doug Bursch:

can be pastors again if they've lost the trust of the communities.

Doug Bursch:

I think that's what first and second Timothy and Titus deal with.

Doug Bursch:

But I do think we do need to have space that people can talk about the

Doug Bursch:

darkness, without just being you're the evil person we never talk to again.

Doug Bursch:

There must be a place where someone can say, I've been

Doug Bursch:

engaging in a behavior where I'm meeting before it all falls apart.

Doug Bursch:

some way to be able to, before it falls apart.

Doug Bursch:

Whether that happens or not, I don't know, but I think you're exactly right.

Doug Bursch:

By the time they get to this place, They still should turn, but it's so

Doug Bursch:

hard to turn to quit to change because they've invested so much in it.

Doug Bursch:

And then also there's such a trail of darkness that they either have to

Doug Bursch:

justify it or they would just crumble under the weight of what they've done.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

I think we've seen such, so many rare situations where, number

Tim Winders:

one, we've seen repentance, number two, we've seen something that

Tim Winders:

people would be restoration.

Tim Winders:

I have never liked the six months away from the pulpit.

Tim Winders:

And then you're back in, you've gone through counseling.

Tim Winders:

Here's the microphone again.

Tim Winders:

you're so talented.

Tim Winders:

You're such a great speaker.

Tim Winders:

We've got to have you in the pulpit.

Tim Winders:

That, to me, really just reeks of hypocrisy and, all types of things.

Tim Winders:

But let's do the, I wanna do this, Doug.

Tim Winders:

I want to, because we can talk about the problems all day long,

Tim Winders:

and I don't know that you and I know the solutions, however.

Tim Winders:

Neither one of us are young bucks that are just getting started in life.

Tim Winders:

We've been around the block a few times.

Tim Winders:

how old are you?

Tim Winders:

I'm, you're not a woman.

Tim Winders:

I could ask you that point blank.

Tim Winders:

How old are you?

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

I'm trying to think how old I am now.

Doug Bursch:

I think I'm 52.

Doug Bursch:

I

Doug Bursch:

either 52.

Doug Bursch:

or 53.

Doug Bursch:

I was Those who can do math.

Doug Bursch:

I was born January 29th, 1972.

Doug Bursch:

And then you can figure that out depending upon when you're listening to this.

Doug Bursch:

But yeah,

Tim Winders:

1972.

Tim Winders:

I'm trying to think of what was going on there.

Tim Winders:

I was born three days before JFK was shot,

Doug Bursch:

there you go.

Tim Winders:

so

Doug Bursch:

you're part of the conspiracy is that

Tim Winders:

I was there.

Tim Winders:

And,

Doug Bursch:

you're in the

Tim Winders:

the grassy knoll is

Doug Bursch:

there was a pregnant Yeah, that's right.

Tim Winders:

it was not,

Doug Bursch:

A newborn child.

Tim Winders:

real and all that.

Tim Winders:

But I think the thing I'd love for us to discuss here, Doug, with

Tim Winders:

All this wisdom that we have here, I get the impression, tell me

Tim Winders:

if I'm right or wrong, that you have quite a bit of experience.

Tim Winders:

You've put a lot of thought into things.

Tim Winders:

you really, uh, are, are serious even though we joke some about your

Tim Winders:

spiritual walk, but you also don't believe that you know everything.

Tim Winders:

If I'm incorrect on any of that, correct me.

Doug Bursch:

Well here, here's the deal.

Doug Bursch:

Put hook up me to a lie detector.

Doug Bursch:

Probably my subconscious is way more arrogant than my outward like, but I

Doug Bursch:

know that my subconscious is probably a liar 'cause it gives me crazy dreams at

Doug Bursch:

night and I shouldn't trust that guy.

Doug Bursch:

So there's a part of me that certainly has the arrogance of, let me give

Doug Bursch:

you my opinion 'cause it's the most important opinion in the room.

Doug Bursch:

But I just, the nature of it is how could we remotely think that

Doug Bursch:

we understand the fullness of God?

Doug Bursch:

Or even, you know, the, like that part, like how would I even begin to

Doug Bursch:

think, I could say, here's the three things God does, maybe there's four.

Doug Bursch:

it's just absurd.

Doug Bursch:

If I did that for you, if any person said, this is what you

Doug Bursch:

need to believe about Doug.

Doug Bursch:

I.

Doug Bursch:

Just, these are the four things about Doug and we all unite around these four things.

Doug Bursch:

They would be wrong.

Doug Bursch:

Not one group on this planet, even if they gave me an Enneagram test,

Doug Bursch:

could not say, this is who Doug is.

Doug Bursch:

And yet the arrogance to unite around and, just, tell people

Doug Bursch:

they're going to hell because we think we have it all figured out.

Doug Bursch:

Now.

Doug Bursch:

I have strong opinions and I will tell you them, and in some ways I'm very much,

Doug Bursch:

and I believe the Bible's a sacred book and things that people will be like, ah,

Doug Bursch:

boy, you're one of those conservatives.

Doug Bursch:

In fact, I take it all as God's word.

Doug Bursch:

And, but then people go, they'll ask me to parse that out.

Doug Bursch:

And what I mean by that, I go, I don't know what I mean by that.

Doug Bursch:

I just mean that I'm gonna take this as the sacred book and

Doug Bursch:

it's God's fault if it isn't.

Doug Bursch:

Like this is the book that I'm reading and this is the one I believe, and, but

Doug Bursch:

the concept to think that you have it all figured out and I'm still growing.

Doug Bursch:

And I'm still, and I think when you're in the center of God's

Doug Bursch:

grace, you can look at your life.

Doug Bursch:

And I think one of the reasons people don't look at their sins and their

Doug Bursch:

faults and the failings is they don't understand a gospel of grace.

Doug Bursch:

That I believe I'm in the center of God's grace.

Doug Bursch:

I'm not on the edge, and I'm gonna fall off, out into the

Doug Bursch:

abyss of darkness and death.

Doug Bursch:

And if I'm in the center of God's grace and love, then I can

Doug Bursch:

say, search my heart, know me.

Doug Bursch:

And if there'd be any wicked way in me, reveal it.

Doug Bursch:

And that's another problem with these church cultures.

Doug Bursch:

If we don't have that conception, like I would say in our church,

Doug Bursch:

there's no super spiritual people.

Doug Bursch:

We all have the same amount of the spirit.

Doug Bursch:

There's no, there's no, we just do it.

Doug Bursch:

There's no super, I use fairly spiritual as a moniker.

Doug Bursch:

I use, my website is fairly spiritual.org.

Doug Bursch:

It's a play on words.

Doug Bursch:

People say, well, I'm fairly spiritual.

Doug Bursch:

they joke about that.

Doug Bursch:

But the idea is there's no hierarchy of spirituality.

Doug Bursch:

There's no intermediaries.

Doug Bursch:

Now I got opinions, I'm gonna share them.

Doug Bursch:

Do they connect with what God is talking with you about?

Doug Bursch:

Sure.

Doug Bursch:

But if you say, the reason I'm doing this is 'cause Doug said it

Doug Bursch:

in a podcast, you are in trouble.

Doug Bursch:

And I'm in trouble.

Doug Bursch:

So I don't believe that I have it all figured out.

Doug Bursch:

I'm still trying to be open, um, to, help me Lord.

Doug Bursch:

Especially with my own life.

Doug Bursch:

I tend to be, I'm a little dissatisfied with, man, Doug, you could grow in this.

Doug Bursch:

You could be a better husband, you could be a better father.

Doug Bursch:

And I don't wanna be guilt motivated, but I know I have room for growth

Doug Bursch:

and I've never met a person who didn't have room for growth.

Doug Bursch:

And the most scary people are the people who refuse to get help.

Doug Bursch:

The people who refuse to get prayer, the people who never apologize.

Doug Bursch:

Those are the scariest people.

Doug Bursch:

So I don't wanna be associated with that.

Doug Bursch:

I don't want to ever prop up a person, a leader, anyone who is just, look

Doug Bursch:

at how I do it and do it my way.

Doug Bursch:

And I'm the model for success.

Doug Bursch:

I would preach messages where I'm pretty extemporaneous in how I preach.

Doug Bursch:

And I would say something and I'd realize I did it for the wrong reasons.

Doug Bursch:

Like, you can say the right things for the wrong reasons.

Doug Bursch:

And it's sin, it's, in my opinion, this is the old time.

Doug Bursch:

It's sin.

Doug Bursch:

And I would say something and people might shake their head like, that's right.

Doug Bursch:

But I know I'm saying it because I'm upset about something that was done to me.

Doug Bursch:

And I'm saying it 'cause I've been hurt.

Doug Bursch:

And I would stop in the middle of my sermon.

Doug Bursch:

I'd say, you know what I just said?

Doug Bursch:

I apologize for that.

Doug Bursch:

I'm sorry.

Doug Bursch:

I said that out of hurt.

Doug Bursch:

It might be true that people should do this, but I'm saying it because I'm bitter

Doug Bursch:

about some things that have happened in my life and I, forgive me for that.

Doug Bursch:

Or, and people would come up afterwards and say, you didn't have to say that.

Doug Bursch:

That's true.

Doug Bursch:

People should be that way.

Doug Bursch:

But that's to me, how God sees things that the condition of my heart, the

Doug Bursch:

motivation of my heart and the church that doesn't acknowledge that reality

Doug Bursch:

is in trouble where I can look good.

Doug Bursch:

Like in this podcast it can be, I can fool you all, but God knows my heart.

Doug Bursch:

And in my heart I've still got room to grow.

Doug Bursch:

I still have.

Doug Bursch:

And that even that issue, like I'll probably be thinking about.

Doug Bursch:

Doug, be careful.

Doug Bursch:

Do you talk about Mark Driscoll?

Doug Bursch:

Because you're bitter, because you're resentful, because you're, because

Doug Bursch:

no matter what, if you hooked me up to a lie detector that worked

Doug Bursch:

in this context, there's a part of me that is a little resentful.

Doug Bursch:

Shouldn't be, but is he succeeded.

Doug Bursch:

I didn't.

Doug Bursch:

He got the platform.

Doug Bursch:

I didn't, you know what?

Doug Bursch:

It's still there.

Doug Bursch:

And I think as Christians, if we could acknowledge that duplicity in

Doug Bursch:

us, not only do we not have it all figured out, but there's duplicity.

Doug Bursch:

You can say you love someone, but also inwardly be like,

Doug Bursch:

ah, person kind of bothers me.

Doug Bursch:

Like we have to acknowledge that duplicity so God can minister to the whole person.

Doug Bursch:

If we don't, then we allow a part of our personality to be in isolation and

Doug Bursch:

in darkness, and then we're dangerous.

Tim Winders:

So one of the things that is such a challenge in that arena is

Tim Winders:

that we are looking, I don't wanna say we're looking for a savior, but

Tim Winders:

that 'cause that's a little harsh.

Tim Winders:

I think people are looking for saviors in the form of people, let's say mostly men,

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

and they're looking for that in the form of who's in the

Tim Winders:

pulpit, who's head of my organization, if I'm in a company who's the person

Tim Winders:

sitting in my state house or my White House or things like that.

Tim Winders:

And so one of the things that I think is causing our issues, and

Tim Winders:

we don't definitely know this, is causing the issues over on

Tim Winders:

the social platforms if we go

Doug Bursch:

yeah,

Tim Winders:

is that we are looking for, I don't even, I don't even know if

Tim Winders:

perfection is the right word, Doug, but we're looking for people to look up to.

Tim Winders:

I'm not sure that there are many people that we can, and then once

Tim Winders:

we find who we think that person is, we latch onto them and we can see no

Tim Winders:

wrong in them or things like that.

Tim Winders:

And and the reason I'm bringing all this up, and this is maybe something

Tim Winders:

I want us to discuss here in the last few minutes we have, is that

Tim Winders:

we're recording this in early 2024.

Tim Winders:

I don't know exactly when it'll release probably sometime around the next

Tim Winders:

few weeks or something like that.

Tim Winders:

This is an election year.

Tim Winders:

And election years have a tendency to bring out the worst in some of

Tim Winders:

the things we're talking about.

Tim Winders:

And especially in the church world too, by the way.

Tim Winders:

We're not, in fact, we're part of the problem, not

Tim Winders:

necessarily part of the solution.

Tim Winders:

And so one of the things I'd love to ask Doug, is where are you

Tim Winders:

landing now with how you gauge?

Tim Winders:

I, I don't know what the words judge you, filter, parse, whatever.

Tim Winders:

Leaders and what you see in others and how you determine who you really wanna

Tim Winders:

listen to and who you wanna say, you know what, I don't wanna listen to 'em.

Tim Winders:

You've already said you're a peacemaker, so you're, I'm guessing you're not

Tim Winders:

gonna blast one person over the other.

Tim Winders:

I would let one know that I disagree with them, but you More of a peacemaker.

Tim Winders:

But how does someone navigate this environment that we're in,

Tim Winders:

in a year, like we're in today?

Tim Winders:

And I know, I know you don't know all the answers, but, because I also get the

Tim Winders:

feeling that you've been on a journey where two years ago you did it differently

Tim Winders:

than maybe you did it four years ago, that you did it eight years ago, that you did

Tim Winders:

it probably growing up the way you did.

Tim Winders:

Is that a, is that even a fair question?

Tim Winders:

Sorry,

Doug Bursch:

No, it's not fair.

Doug Bursch:

And how dare you.

Doug Bursch:

Uh, so I was raised in an interesting environment.

Doug Bursch:

My parents' favorite president was President Carter.

Doug Bursch:

So that can tell you we were in evangelical circles, but he

Doug Bursch:

was not liked by evangelicals.

Doug Bursch:

But I knew he was a Christian and I knew he wasn't acting.

Doug Bursch:

he actually is a Christian, whether

Doug Bursch:

you liked his

Tim Winders:

I wanna PI wanna pause you just to get context here.

Tim Winders:

I grew up in the state of Georgia and we did not vote for Jimmy Carter

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

And so my son's middle name is Carter.

Doug Bursch:

that's the, but I'm not, you know, I've felt disillusioned that I often feel

Doug Bursch:

like there's no place for me to go.

Doug Bursch:

So I, as far as politically, it's been a struggle.

Doug Bursch:

But here's the issue is that this is a really hard thing to tell anyone.

Doug Bursch:

I have, in the book posting piece, I have a chapter on when justice

Doug Bursch:

demands conflict, one of the struggles, I don't, Christians will do this.

Doug Bursch:

They'll say, let's say they did this with Trump.

Doug Bursch:

they'd be like, I'm a Republican.

Doug Bursch:

I'll never be a Democrat, but I don't like Trump, so I'm just not voting.

Doug Bursch:

And they'll see that as like a more virtuous thing.

Doug Bursch:

And it's not, it could certainly be a choice, but there's nothing

Doug Bursch:

more virtuous about that.

Doug Bursch:

And it's probably a sign that you have a level of privilege because

Doug Bursch:

if I probably will be least impacted of whoever's our next president.

Doug Bursch:

versus other people will have severe impacts, especially

Doug Bursch:

minorities, for instance.

Doug Bursch:

so for me to say, this is what you should do, just get along and, don't

Doug Bursch:

worry about politics and the, I don't have the perspective of, my, my Hispanic

Doug Bursch:

friends, you know, I don't, I don't know.

Doug Bursch:

or any, and this doesn't mean that would go towards one party or not.

Doug Bursch:

It's just, so that's, I gotta be very careful to come in and say,

Doug Bursch:

I found the solution to this.

Doug Bursch:

I'm pretty disillusioned, disillusioned by but I think we're in a season of anything.

Doug Bursch:

A lot of people have called themselves Christian.

Doug Bursch:

We have an expression of cultural Christianity and at some level I

Doug Bursch:

think that is crumbling and I'd like it to continue to crumble.

Doug Bursch:

I don't want the decimation of the church But I think we're seeing a radicalization

Doug Bursch:

of people who call themselves Christians, that they're becoming more and more

Doug Bursch:

polarized and more and more political in the sense of, here's an issue

Doug Bursch:

between being political and partisan.

Doug Bursch:

And I talk about this in the book posting piece, political

Doug Bursch:

as I have a political opinion.

Doug Bursch:

And if you're voting, you should have a political opinion.

Doug Bursch:

So if will God will work it out.

Doug Bursch:

this is how God worked it out.

Doug Bursch:

He allows us to vote in our democracy, our republic.

Doug Bursch:

being political is nothing wrong.

Doug Bursch:

Your views on gun control and whatever, partisan is not a Christian virtue.

Doug Bursch:

Partisan is, I want my side to win and your side to lose.

Doug Bursch:

I want it to be my country, not your country.

Doug Bursch:

I want, it's not reconciling partisan communication.

Doug Bursch:

The goal is to destroy you.

Doug Bursch:

The goal is you're the idiots and we're the good guys.

Doug Bursch:

And that's what we're seeing.

Doug Bursch:

The extreme partisanship in our culture where there's less and less people

Doug Bursch:

in the middle that say, how do we engage politically to solve problems

Doug Bursch:

across the aisle as Christians?

Doug Bursch:

I think we should run away from any environment that is,

Doug Bursch:

that reeks the partisanship.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah, in the sense of we're making jokes about those snowflakes or those, and you

Doug Bursch:

see this and you can listen to NPR and they all make a joke about the far right.

Doug Bursch:

And you can listen to far right people, they're joking about and they're not

Doug Bursch:

even Christians, that we do, we'd belittle their faith, we'd belittle

Doug Bursch:

that is not Christ-like, uh, I would never want someone to treat me this

Doug Bursch:

way, so I'm not gonna treat them well.

Doug Bursch:

So that's kind of the process to me.

Doug Bursch:

I look for politicians and there's, it's hard to know at a

Doug Bursch:

national level for that existence.

Doug Bursch:

I think one of the things I talk about in my book is trending local.

Doug Bursch:

If you're struggling with these national things, trend local, find what's happening

Doug Bursch:

in your local community and get connected.

Doug Bursch:

And I don't mean just get connected with radicalized people,

Doug Bursch:

but get to know your mayor.

Doug Bursch:

if you're a small enough town.

Doug Bursch:

Good to know him.

Doug Bursch:

I, the mayor in the town that I ministered for most of the years, we had different

Doug Bursch:

political affiliations, but he's my brother in Christ and I love him.

Doug Bursch:

He's my friend.

Doug Bursch:

I got to know him as a real person and small town.

Doug Bursch:

It's often not whether you're left or right, it's just whether

Doug Bursch:

you can get the roads paved, it's just, it's not the same thing.

Doug Bursch:

In fact, don't elect a small time mayor who's just all partisan.

Doug Bursch:

You want a mayor who can get money to help you with the

Doug Bursch:

things that no one can pay for.

Doug Bursch:

But that's what I would help.

Doug Bursch:

People are so disillusioned.

Doug Bursch:

Maybe you can't even look at the national news.

Doug Bursch:

Find something local, you know, maybe go to the school board.

Doug Bursch:

It'll be hard.

Doug Bursch:

You go to the school board and maybe you'll see a lot of toxic stuff.

Doug Bursch:

And instead of focusing on the toxic stuff, find the one person in that

Doug Bursch:

school board who seems to represent your spirit and encourage them and

Doug Bursch:

say, how can I partner with you and what can we do for the future?

Doug Bursch:

So those are the things to me is find people at some level

Doug Bursch:

have the spirit that you have.

Doug Bursch:

Find a way to partner with them.

Doug Bursch:

And then I also have to believe this is how I've been, this is

Doug Bursch:

how disillusioned I've been.

Doug Bursch:

Even if our entire nation's republic disappears, that God's still good

Doug Bursch:

and in control and I'm gonna be okay.

Doug Bursch:

'cause I cannot move forward believing that the health of my faith and the health

Doug Bursch:

of Christianity is determined by who's the next president or who's the next governor.

Doug Bursch:

I just can't do that.

Doug Bursch:

I have opinions about what will go better or worse.

Doug Bursch:

I am political.

Doug Bursch:

I am very much strong in my convictions, but there's certain context to me.

Doug Bursch:

This is a context where I'm trying to facilitate an environment

Doug Bursch:

where Republicans and Democrats and Green Party and Liberal and

Doug Bursch:

Libertarians are all welcomed.

Doug Bursch:

So I'm gonna try to find a way.

Doug Bursch:

To not just win a point that doesn't really help anyone.

Doug Bursch:

If I communicate something that maybe drew people together, that's one thing.

Doug Bursch:

But if I just, preach to the choir and they're all like, yeah, we agree with you,

Doug Bursch:

Doug, I don't see any purpose in that.

Doug Bursch:

If it doesn't change anyone's heart, why do that?

Doug Bursch:

So instead, let's facilitate spaces where people of different

Doug Bursch:

political opinions can come together.

Doug Bursch:

I know we didn't talk much about that.

Doug Bursch:

I'm glad the book, but Posting Peace talks about, that's the

Doug Bursch:

problem with our internet age.

Doug Bursch:

It's segmenting us into these, these environments that are radicalizing us.

Doug Bursch:

And we have to work against that to find ways to be in community

Doug Bursch:

of, not like-minded people.

Doug Bursch:

Ultimately maybe like spirited people with different opinions about the world.

Tim Winders:

Or I, like I asked you earlier, people that aren't,

Tim Winders:

I know the word dogmatic might be overused, but aren't so dogmatic.

Tim Winders:

I'm concerned that we've got a entire culture, civilization right

Tim Winders:

now that they don't know history.

Tim Winders:

Because I'm sitting here looking at, by the way, I wasn't able to get through

Tim Winders:

the entire book posting piece, but.

Tim Winders:

You wrote possibly one of my favorite chapters that I've read in some time.

Tim Winders:

I think it was chapter six.

Tim Winders:

It was one that I was able to read because you did two things.

Tim Winders:

You combined two things.

Tim Winders:

I think that was the right chapter.

Tim Winders:

You told some great backstory on you, I think when you were sick, when you

Tim Winders:

were in middle school and all that.

Tim Winders:

And then you led into the Jefferson Adams relationship, I think did.

Tim Winders:

But was both that the same chapter?

Tim Winders:

Am I re, did I remember that correctly

Doug Bursch:

I don't remember which chapters then, but Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

So I learned about Doug.

Tim Winders:

and he reflected and showed what to me.

Tim Winders:

I've read, I've read some things historically that was one of the

Tim Winders:

ugliest elections we've ever seen, which we can't even grasp that.

Tim Winders:

People think 2020 was bad.

Tim Winders:

They go, eh, I don't think you're around an 1800.

Tim Winders:

And so I do think we just don't have concept perspective.

Tim Winders:

We're very narrow.

Tim Winders:

We're we think very selfishly of just ourselves and we don't

Tim Winders:

try to look at other things.

Tim Winders:

And I love the message of what you had in posting peace and I believe you're

Tim Winders:

doing this over on X, Twitter is just, and maybe I'm trying to do it here.

Tim Winders:

Maybe that's what I'm hopeful that we're having some conversations that

Tim Winders:

people just don't have in other places.

Tim Winders:

And maybe that'll help because I'm not excited about as we head into

Tim Winders:

the rest of this year, truthfully.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

No, I'm glad you, I think people are having these conversations, but they're

Doug Bursch:

not the dominant The conversation at the Thanksgiving table, the

Doug Bursch:

extremists speak, and the rest are trying to keep the family together.

Doug Bursch:

And I think we gotta remember that.

Doug Bursch:

That's why we do need to have conversations like this.

Doug Bursch:

You can be like, what was this about?

Doug Bursch:

what were we really talking about?

Doug Bursch:

Is this about selling a book or my platform?

Doug Bursch:

Or your platform?

Doug Bursch:

I hope not.

Doug Bursch:

obviously if someone bought a book, I get $3 or something, but here's the thing.

Doug Bursch:

By doing this, there's other people who feel less alone.

Doug Bursch:

We're less trying to change people's minds as there's other people like us.

Doug Bursch:

We're not alone in this.

Doug Bursch:

And they're like, oh, good.

Doug Bursch:

I'm not alone.

Doug Bursch:

And that's the danger.

Doug Bursch:

The danger is we begin to think that these extremists are extreme expressions.

Doug Bursch:

Is the expression.

Doug Bursch:

And that's to me, even people who came out of extreme churches and then they think

Doug Bursch:

that's the church, and they leave the church, they're like, that's the church.

Doug Bursch:

I don't like the church anymore.

Doug Bursch:

okay, that was your experience with church, but now you're buying

Doug Bursch:

into the same deceptive logic.

Doug Bursch:

When you went to that church, your church was like, we're the church and we do it

Doug Bursch:

right, and everybody else does it wrong.

Doug Bursch:

And now you've left it and you're still letting them set the agenda for

Doug Bursch:

your life saying they're the church.

Doug Bursch:

So I don't go to church.

Doug Bursch:

There's other expressions.

Doug Bursch:

There's, by the way, if you went to a white church, just go

Doug Bursch:

to a non-white church, you'll find a different expression.

Doug Bursch:

Go to a poorer church.

Doug Bursch:

If you went to a wealthy church, go to a smaller church.

Doug Bursch:

If you went to a bigger church, go to a, there's, go to a high church,

Doug Bursch:

Catholic, Lutheran, whatever.

Doug Bursch:

or if you were in that environment.

Doug Bursch:

go to where it's just uncomfortable people falling on the floor.

Doug Bursch:

It's just, there's a larger expression.

Doug Bursch:

So what you're doing here, and I know you work in this intersection, right?

Doug Bursch:

Even with these podcasts and the business stuff, the church stuff, am I too churchy?

Doug Bursch:

Am I too business too?

Doug Bursch:

That's where we're all living in this incredible, in-between place,

Doug Bursch:

and we need to encourage each other.

Doug Bursch:

I'm so glad what you're doing, it is needed.

Doug Bursch:

We need people in your space that you don't know how to define.

Doug Bursch:

I know you define yourself as a coach, but you're more than that.

Doug Bursch:

And it probably gets frustrating.

Doug Bursch:

what am I even doing and how do I define it to other things?

Doug Bursch:

You don't have to.

Doug Bursch:

God defends your work.

Doug Bursch:

God defends your worth.

Doug Bursch:

You just do what he put on your heart and let him connect those things.

Doug Bursch:

So I'm doing that.

Doug Bursch:

You're doing that.

Doug Bursch:

People listening are doing that, and that's where, that's how

Doug Bursch:

we're gonna solve the problem.

Doug Bursch:

Be bold.

Doug Bursch:

Do what God's put on your heart.

Doug Bursch:

It doesn't matter if it fits in anywhere else, and by all means, stop

Doug Bursch:

being a jerk while you're doing it.

Doug Bursch:

Be kind.

Doug Bursch:

Be loving, be reconciling Christ-like maybe even that's my heart.

Doug Bursch:

And we can unite on Twitter, our formerly Twitter now x or threads

Doug Bursch:

or whatever we're going to next.

Doug Bursch:

We can unite based on these things.

Tim Winders:

That's good, Doug.

Tim Winders:

That's a good, that's a good capper here.

Tim Winders:

Where can people find you get, get your book posting piece?

Tim Winders:

Like I said, I, I've enjoyed probably two thirds through it.

Tim Winders:

I wanna circle back 'cause anytime someone says they're a reluctant

Tim Winders:

pastor in the title of your other book, I'd love to kinda read that and all.

Tim Winders:

But where can people find you?

Tim Winders:

And then I've got one more question before we wrap.

Doug Bursch:

Sure.

Doug Bursch:

a couple things.

Doug Bursch:

One, if you just pray, if you're anointed, you'll find me, you'll

Doug Bursch:

just follow the Glory Cloud.

Doug Bursch:

Now, this is what you can do, one, fairly

Doug Bursch:

spiritual.org is my website.

Doug Bursch:

Are you?

Tim Winders:

we need some details.

Tim Winders:

We

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

For the non, yeah, for those of you who aren't spiritual enough.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah.

Doug Bursch:

Fairly spiritual.org or.com.

Doug Bursch:

Yeah, you can go to Doug Burch.

Doug Bursch:

if you search my name, you'll find me.

Doug Bursch:

And I do interact on those platforms.

Doug Bursch:

I also have a bunch of books that I haven't sold because I'm

Doug Bursch:

not a great, successful author.

Doug Bursch:

So if you have a church group or study group, and you contact me, I'm

Doug Bursch:

gonna find a way to send you a box of books if you can pay for the shipping.

Doug Bursch:

I'm telling you right now, I just wanna get those out there.

Doug Bursch:

I've given up on being the world famous author.

Doug Bursch:

instead I'd like to just get the message out there.

Doug Bursch:

So contact me if you're like, I'm interested in this and

Doug Bursch:

I'll be glad to serve you.

Tim Winders:

Very good.

Tim Winders:

hey Doug, we are seek, go create those three words.

Tim Winders:

I'll let you choose one is my final question.

Tim Winders:

Seek, go or create.

Tim Winders:

Which one do you like right now and

Doug Bursch:

Hmm.

Doug Bursch:

I think create is the best way to truly bring something

Doug Bursch:

life-giving into this world.

Doug Bursch:

we become a, an assessment culture where fewer people are creating

Doug Bursch:

and we're just assessing the creating or we're aggregating the

Doug Bursch:

creating or retweeting the creating.

Doug Bursch:

So to create anything, a poem, especially art, a song, a book,

Doug Bursch:

doesn't have to be Christian.

Doug Bursch:

Just there's more creating needed.

Doug Bursch:

Right now I'm trying to write a comedic novel fiction.

Doug Bursch:

I don't know if it'll ever be published, but I just want to do that and I think

Doug Bursch:

God's given me permission to do that.

Doug Bursch:

This is not, there'll be spiritual elements in it, but the reality

Doug Bursch:

is I love the creative process.

Doug Bursch:

I, I think we can find so many things over just something new and real.

Doug Bursch:

And so I would encourage your audience, especially if someone's like, well,

Doug Bursch:

I have a book that I've thought I might do, or I might take up this.

Doug Bursch:

Just do it.

Doug Bursch:

Just start creating, it should have value in the doing, not whether it's a success.

Doug Bursch:

Just everything I do, I try to have value in the doing.

Doug Bursch:

I'm glad I wrote books, regardless of how many you are sold when you create

Doug Bursch:

something, I tend to, I never regret that.

Doug Bursch:

I do regret the things.

Doug Bursch:

I didn't create the things that I just, I let other people take

Doug Bursch:

my time and my energy instead of doing what was on my heart.

Doug Bursch:

So I would encourage people.

Doug Bursch:

You have permission to create,

Tim Winders:

I like that, Doug, thank you.

Tim Winders:

I know I am at my happiest when I'm in some kind of creating mode, and

Tim Winders:

so I definitely agree with that.

Tim Winders:

Again, Doug, thanks for joining us.

Tim Winders:

Here we are Seek Go Create release new episodes every Monday.

Tim Winders:

Your support means the world to us.

Tim Winders:

Now you actually have the ability to tip us.

Tim Winders:

You could buy me a coffee or offer financial support

Tim Winders:

to our show@seekgocreate.com slash support contribution.

Tim Winders:

Start at just a buck.

Tim Winders:

If you wanna do that, and if you leave a comment, your comment could

Tim Winders:

be featured on a future episode visit seek, go create.com/support.

Tim Winders:

Thanks for.

Tim Winders:

Joining us here.

Tim Winders:

Until next time, continue being all that you were created to be.

About the Podcast

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Seek Go Create
Redefining Success in Leadership, Business & Ministry

About your host

Profile picture for Tim Winders

Tim Winders

Tim Winders is a faith driven executive coach and author with over 40 years of experience in leadership, business, and ministry. Through his personal journey of redefining success, he has gained valuable insights on how to align beliefs with work and lead with purpose. He is committed to helping others do the same, running a coaching business that helps leaders, leadership teams, business owners, and entrepreneurs to align their beliefs with their work and redefine success.

In addition to his coaching business, Tim is also the host of the SeekGoCreate podcast and author of the book Coach: A Story of Success Redefined, which provides guidance for those looking to redefine success and align their beliefs with their work. With his extensive background, unique perspective and strengths in strategic thinking, relationship building, and problem-solving, Tim is well-suited to help clients navigate through difficult times and achieve their goals.