From Shame to Strength: Burke Atkerson's Fire Nights Movement

Burke Atkerson: 00:00:00

Nothing actually worked until I began to learn

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how to have healthy friendships.

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A, I had to relearn how to relate with my wife, right?

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That's a given.

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But also, I really needed to relearn how to relate with men.

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And that's been core to my healing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:00:18

Um, uh,

Tim Winders: 00:00:29

What if there was a movement that could transform

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the epidemic of loneliness into a brotherhood of resilience and support?

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Today on Seek, Go Create the Leadership Journey, we had the

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pleasure of speaking with Berk.

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Atkerson, an entrepreneur, author, and the driving force behind Fire

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Knights, a men's movement that's changing lives across the nation.

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Burke uses his expertise to create impact driven real estate investments while

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dedicating himself to building communities where men can share their struggles

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and triumphs openly and authentically.

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Join us as Burke shares insights from his book, Fire Knights, a transformative

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guide that is part memoir, part manifesto, and a call to action for men

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everywhere to embrace vulnerability, seek meaningful connections, and

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rediscover their strength through unity.

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Let's dive into how Burke's personal journey and professional expertise

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converge to foster a revolution in masculinity and mental health.

Tim Winders: 00:01:29

Burke, welcome to Seek, Go Create.

Burke Atkerson: 00:01:32

Wow.

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Tim, thank you so much.

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I can't believe how eloquently you described my entire life in one minute.

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I'm so impressed.

Burke Atkerson: 00:01:41

That was phenomenal.

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I'm gonna, I'm gonna take notes.

Tim Winders: 00:01:45

good.

Tim Winders: 00:01:45

I gathered some of your info.

Tim Winders: 00:01:47

I got AI to help me a little bit, just so you know.

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And so we're, we are, let me just go ahead and let the audience know.

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These are two real guys.

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We actually, so we're, this is not AI generated stuff here.

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anyway, yeah, enjoyed reading the book and we're going to have a great

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conversation here, Bert, but, similar.

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we've just met.

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I met from a connection from a good friend of mine, Caleb said,

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you got to talk to this guy.

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It'd be a great fit for you.

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So let's just pretend you weren't on a plane.

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We're out and about, we bump into each other and I say, Burke, what do you do?

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What kind of answer do you have?

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And you can't just repeat what I just said.

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You got to come up with something fresh here.

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Okay.

Burke Atkerson: 00:02:24

Yeah.

Burke Atkerson: 00:02:24

Let me ask GPT real quick.

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What do I do?

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I love that.

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I love that question.

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but I hate the answers 'cause it's too complicated.

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Usually depends who I'm talking to, right?

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Where did I meet them?

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Did I meet them in a space with real estate investors?

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Did I meet them in a space with ministers?

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Did I meet them in a space at, at the park, with my wife and kids?

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it's really quite complex because I'm spinning 10 plates at the same time.

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And, somebody asked me the other day, if I was a hundred percent an author,

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cause I've written two books, if that's all I did, would I, would I be content?

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That'd be, and I'm like, no.

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I've got to be doing five other things at the same time.

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And, I want to keep writing cause it's a, it's an escape.

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it's a creative outlet and it's a place where I could actually use my voice.

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But what I do, I help real estate investors.

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I am a real estate investor and, I've got a construction company.

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I've got a turnkey fix and flip company, and I've got a multifamily investment,

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partnership as well, that we're building up stuff all over the U S.

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however.

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I'm also a soul care coach.

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Some would, I called my work spiritual direction for a long time, for a few

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years, but I realized that I lean a lot more on the somatic side of things

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when I'm working with men, checking in with their bodies a lot more than

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just their minds, or just their hearts.

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And cause I think it's a beautiful triad.

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I'm also checking in with the relationships cause

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that's key to everything.

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And that probably in some, in the book.

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Talk about those four spheres of our lives or of our souls.

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And, yeah, so spiritual or, sorry.

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Soul care coaching is what I do as a hobby.

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It's not a big income stream.

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It's a chance to bring other men to connection and move them

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towards mental health and towards connecting deeply with the father.

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I think.

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The biggest gap is the gap between our heads and our hearts.

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And so I want to help man close that gap.

Tim Winders: 00:04:30

It's going to be an odd question, follow up, but

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this is fresh on my mind.

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This morning I did an odd mashup of reading the end of the book of

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Revelation and then I jumped back to mid Matthew and read through the Olivet

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Discourse and I'm doing a deeper dive into end times and eschatology than any

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person should right now.

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Don't please, I don't

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want, I don't want to get started on that.

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I do not want to go down that

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path, but.

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I had this

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let's call in my buddy Kurt Cameron for this conversation

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oh, that'd be awesome.

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I've got a lot of thoughts on that, especially from actually reading

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the Bible, not listening to what other people say about is in the

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Bible, this is a thought I had.

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So I'm going to ask it of you, cause I know you've got

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a deep spiritual background.

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You got a deep ministry background.

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And you mentioned there's audiences that if you are asked that question, what

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you do, you might give it differently.

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But I'm sitting here reading in Matthew and I'm reading in John and I'm thinking

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to myself, what if I was having a conversation with one of them or with

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Jesus and they asked me what I do.

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Because we are going to be judged by our works and it, I don't think it's

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the same works that we define works as, but we don't have to get into that.

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But if we're in a deep spiritual mindset and someone says, what do you do?

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if we were able to sit here and have conversations with Jesus

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or Peter or Matthew, and they said, Burke, what do you do?

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What would your response be to them?

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That's a tough question.

Tim Winders: 00:06:03

Sorry, man.

Tim Winders: 00:06:03

We're diving into deep into the pool right out of the gate here.

Burke Atkerson: 00:06:08

you know Just checking in with my body as you asked that

Burke Atkerson: 00:06:12

question, I, I sense shame flaring up in me, Matthew, when he said, get

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away from me, I'm a sinner, and what I do, I feel like is not enough because

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there, there is a lot of need, right?

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But I'm also torn in a lot of directions and I've got to take care of my family.

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And so that is part of what I do, just whatever it takes.

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But there's something in me that flares up and it's an old message

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that says I'm not good enough.

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Not I'm not enough.

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It's that I'm not good enough.

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It's almost a moral paradigm.

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and what I mean by that is I'm not, accomplishing enough.

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And for years, for decades, I tried to win the Father's approval

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by the ministry that I did.

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And it's been, almost seven years now of realizing

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and just sitting in the fact that he loves me because I'm Burke, not because

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of what I do, not because of what I've accomplished, not because of the lives

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I've changed or the impact I've made.

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so if I were in that conversation with them, that part of me is

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exposed, Okay, let's talk about ministry because I am doing ministry.

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I'm in full time ministry, even though I haven't had a title for seven years.

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that was stripped away from me when I effed things up, when we're on

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the mission field and in a way we're kicked off the field and in a way we're

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invited into a restoration process.

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And I write about that in the book, but.

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Yeah.

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To this day, I'm leading men to the father.

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I'm leading men to each other, which those are the two commandments, right?

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I'm leading men to their hearts above all else guard that.

Tim Winders: 00:07:58

Yeah.

Burke Atkerson: 00:07:59

So that's my mission.

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And I do that in the real estate space.

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I do that with real estate investors.

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I have a real estate client here that I helped him buy his first house.

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And.

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Then he came to the faith over time.

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We started smoking cigars together once every two or three months.

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And then he bought a real estate investment property and now he's in

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the investing space and I'm helping him in all these spheres, but we're

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still getting together over cigars and just saying, man, how's your heart?

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How are you connecting with the father?

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I love the guy.

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I have a few friendships like that, but that's just an example of, ministry

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isn't this thing that happens on Sunday mornings, as you know, Tim,

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but ministry also isn't this thing that only happens if you have a

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title or a role that you're playing.

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And I think that's probably how I'd have the conversation with these guys.

Tim Winders: 00:08:50

We may back up in just a minute here and I

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want to learn more about a little bit, a little bit of growing up

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and a little bit how you, how and why you got into ministry.

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But the question that I think a lot of men struggle with.

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I think a lot of people in our modern culture.

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So I'll mention this and I think I want to preface this with, I realize

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no one really knows the answer.

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This is part of a journey that we go on.

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And that is how do we, how do we operate in the kingdom of God?

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And Babylon at the same time and you brought it up You said you're you know

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You got to provide for the family and there's scriptures for that I think

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some men were beating over the head with that scripture of you're worse

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than an infidel and blah blah blah I think that's taken out of context by

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the way, but let's we don't have to get into that here How have you reconciled?

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And I know you've been around a lot of other men sitting around fires and stuff

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like that, but how have you reconciled and how do you see other people reconcile,

Tim Winders: 00:09:51

uh, being in the world, but not of the world being citizens of the kingdom of

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God, passport stamped, everything we're good, but yet we're still in, in this

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earth where we, we got some bills to pay.

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We want our kids and our, Wives and all to be taken care of.

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And anyway, how's that

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working out for you and what can you share?

Burke Atkerson: 00:10:15

Man, that's a broad question.

Burke Atkerson: 00:10:16

it almost seems like the way I was raised in West Texas, which

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is the Bible Belt, there were it's like a hierarchy of importance.

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There's like the laymen who, they own businesses or they're blue collar workers

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and they provide money for the actual ministers, like they're down here.

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This is a way I understood it as a kid, whether or not it was communicated.

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and maybe that's the way, valued it, but they didn't talk

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about it explicitly that way.

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then there's the next tier of actual, people who are helping at the church,

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the elders, the guy shaking hands at the front door, welcoming people into the

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church and, volunteers they're cooking for the potlucks or whatever, they're

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going to Wednesday nights and the Bible studies and it's that's the next year.

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Those are people who are actively involved.

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They're important.

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Oh, even more important than them is people are in staff, youth pastor.

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It's like this whole pyramid.

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And as a kid, I saw this hierarchy subconsciously.

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And I There was a missionary, that was introduced to the church and the way the

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pastor talked about this missionary made me realize he was superior to the pastor.

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like he is of most importance way up there.

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Like this guy is a value.

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and the way, the same way they talked about the apostles, right?

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Like those guys, geez, like we'll never compare to that.

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We're not that important.

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we're not that valuable.

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And I grew up with that little pyramid, and maybe it goes up to Jesus at the top.

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I don't know, but my life has been unraveling that pyramid because when I was

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seven years old, and we could, this may be a different conversation, but when I was

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seven years old, I know the voice of God.

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I'm familiar.

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And I respond to it, when I realize I'm hearing it, I'm like, Oh, that's what

Burke Atkerson: 00:12:17

I want to do, and it's always through filtered through the scripture, right?

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So for me, I was coloring a coloring sheet.

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In second grade, and the Lord spoke to me at the bottom of it, there was a verse,

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March 16, 15, go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature

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or whatever it was King James version.

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And I know that he was speaking to me.

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It resonated deep in me.

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I was 7 years old in this Hans class, second grade, and I

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went home and I said, mom, dad.

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I'm going to be a missionary when I grow up.

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And my parents didn't understand me.

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I found out years later, they were praying for how to raise me the night before.

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So God was answering their prayer.

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There's so many things happening in this story, but at the same

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time, subconsciously, I remembered.

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That the missionary is important

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from, church experiences.

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And my ego immediately began to cling onto it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:13:22

So I feel like your question is too, is multifaceted because you've

Burke Atkerson: 00:13:26

got this spiritual secular divide.

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tension or a gap.

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And then you also have this inner world issue that ministers struggle with.

Burke Atkerson: 00:13:40

I'm important because I'm in ministry.

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God loves me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:13:44

Or, sometimes they'll even say that somebody who teaches the word is held

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to a higher standard, like Moses, and they'll give those verses and you can

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tell they're setting themselves up on a higher level of importance, which is okay.

Burke Atkerson: 00:13:59

it's biblically backed, but what I'm talking about is the ego,

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because there's two things that are, I feel like the battleground

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:05

happens in the space of our heart.

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:10

Sorry, the battleground happens in the space of our heart

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:12

and the space of our ego.

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And so we look at behaviors all the time.

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Behaviors are top of the iceberg, above the surface level.

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:21

everything under the water, the rest of the iceberg, that's where you

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:25

talk about ego, that's where you talk about dysfunction, that's where

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you talk about struggles, that's where All the vulnerability lies.

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:31

but ego's in there.

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It's such a big battleground.

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And so as a child, my ego clung onto it.

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And what I found is it was the only place in my life where I found

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value, respect, and affirmation.

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From my family, from extended family, from people at church, from people at my

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:51

little Christian school, I went to, they admired me because someday, say on hero

Burke Atkerson: 00:14:55

day or career day, I would dress up as a missionary, and brooch co is my favorite

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book, little missionary book, right?

Burke Atkerson: 00:15:02

these are my heroes, but at the same time, it was forming my identity around.

Burke Atkerson: 00:15:07

Oh, then I'll have purpose.

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Then I'll have meaning and significance.

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And so the last seven years we've been, we got.

Burke Atkerson: 00:15:15

thrown off the mission field in a way it was the most painful thing for my

Burke Atkerson: 00:15:19

ego I ever could have experienced.

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And yet, it's the most healthy thing for my marriage.

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It's been the biggest blessing for me, for my inner world, for

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my relationship with the Father.

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Just to know at a heart level, oh, my Father's not disappointed in me.

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He's proud of me.

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And I'm not even doing anything, quote unquote.

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I'm not even, baptizing X amount of people or whatever.

Burke Atkerson: 00:15:47

and so a lot of my healing journey has been just unraveling that pyramid and that

Burke Atkerson: 00:15:53

divide and realizing, I'm sure you've read Practicing the Presence, Brother Lawrence.

Tim Winders: 00:15:58

Yeah, no.

Burke Atkerson: 00:15:59

it's, it was written 500 years ago by a monk, and he's

Burke Atkerson: 00:16:05

washing dishes in a monastery, and he's recognizing that God's present with him,

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and what he's doing is important, simply because he's doing it with the Father.

Burke Atkerson: 00:16:19

How holy and sanctified is that?

Tim Winders: 00:16:21

and that's what we miss.

Tim Winders: 00:16:23

And I, you're, we're tracking real well here.

Tim Winders: 00:16:27

I grew up pursuing business because I was going to make me some money.

Tim Winders: 00:16:31

I popped in and out of church every once in a while.

Tim Winders: 00:16:34

And so I was business guy.

Tim Winders: 00:16:36

I actually got saved in a business setting.

Tim Winders: 00:16:37

So my paradigm is a little different.

Tim Winders: 00:16:40

And as you were talking, I'm sitting here going, your seven

Tim Winders: 00:16:44

year old prophecy has come true.

Tim Winders: 00:16:46

You are a missionary.

Tim Winders: 00:16:49

It just doesn't look like that paradigm you thought the missionary

Tim Winders: 00:16:53

was supposed to look like.

Tim Winders: 00:16:55

we talk about redefining success here, and I think that's a weird

Tim Winders: 00:16:58

thing, but what we really look at do is busting tradition and paradigms.

Tim Winders: 00:17:03

And the paradigm that you had was accurate, but in the little world we

Tim Winders: 00:17:09

lived in, you lived in West Texas, the only thing you knew was that

Tim Winders: 00:17:12

one missionary that came in that one Sunday and everybody bowed down

Tim Winders: 00:17:16

to him and all that kind of stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:17:18

So you are a missionary, that's been very prophetic and

Tim Winders: 00:17:20

you're walking in that calling.

Tim Winders: 00:17:23

And so that's cool, it's just, not what we originally thought.

Tim Winders: 00:17:28

Growing up in

Tim Winders: 00:17:28

West Texas, sorry, I need a question or two from that.

Tim Winders: 00:17:31

So here's my question.

Tim Winders: 00:17:33

And it's going to relate to some things we're going to

Tim Winders: 00:17:35

talk about in a little while.

Tim Winders: 00:17:36

Do you think that you grew up easy or hard?

Burke Atkerson: 00:17:42

that's a really good question.

Burke Atkerson: 00:17:43

I've never thought about it.

Tim Winders: 00:17:45

While you're thinking, here's my theory.

Tim Winders: 00:17:47

Here's my theory on it while you're thinking.

Tim Winders: 00:17:49

I

Tim Winders: 00:17:50

have this theory that some of us that grow up easy will have a

Tim Winders: 00:17:54

hard at some point in our life.

Tim Winders: 00:17:58

making a theology out of that.

Tim Winders: 00:17:59

I'm not going to build a doctrine around it, but some people that have

Tim Winders: 00:18:03

had it hard early on, they can move into easier, even though they've

Tim Winders: 00:18:08

got to deal with some of that hard.

Tim Winders: 00:18:11

And so, I don't, just, and don't overthink, but do you, would you say you

Tim Winders: 00:18:16

were easy or hard growing up?

Tim Winders: 00:18:19

In West Texas.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:21

my answer is going to set myself up for failure then.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:24

or a lot of suffering.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:26

I had

Tim Winders: 00:18:26

you go.

Tim Winders: 00:18:27

It's a trick question.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:29

I had an easy childhood.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:30

my, my parents remained married.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:33

They're still married to this day.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:34

which is increasingly uncommon.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:37

And in hindsight, I don't know how they stayed together, and I think any marriage

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:43

that does stay together is a miracle.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:45

honestly, the traumas and the wounds I experienced as a kid were minor.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:52

And there were little t traumas that accumulated over time.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:55

And my parents loved me deeply.

Burke Atkerson: 00:18:58

And they were first generation believers.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:00

they had us in the church.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:01

So if anything, one of my wounds is being overchurched as a kid, and.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:08

But what a first world problem, what a incredible set of issues to have.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:14

so I'm really grateful for my story, for my childhood experience.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:20

And, yeah, there were a few low hard times, but even deaths, there

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:24

hadn't been a lot throughout my life.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:26

everybody I know knows somebody who's committed suicide.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:30

And actually I do know a handful of people, but none of them were dear.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:34

None of them were close.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:36

friends, I felt loss over it, if that makes sense.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:40

And I don't mean for that sound cold, or too detached.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:44

but yeah, pretty freaking easy actually now in hindsight, and that

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:48

stirs up gratitude in me on the other hand, there's still suffering.

Burke Atkerson: 00:19:53

And I used to fear that I used to see time after time, big pastors who,

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:03

got brain cancer or their wife got cancer and died a severe mercy kind

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:08

of stories, if you read that book.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:11

And it seemed like all these big hitters in the world were going through

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:17

tremendous suffering at some point.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:18

And I always viewed that as, wow, they were targets for the enemy.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:22

maybe I over spiritualized it a little bit.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:24

What I've realized over time is that it rains on the just and the unjust alike.

Tim Winders: 00:20:29

That's

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:29

That everybody experiences blessings that we could be grateful for.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:34

Everybody experiences sufferings and the Father's with us.

Tim Winders: 00:20:39

Yeah.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:40

the pain, the father's with us in the suffering.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:44

And so I have experienced some hardships in my marriage, just

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:47

hanging on by a thread for years.

Burke Atkerson: 00:20:50

And, what I've found is the nearness of the father.

Tim Winders: 00:20:55

That's so good.

Tim Winders: 00:20:56

You brought up something that triggered something in me for the longest.

Tim Winders: 00:20:59

All during COVID, during my kind of quiet, I guess we'll call it meditation time.

Tim Winders: 00:21:05

I would listen to the Audie audio of the Sermon on the Mount.

Tim Winders: 00:21:09

It's right at 15 minutes, by the way, so it's really cool.

Tim Winders: 00:21:12

And right at the end there, there's teaching that Jesus does.

Tim Winders: 00:21:16

He says, you could, this is Tim's paraphrase, you can have your house

Tim Winders: 00:21:21

built on a rock or you could not have your house built on the rock.

Tim Winders: 00:21:25

And of course the rock being the foundation of faith and things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:21:30

What's interesting is the rains, the storms and the winds come to both houses.

Tim Winders: 00:21:37

It's just a matter of which foundation is it built upon.

Tim Winders: 00:21:41

And the reason I'm going to go back to some ego and some

Tim Winders: 00:21:45

things you brought up earlier.

Tim Winders: 00:21:46

I realized that I was fairly ego driven and.

Tim Winders: 00:21:51

When I hear people say They grew up or they were had a not good enough mindset.

Tim Winders: 00:21:57

Not this Hope this comes across.

Tim Winders: 00:22:00

Okay.

Tim Winders: 00:22:01

I had the opposite problem.

Tim Winders: 00:22:03

Maybe we'll call it delusional.

Tim Winders: 00:22:05

I thought I was more than good enough and I think there's

Tim Winders: 00:22:09

issues with both, by the way.

Tim Winders: 00:22:10

Okay.

Tim Winders: 00:22:11

There's

Tim Winders: 00:22:12

obviously problems there and all that kind of stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:22:14

I think, but I believe people that had it easy.

Tim Winders: 00:22:17

I believe I had an easy growing up.

Tim Winders: 00:22:19

My parents were together, good home.

Tim Winders: 00:22:22

we did the holiday church thing, not necessarily the every,

Tim Winders: 00:22:26

and all that kind of stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:22:29

But later in life, Things got hard and when I picked up fire knights and started

Tim Winders: 00:22:34

reading it Um for my friend recommended and I was reading the beginning of it

Tim Winders: 00:22:38

And I was kind of i'm sure you're this way when you read books You're kind of

Tim Winders: 00:22:41

reading it going is this something i'm going to keep reading whatever like

Tim Winders: 00:22:44

that, we didn't know each other But then I got to your story And I went, okay,

Tim Winders: 00:22:49

this is a guy I got to talk to more.

Tim Winders: 00:22:51

So there was a period of time in your life where it got hard either

Tim Winders: 00:22:56

by your own doing or whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:22:59

To me, I don't want to say it's irrelevant.

Tim Winders: 00:23:02

Some people will try to make things like, Oh, it was his fault or whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:23:07

I don't buy that.

Tim Winders: 00:23:08

I think it's just part of the

Tim Winders: 00:23:08

journey.

Tim Winders: 00:23:10

So, so give us a little bit of.

Tim Winders: 00:23:14

Kind of how we got into that stage and this will set us up to move into Kind

Tim Winders: 00:23:19

of the second half of our interview here, which is going to be around fire

Tim Winders: 00:23:22

nights and all that But this is our bridge that we're going over here.

Tim Winders: 00:23:26

And it's probably Got a lot to it, but let's maybe hit I don't want to say the

Tim Winders: 00:23:32

high points, that sounds superficial.

Burke Atkerson: 00:23:35

Let's hit the low points.

Tim Winders: 00:23:36

Let's let the, let's let the Holy Spirit just guide you.

Tim Winders: 00:23:38

How about that, Bert?

Tim Winders: 00:23:39

Just, what do we need to do as we transition into this deeper,

Tim Winders: 00:23:42

this conversation of how it, how this impacts men in general?

Burke Atkerson: 00:23:47

Yeah.

Burke Atkerson: 00:23:48

if any kids are listening, you may want to press pause.

Burke Atkerson: 00:23:55

I struggled with, I saw a stat recently that 98 percent of men

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:00

have looked at pornography in the last six months at some point.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:04

so that doesn't mean addiction.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:05

That doesn't mean, compulsively, whatever it could have been, they

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:08

came across, I don't know, but it's a staggering statistic and

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:12

that's in the book, I believe.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:14

so it, it might be a year old now,

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:18

but.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:19

And I think it's 65 percent of women.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:21

So this is a very human issue.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:24

This isn't just men and it's not just me, which is what I thought as a kid.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:29

I think I first found porn on the internet when I was nine years

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:33

old, cause I was just old enough.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:35

Google had just coming out, had just, come out or whatever it was like Google.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:41

And, And I had enough unsupervised access to a computer and my parents,

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:45

it wasn't even on their radar that something like that could exist.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:48

I don't think, it wasn't an error of theirs necessarily.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:52

It's just life, it's at rain.

Burke Atkerson: 00:24:54

And, I, it ended up being my escapism of choice, my weapon of

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:02

choice for decades and, When I was 21, everyone found out about it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:09

It was my first big D day discovery day where shit hit the fan and I

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:15

didn't have anything to hide anymore.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:18

that was 2008, 2007, actually it was 2007 and

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:25

I tried everything since then.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:27

So up till then, I.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:30

I did what I could to hold the beach ball under the water, but now everything's out.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:36

And I love, it was my first taste of grace, actually, when everybody

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:42

found out and I had a two or three guys that didn't abandon me in it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:46

And they said, Hey, that's okay.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:48

And they stayed friends.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:49

One guy actually ended up discipling me from that.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:53

conversation where everything just came out and it was freedom and life

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:58

for me not to be hiding anymore.

Burke Atkerson: 00:25:59

And since then i've not lived in any kind of hiddenness.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:02

I love Staying in the light if anything happens where I feel like I crossed

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:07

a line it's not 24 hours later till i'm in conversation with somebody and

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:12

that could be any kind of line, right?

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:15

Not just acting out with pornography but from 21 until My big crash seven

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:24

years ago, so it was over a decade.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:26

I think it was 12 years I tried everything.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:31

I listened to every sermon on the topic I could find.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:34

I listened to every podcast.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:35

I read every book I could on, on the topic of, men's issues, pornography,

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:41

addiction, name it, went to workshops, went to retreats, and none of it actually,

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:50

changed anything at a heart level for me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:52

I was still stuck.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:54

I was still finding myself making compulsive decisions, around pornography.

Burke Atkerson: 00:26:59

And so all of it cumulated to where when we were on the field, we'd

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:04

been missionaries for almost seven years in South America, in Uruguay.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:11

And we were burned out, and my marriage was dysfunctional, and my ministry team

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:17

was dysfunctional, and I was traveling.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:22

I was jet lagged.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:24

It was like this perfect storm of all these events collided.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:28

And I met this girl that responded to every word I said.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:34

And she's beautiful, British accent.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:37

and she treated me like she hung on to every word and it was a drug for me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:43

I couldn't walk away from her.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:45

I crossed lines with her that evening.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:47

and it nearly cost my marriage, but

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:55

it all stems from that same loneliness issue.

Burke Atkerson: 00:27:59

and escapism issue that the pornography addiction was born in.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:03

So it was the same compulsive reaction to So for example, when I look at When I

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:10

had looked at pornography, I would look for eye contact with women for years.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:18

or for hours.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:20

I would literally search for a woman gazing into a guy's eyes.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:25

Because I wanted to feel seen, I didn't have that language around it yet.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:30

but there was something in me that needed to feel desired, that

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:34

needed to feel loved, that wasn't being met in these other places, A,

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:38

because my heart couldn't hold love.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:42

And that's where addiction comes from.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:43

But, B because I, all these dysfunctional relationships in my life,

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:49

chicken or the egg.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:51

all this, so the same thing I found in this woman who is paying

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:54

attention to me, look in me in the eyes, Hanging on to every word.

Burke Atkerson: 00:28:58

I hadn't gotten that kind of treatment from my wife because of our own

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:00

dysfunction, which, my dysfunction was adding to her issues and her

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:04

dysfunction was adding to mine.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:05

It was just that whole thing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:08

What I say is our wounds bleed in to each other's wounds in marriage.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:12

And, that was very much happening.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:15

All of this cumulated to getting pulled off the field, actually, I

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:21

called the navigators and confessed.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:23

I said, Hey, I crossed some lines.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:25

I talked to my wife.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:26

Also, I said, Hey, this is what I did.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:28

Detailed description, way too many details.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:32

This is what happened and broke her heart.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:35

And we had a week to move from Uruguay, and to move to Colorado.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:40

I don't remember the original question, but I think, this whole issue of

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:46

loneliness and pornography and addiction couldn't be met with all the tools.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:54

It couldn't be fixed with all the tools I found.

Burke Atkerson: 00:29:57

I memorized all the verses I could around it over and over.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:00

Shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:01

I'd cover myself in shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:02

Friends would cover me in shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:03

I had accountability groups for decades.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:06

nothing actually worked until I began to learn how to have healthy friendships.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:12

A, I had to relearn how to relate with my wife, right?

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:15

That's a given.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:16

But also, I really needed to relearn how to relate with men.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:21

And that's been core to my healing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:25

So these fire nights has been the context for that to happen where I'll just light

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:30

a fire and invite some guys into it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:32

I'll open up my heart and it's safe there.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:35

My heart was never safe with men before, or if it was, I didn't feel safe.

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:40

And now all of a sudden I have that capacity and it's it's been the most

Burke Atkerson: 00:30:43

healing thing in my life and the most healing thing from addiction.

Tim Winders: 00:30:47

So how does, all right, so the great lead into, cause I've been

Tim Winders: 00:30:51

waiting, I've been about to interrupt you a couple of times to go back to something

Tim Winders: 00:30:56

you brought up at the beginning, which is that you had felt as if you were not good

Tim Winders: 00:31:03

enough And I think it's difficult to have relationships with anyone spouse other

Tim Winders: 00:31:14

men fathers mothers Whatever if one thinks they're not good enough I also think it's

Tim Winders: 00:31:21

difficult to have a relationship with people if you think you're too good, too.

Tim Winders: 00:31:24

that's my story We won't go there But if you're not good enough And

Tim Winders: 00:31:30

you and I are attempting to have conversation and all of that.

Tim Winders: 00:31:36

How does that, I know you were probably trying to prove something

Tim Winders: 00:31:41

with this missionary thing that you were going through that process.

Tim Winders: 00:31:46

And, and I don't want to leave.

Tim Winders: 00:31:47

I want to ask a question about your wife in just a second.

Tim Winders: 00:31:50

Talk about how the not good enough, which has come up a number of times.

Tim Winders: 00:31:55

We just recently had an

Tim Winders: 00:31:56

interview with Alan Morris, extremely successful real estate developer

Tim Winders: 00:32:01

out of Miami at the age of 47.

Tim Winders: 00:32:04

He said, we were all living this dream, this thought that we're not good enough.

Tim Winders: 00:32:07

So talk about not good enough and how it feeds into the story.

Tim Winders: 00:32:11

You just told

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:13

Yeah, absolutely.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:14

It's core.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:16

the fuel behind any kind of addiction is shame, and so there's things that

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:23

will get you to that addiction, right?

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:24

But the fuel that keeps it spiraling is shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:27

it is the most Amazing tactic of the enemy.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:32

It's the most covert because a lot of times shame is wrapped up in scripture.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:39

Shame is disguised.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:40

It's really the sheep and it's the wolf and sheep's clothing of.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:47

All of the enemy's tactics.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:48

It's the most, what's that word?

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:50

It's covert.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:51

I don't know the other word to use.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:53

somebody would act out and then instantly they're feeling it in their body.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:56

They're feeling shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:32:57

They also have that dopamine drop, and it feels physically like shame,

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:02

or they stayed up late and they wake up the next day tired and

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:05

they're just covered in shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:06

Or they woke up and they have, they're doing this, the walk of shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:09

They literally call that the walk of shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:10

So it's a big part of it, but it's, I would say it's at the root of it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:17

So there's two parts of it, relationships and shame that have

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:20

to do with, porn addiction or sex addiction, because sex addiction is

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:26

categorically an intimacy disorder.

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:28

So we have to learn how to relate.

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:32

What shame ever since day one and this isn't a theological argument

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:38

I'm not talking about arguing about Genesis, but ever since day

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:41

one Adam and Eve ate the fruit

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:46

they were covered in shame and they did three things they hid they blamed

Burke Atkerson: 00:33:54

And they covered up so they put masks on And so they use fig leaves.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:00

We use masks.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:01

We use, I use humor.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:03

I use,

Tim Winders: 00:34:04

social media,

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:05

social media, expertise, competency.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:08

Competency has been a big mask of mine.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:10

Look at me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:11

I am important because I'm competent at something.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:14

these three things are what shame induces in us as humans across the board.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:20

So throughout my life, the hiding.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:23

involved in anything negative I did.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:25

I was raising a Bible belt, culture where, you can talk about the good

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:30

things about yourself even, and that's totally fine because pride isn't one

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:34

of the bad things in the Bible belt.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:36

but you can't talk about anything negative or weak.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:39

or addiction or struggles or that just doesn't exist for

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:43

the most part in the culture.

Burke Atkerson: 00:34:45

So I would hide.

Tim Winders: 00:34:45

isn't that because primarily religion, I'm going to, I'm

Tim Winders: 00:34:48

going to separate something out here.

Tim Winders: 00:34:50

Religions primary goal is shame and control, shame and control.

Tim Winders: 00:34:58

We don't see that on their billboards.

Tim Winders: 00:35:00

That's not what they, Put out in front of churches or anything somewhat.

Tim Winders: 00:35:04

I actually saw one earlier talking about sin and I went, that's not

Tim Winders: 00:35:08

what that means, but whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:35:10

Okay.

Tim Winders: 00:35:11

But so you are in an environment.

Tim Winders: 00:35:13

I would say this Bert that probably Had you not been in that church environment?

Tim Winders: 00:35:19

I don't want to say you would have been fine.

Tim Winders: 00:35:21

I think we also have to deal with that stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:35:23

But I think you had a double whammy because not only in that bible belt You

Tim Winders: 00:35:28

had it baked in but then you went out on the mission Oh And you were, we're going

Tim Winders: 00:35:35

to talk about fire in a little while.

Tim Winders: 00:35:37

You were just pouring gasoline on that fire.

Tim Winders: 00:35:40

Weren't you,

Burke Atkerson: 00:35:41

Absolutely.

Burke Atkerson: 00:35:42

Absolutely.

Burke Atkerson: 00:35:43

And it was amazing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:35:44

I felt like I'd prepared my whole life to be a missionary and I

Burke Atkerson: 00:35:47

got overseas and I sucked at it

Burke Atkerson: 00:35:53

and it's exact, it was like just covered in shame.

Burke Atkerson: 00:35:57

After a year and a half, I experienced a season of depression for a few months,

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:02

which I've never experienced in my life.

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:04

But what was happening is that the two year mark, we were going to come back

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:09

on furlough and do some fundraising.

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:12

And I was covered in shame, which led me to depression and isolation I didn't

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:18

have all these amazing, miraculous stories that I hoped to have to share

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:23

with our supporters to tell them I was important and worth their money.

Tim Winders: 00:36:28

hadn't raised the dead or anything like that.

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:30

I tried.

Burke Atkerson: 00:36:31

I

Tim Winders: 00:36:31

what else can you say about how your marriage was saved and

Tim Winders: 00:36:38

how you are still together after that?

Tim Winders: 00:36:43

I didn't even use the word transgression that just you screwed up, man.

Tim Winders: 00:36:46

You messed up.

Tim Winders: 00:36:47

Okay.

Tim Winders: 00:36:47

Can we say that you screwed

Tim Winders: 00:36:50

up?

Tim Winders: 00:36:50

All right.

Tim Winders: 00:36:50

So after that you messed up, you said you, you were Upfront

Tim Winders: 00:36:54

with your wife and y'all are

Tim Winders: 00:36:56

still together.

Tim Winders: 00:36:58

I'm struggling with processing that truthfully.

Tim Winders: 00:37:00

So what can you tell me about that?

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:04

I'm amazed with my wife.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:07

she had an out and I told her you have an out, this is it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:14

this is the most biblical out you could find.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:19

And she didn't take it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:21

And more than that,

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:25

I claim full responsibility.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:26

This is my doing, I got us here.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:30

Yeah, it was a perfect storm of events, but these are my decisions.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:33

I'll own that.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:35

She owned it too.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:38

And that saved our marriage.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:41

Because she said, I had a part to play with, in this.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:46

And I, what I don't mean is she didn't have enough sex with me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:50

That's not what I mean.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:52

And that's what we were taught.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:54

And that's what's taught from the pulpit a lot.

Burke Atkerson: 00:37:56

And even overseas, somebody said, we've been overseas for 40 years and

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:01

the secret to having a successful ministry is just have sex with

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:05

your husband as often as he wants.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:08

We literally heard those messages as if that fixes issues.

Tim Winders: 00:38:11

Did they have a scripture for that,

Tim Winders: 00:38:13

Was it, did they have a scripture for that?

Tim Winders: 00:38:15

I can't find it.

Tim Winders: 00:38:17

I've read through the Bible.

Tim Winders: 00:38:18

I cannot find that scripture.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:21

yeah, I've looked for it, but I fully, I had subscribed to

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:24

that side of things and we had counselors that kind of pushed us down that path,

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:28

but she claimed responsibility for her, baggage that she brought into the

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:33

marriage that had nothing to do with sex.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:36

But it did have to do with hearts and it had to do with the way we're relating.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:39

we came back and we met with Mike, Michael Cusick.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:44

he wrote surfing for God, phenomenal book on the topic of sex addiction.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:49

It's from a Christian lens.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:51

and.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:52

he's a phenomenally skilled counselor.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:54

So we met with him for two weeks for an intensive and at the end of

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:57

the two weeks, he gave us feedback.

Burke Atkerson: 00:38:59

He gave me, two hours of all my dysfunction and he drew it on a

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:03

whiteboard so I could actually see it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:05

And that gave me a roadmap for what to work on over the next several years.

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:09

he also did that for my wife.

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:11

And then he did it for our marriage and he, it was a whole hour session just

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:17

talking about our marriage and he drew it out for us, and explained, seven different

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:22

layers of dysfunction, not of a team, but of that, that our marriage had brought

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:28

or that our marriage contained and she owned all of it from the beginning of.

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:35

when I broke her heart and she didn't talk to me for a week to today, she still

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:41

claims responsibility for, she had, I'm not, I don't want to tell her story, but,

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:47

she had some stuff from her childhood and the way she was raised that was

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:53

continuing to keep her heart from mine.

Burke Atkerson: 00:39:59

And so if you're familiar with attachment styles, she hadn't avoided

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:02

an attachment style throughout her life saying emotions are scary.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:06

Emotions are used as manipulation.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:07

So I'm very emotional.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:09

I'm a feeler.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:10

so I, I would share my emotions and she would feel like I'm manipulating

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:13

her, so stuff like that, we're able to actually work through and connect

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:20

and build healthy attachments.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:22

And so after about 3 years, we actually took a 2 year pause from sex.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:28

And, we didn't want it to be two years.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:30

I didn't want it to be two days, but, it, that's how much time it took for her to

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:34

feel safe in relationship with me again.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:37

And

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:40

she, she said over and over, she said, I didn't, you didn't lose my trust, Burke.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:47

You never had my trust.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:50

And I remember three years into the process, we're cuddling, not

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:53

too close, but just laying in bed, touching it, skin on skin a little bit.

Burke Atkerson: 00:40:58

And she whispered to me, she said, Burke, I trust you now.

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:02

And that's huge because literally that never existed in our marriage.

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:05

So we're not just rebuilding something broken.

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:08

We're building something new.

Tim Winders: 00:41:10

What's

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:10

she's.

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:12

Amazing.

Tim Winders: 00:41:13

What just came to mind was this question, and I don't know

Tim Winders: 00:41:16

why I asked this question, but I asked you if you grew up easy or hard.

Tim Winders: 00:41:21

Sounds like she grew up a little bit harder than you did.

Tim Winders: 00:41:24

My wife and I are very similar.

Tim Winders: 00:41:25

I grew up easy.

Tim Winders: 00:41:26

She grew up hard.

Tim Winders: 00:41:27

Family, younger brother died of leukemia, all that kind of stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:41:31

and I realized that has, she may answer something similar to what

Tim Winders: 00:41:35

your wife said about, trust thing.

Tim Winders: 00:41:37

She didn't trust men is what it was.

Tim Winders: 00:41:39

And I was just lumped into that category.

Tim Winders: 00:41:42

So I've spent most of our time together attempting to build trust.

Tim Winders: 00:41:47

You had a situation where you obviously

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:50

Broke it.

Tim Winders: 00:41:51

broke it or, and it wasn't there, but whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:41:54

But,

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:54

I don't know.

Tim Winders: 00:41:55

yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:41:55

so one thing I'm excited about, I'm gonna go back to this cause I'm going to hammer

Burke Atkerson: 00:41:58

Thank you.

Tim Winders: 00:42:01

You're now in the mission field that you saw at seven years old.

Tim Winders: 00:42:05

It's been an

Tim Winders: 00:42:05

interesting winding path, but you see, I've always considered

Tim Winders: 00:42:10

business to be one of the most powerful mission fields because it's

Tim Winders: 00:42:14

biblical because it's in the Bible.

Tim Winders: 00:42:18

And I'm not against any of these that are full time ministry, but I'm getting

Tim Winders: 00:42:22

a little bit fatigued with some of the stuff I see there, and I'm trying not to

Tim Winders: 00:42:27

bash things and all that, but I see it.

Tim Winders: 00:42:31

Being part of the problem instead of the solution with

Tim Winders: 00:42:33

some of these things we're doing.

Tim Winders: 00:42:35

Because if things were happening in those buildings that we call small c

Tim Winders: 00:42:39

churches, then there wouldn't be the need for someone like you to go in

Tim Winders: 00:42:45

your backyard, light a fire, and invite

Tim Winders: 00:42:49

three, four, five guys to sit around.

Tim Winders: 00:42:51

And finally, Get some soul healing and interaction.

Tim Winders: 00:42:56

We should be able to do that in an atmosphere that we would call church.

Tim Winders: 00:42:59

So how's that

Tim Winders: 00:43:00

for a transition into

Tim Winders: 00:43:03

let's talk about how, you were in ministry, you were the guy, you were

Tim Winders: 00:43:07

at the top of the food chain and

Burke Atkerson: 00:43:09

Food

Tim Winders: 00:43:10

missions.

Tim Winders: 00:43:11

You were the.

Tim Winders: 00:43:12

I I don't

Tim Winders: 00:43:13

agree with

Burke Atkerson: 00:43:13

apostle.

Burke Atkerson: 00:43:14

let's call it a super apostle.

Tim Winders: 00:43:16

the Bible school we went to, it wasn't like they put

Tim Winders: 00:43:18

the chart up and said, okay, all you people are down here, real estate

Tim Winders: 00:43:22

investors, you're right above lawyers.

Tim Winders: 00:43:23

But then everybody else is above you.

Tim Winders: 00:43:25

and up

Tim Winders: 00:43:25

to that point.

Burke Atkerson: 00:43:26

That's a bad word.

Tim Winders: 00:43:27

yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:43:28

That's bad too.

Tim Winders: 00:43:29

So, so what, talk about that transition.

Tim Winders: 00:43:32

You came back seven years ago, obviously your turmoil, financial probably is a

Tim Winders: 00:43:36

mess, your relationship, you're working on healing there, all of that stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:43:40

And then somewhere along the way.

Tim Winders: 00:43:43

You said, okay, I need to work on some relationships.

Tim Winders: 00:43:46

And I do want to say all this is in the book.

Tim Winders: 00:43:48

So we're going to drive people to the book, but we've got about 15 minutes max.

Tim Winders: 00:43:54

So let's, uh, let's keep an eye on our time.

Tim Winders: 00:43:56

And I want us to mention the book a little bit before we finish up.

Burke Atkerson: 00:43:59

Let's do it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:00

Tim.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:00

I feel like we're cut from the same cloth.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:02

I love these conversations.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:04

We have the same mentality and, I guess value system and maybe even theology.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:08

we're so aligned with this, man, really ministry.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:12

That's the question, right?

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:13

What's ministry look like?

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:16

Is that kind of what I'm hearing you say if I were to summarize it so crudely?

Tim Winders: 00:44:19

when this thing we call ministry that people think it looks

Tim Winders: 00:44:23

a certain way You go off to another country you find out maybe it doesn't

Tim Winders: 00:44:28

you come back home and you find out It's in your backyard around a fire

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:34

yeah, and it's with me, if I'm listing a house, or if I'm renting

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:40

out a house, or if I'm meeting with the tenant, or if I'm meeting with the client,

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:46

there, the Father is present with me, just like Brother Lawrence washing dishes.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:54

The Father's right there with me and this is holy work.

Burke Atkerson: 00:44:57

There's another phrase I love, talking about fire nights is that safe places

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:04

are, actually I just forgot the phrase, safe places are holy places.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:07

Safe places are holy places.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:11

I want to create safe places for men and that is ministry.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:16

So I love C.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:18

S.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:18

Lewis.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:19

I'm sure every sermon you've heard quotes him at some point,

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:23

but I disagree with him on one.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:28

Point in the Narnia series where he talks about Aslan.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:32

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:33

He says, he is, he's not safe, but he's good, and God is wild

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:41

and he's capable of anything.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:44

He is phenomenally powerful and meek at the same time.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:47

Balanced with wisdom.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:50

what that is, that's a description of masculinity right there.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:54

Power, meek, balanced with wisdom.

Burke Atkerson: 00:45:58

so that means it's not abusive.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:00

Which means.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:02

He's safe

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:05

and he creates such a safe place for me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:11

So when I mess up or when I've messed up, what I, what shame was telling me,

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:16

the father was doing, was saying is, Oh, Burke, how could you not again?

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:21

When are you going to get past this?

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:22

When are you going to man up?

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:24

When are you going to figure it out?

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:26

I'm at the end of my rope.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:29

that's what shame wants me to think God's saying.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:33

he's right here next to me, wraps his arm around me, and he's Of course, Burke.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:38

Look at your marriage, or look at your friendships.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:40

Look at, the stress you had throughout the day, and this is

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:43

the only coping mechanism you have.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:46

what else would you expect?

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:47

And so I don't mean to lighten that or to say it, it doesn't matter because our

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:51

actions are, our decisions do matter, but his arm is just right there around us.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:56

Sorry.

Burke Atkerson: 00:46:56

This is really roundabout answer, isn't it?

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:00

So what I find is he's with us all the time and that's where ministry happens.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:06

We could be alone, we could be with somebody, we could be filling out an Excel

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:11

spreadsheet alone, sitting in the office and the father's right there with us.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:17

And he's saying, man, this is my son in whom I'm well pleased.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:21

I can be putting the kids down to bed at night and I could be aware of his

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:25

nearness and I could be unaware of it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:28

If I'm aware of it, it helps me return to the present.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:32

Or maybe I have to return to the present in order to be aware of it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:36

Chicken and the egg, but it also becomes ministry.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:39

Cause his presence ministers to me and it overflows from there.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:44

so then when I'm with my kids, if I'm aware of the father's nearness

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:48

and all of a sudden this isn't just putting the kids to sleep, this

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:52

is a chance to love on him deeply.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:54

and that's discipleship.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:56

That's life changing stuff.

Burke Atkerson: 00:47:58

same thing if I'm meeting with a client.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:00

I don't mean to oversimplify it,

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:06

but ministry really is, there's two parts.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:10

where the Father's, you know, cause Jesus said, I'm doing what the Father's doing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:14

I'm saying what the father's saying.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:16

So that required Jesus to be attentive to what the father was doing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:21

So if we're not aware of his presence, how are we going to

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:24

be aware of what he's saying?

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:26

If we're not present with ourself, how are we going to be present with him?

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:30

So really, so much of it starts in the body.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:32

And that's what I do in, in, with soul care coaching with men.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:35

I help them return to the body.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:37

And then presence expands from that space.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:42

How am I going to do ministry?

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:44

Unless it's just ego and just head.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:46

How am I going to do ministry if I'm not fully present?

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:50

And I'm not present with the Father?

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:52

Then it's this overflow thing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:54

It's this thing where I could just show up and be present

Burke Atkerson: 00:48:56

with men, and ministry happens.

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:00

I could just show up and be present with a client, and ministry happens.

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:05

But if I'm trying to do something, which I did for years, And i'm

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:09

trying to teach a verse or i'm trying to teach a concept i'm trying to

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:12

challenge a guy because that's what god wants me to do and that's ministry.

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:16

then nothing actually happens nothing substantial

Tim Winders: 00:49:20

Or you're just copying somebody else or you're

Tim Winders: 00:49:22

doing a program or I love one of the things you said in the book.

Tim Winders: 00:49:26

It's Hey, when you're sitting around the fire, don't do a teaching.

Tim Winders: 00:49:30

This is not a Bible study.

Tim Winders: 00:49:32

This is

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:32

Yeah

Tim Winders: 00:49:33

Hey man, which scripture let's go.

Tim Winders: 00:49:35

Let's pick a part of scripture, man.

Tim Winders: 00:49:37

What do you think?

Tim Winders: 00:49:38

And, I'm beginning to get to the place where I think that people

Tim Winders: 00:49:42

have shared enough sermons and teachings out there that maybe

Tim Winders: 00:49:47

everybody should stop for a while.

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:50

Amen, we don't have a knowledge issue.

Tim Winders: 00:49:54

No.

Tim Winders: 00:49:55

So we've

Burke Atkerson: 00:49:56

a relationship issue

Tim Winders: 00:49:57

we got, or going back to what you said and awareness to

Tim Winders: 00:50:00

be aware that should the father is in your presence at all time.

Tim Winders: 00:50:05

And I'll take it one more word that helps with my personality.

Tim Winders: 00:50:09

Be aware that 24 seven.

Tim Winders: 00:50:13

The father is in your presence.

Tim Winders: 00:50:15

You're in the father's presence and then allow the father to operate and work

Tim Winders: 00:50:21

through your life with whatever you're doing, if it's washing dishes, if it's

Tim Winders: 00:50:24

a real estate deal, if you're, whatever it is, allow, I did a big kingdom of

Tim Winders: 00:50:30

God study for a couple of years when I was coming out of Bible school.

Tim Winders: 00:50:34

And I wanted to understand the kingdom of God for me personally, and after

Tim Winders: 00:50:39

going through 104 scriptures and picking them apart, everything that referenced

Tim Winders: 00:50:43

kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven, Bert, my definition is it's mine.

Tim Winders: 00:50:47

Okay.

Tim Winders: 00:50:47

I'm not, you don't have to take this if you don't want to, but for

Tim Winders: 00:50:50

me, the kingdom of God is wherever God is allowed to rule and reign.

Tim Winders: 00:50:58

Now, some

Tim Winders: 00:50:58

people get really uncomfortable with that and I'm okay with that.

Tim Winders: 00:51:01

Again, it's my definition, not yours, because I know

Tim Winders: 00:51:06

my personality will, would not allow him at times,

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:10

This is my definition.

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:11

That's what i'm talking about.

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:12

We are cut from the same cloth the way i've always described it is it's wherever

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:17

Someone is submitted to the father

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:22

And that's exactly what you're saying.

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:23

He's allowed to reign

Tim Winders: 00:51:25

period.

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:25

that submission we're on the same page here.

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:27

It's amazing.

Tim Winders: 00:51:28

cool.

Tim Winders: 00:51:28

All right.

Tim Winders: 00:51:29

Well, tell me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:51:29

the kingdom of God.

Tim Winders: 00:51:32

so somewhere along the way, you started gathering

Tim Winders: 00:51:34

with guys around a fire.

Tim Winders: 00:51:35

I do want to make reference.

Tim Winders: 00:51:36

I think the week before this episode releases, I interviewed a guy

Tim Winders: 00:51:41

by the name of Leroy Height, who owns a company called Cutting Edge

Tim Winders: 00:51:47

Firewood out of Atlanta, Georgia.

Tim Winders: 00:51:49

He's got a 30, 000 foot warehouse and they do firewood.

Tim Winders: 00:51:52

And he spoke about fire.

Tim Winders: 00:51:54

He's a spiritual guy too, but we spoke about physical

Tim Winders: 00:51:57

fire in such a spiritual way.

Tim Winders: 00:51:59

So we're going to I'm going to, these episodes are going to come back to back.

Tim Winders: 00:52:03

So we've got cutting edge firewood, Leroy, people should have already listened to

Tim Winders: 00:52:07

that, and then we've got the the beauty of what can happen around a fire, because he

Tim Winders: 00:52:12

talked about just, you can't be in a rush when you got around a fire, there's the

Tim Winders: 00:52:16

smells, there's the, he spoke about, cause he, they sell high end firewood, that's

Tim Winders: 00:52:23

kiln dry, they bring it in from Africa, all this kind of stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:52:26

so talk about.

Tim Winders: 00:52:27

That presence of what goes on around the fire here in our

Tim Winders: 00:52:31

last few minutes that we've got.

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:34

there's a million things I could say about this.

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:36

We as humans, we need to be seen, safe, soothed.

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:40

And secure.

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:41

And so you've heard attachment theory unpacked neurologically.

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:45

There's a lot of research developmentally.

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:47

There's a lot of research and they'll do brain scans and anywhere from babies to

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:51

grown adults and these 3, these 4 things are the building blocks for healthy.

Burke Atkerson: 00:52:58

emotions for us to be healthy humans.

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:02

It's absolutely required across the board and all of our relationships

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:04

that are going to thrive.

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:06

what happens around a fire is a deep soothing that allows

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:11

us to return to the present.

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:14

and actually the whole act of soothing, or.

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:18

Regulating or co regulating if there's another person involved in this case.

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:23

We're around a fire We're co regulating together around a fire and the fire's

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:27

helping usher it So even from a counseling or psychological perspective, there's a

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:34

lot of science that backs this up john eldridge he said there's three things

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:38

that a man can stare indefinitely into and one is a body of water One's a

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:43

fire and one's a baby's face but what happens Is serotonin is being released,

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:49

in our brain and it soothes out the stress in our brains, the stress in our

Burke Atkerson: 00:53:55

bodies is soothed when we experience serotonin or a higher level of serotonin

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:00

receptors responding in our brains.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:02

so fire does that.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:03

We get to sit around and it's so sensory.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:07

you're listening to the crackle and I just have a freaking gas fireplace right now.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:11

So all we get is the dance, right?

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:14

the flames dance.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:15

but it's so beautiful.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:17

it still brings you in, even though it's not nearly as good as a wood fireplace.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:21

with wood, you see the transformation of the logs, and that's such

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:26

a symbol in and of itself, as we're together, what's happening.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:31

And the other thing is, when somebody shares the crap going

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:34

on in their life, shame wants to say, nobody wants to hear that.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:38

Keep that hidden.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:40

Shame wants to say, that's ugly.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:43

And they're going to reject you if you open up too much.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:48

and so what I like to think about is these ashes are like that shame thing,

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:54

because the guy's sitting around the fire, what are they looking at?

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:57

Yeah.

Burke Atkerson: 00:54:57

They might notice the ashes occasionally, but they're actually looking at the

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:00

light, the darkness doesn't define you.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:03

The light in you does the ashes of your story.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:06

Don't define you.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:08

But the light does, and that's the Spirit of God in you.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:11

the other thing that I love about fire is throughout scripture, so Jew, a lot of

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:15

the Jewish tradition, when they see fire, they equate it with the presence of God.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:21

that's a deep, culturally rich symbol for them.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:24

And that goes back, the pillar of fire.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:28

It goes to, Elisha or Elijah, with, against the gods of Baal or whatever

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:33

the prophets of Baal and the flame comes down and just consumes.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:40

And it's so many times throughout scripture, but it's so symbolic of

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:44

the father being present with them and leading them and with them.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:49

So it's presence.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:50

what I love too, is that picture of Jesus cooking fish.

Burke Atkerson: 00:55:54

By the fire for Peter after Peter had this huge failure denied him three times

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:02

and gave up on ministry and went back to fishing and Jesus invites him to a meal

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:07

over a fire and I think symbolically Peter would have taken that a it's

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:14

phenomenal because his best friends back.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:16

His savior's back.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:18

But there's also this culturally rich symbol of the father

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:23

being present with them.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:24

It was this re welcoming, and saying, you haven't screwed things up too bad.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:30

You're still welcome here on the fire.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:31

You're still welcome here in my presence.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:34

And it's just so all throughout scripture, you see it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:37

but the fire is a phenomenal symbol and it's this thing

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:41

that's also deeply masculine.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:42

I have three daughters and I have two sons and I have a third son on the way.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:48

My daughters never care about the fire unless there's marshmallows.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:52

My sons are drawn to it like bugs to a light.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:57

They cannot.

Burke Atkerson: 00:56:59

Like they're captivated by the fire and there's something deeply

Burke Atkerson: 00:57:02

masculine in there genetically.

Burke Atkerson: 00:57:04

That's calling out something in us.

Tim Winders: 00:57:08

the thing I love about the fire analogy is that you

Tim Winders: 00:57:11

really, especially if it's wood, we actually have a gas fire here

Tim Winders: 00:57:14

where we're at in the Black Hills, because you can't, we can't burn.

Tim Winders: 00:57:17

and I need to connect you with Leroy.

Tim Winders: 00:57:19

I think the two of y'all need to have a communication because he's

Tim Winders: 00:57:22

anyway, it'd be really cool.

Tim Winders: 00:57:24

So I did talk to him about the

Tim Winders: 00:57:26

upcoming interview here.

Tim Winders: 00:57:27

You can't.

Tim Winders: 00:57:29

Quickly build a fire.

Tim Winders: 00:57:31

You can't be impatient.

Tim Winders: 00:57:32

It's one of the reasons I like RVing.

Tim Winders: 00:57:33

I can't get in a hurry Which a lot of things in my life I get in a hurry

Tim Winders: 00:57:37

on and so I love the thought of that We're butting up against our time here

Tim Winders: 00:57:41

berk But what i'd love for you to do is real quick Tell people about the

Tim Winders: 00:57:44

book fire knights who needs to get it and where they could find it And then

Tim Winders: 00:57:48

i've got one more question before we wrap up in and jump off here We may

Tim Winders: 00:57:52

need to do a part two at some point.

Tim Winders: 00:57:54

But you know Tell us about the book real quick, Fire Knights,

Tim Winders: 00:57:57

Forging Brotherhood That Heals.

Tim Winders: 00:58:00

I

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:03

the book really is a call towards connection because the

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:06

path of least resistance is isolation.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:09

So if we don't actually move towards connection, it doesn't happen.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:12

so fire nights is giving a model for that, but I'm sure there's.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:16

There's a dozen of you men that are already meeting around fires

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:19

or already meeting around with men and somewhere or another that's

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:22

rich and full of connections.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:25

So just keep doing that.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:26

If you're meeting around fires, this can be something

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:29

supplemental to what you're doing.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:31

This can be something that adds richness to how you guys meet.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:36

it's almost the art of meeting around fire with other men.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:41

But what I'm most concerned about is that people aren't

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:44

just sitting alone in isolation.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:46

And so the dedication of the book is to the men who struggle,

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:50

you're not alone anymore.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:53

And that phrase, you're not alone anymore, almost makes me want to cry.

Burke Atkerson: 00:58:57

Cause most of my life I've been popular and surrounded by people at

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:01

times on stage in front of thousands.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:04

And I've lived a very lonely life and I've found I need rich,

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:09

deep friendships around me.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:11

So the book is really about that.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:13

and sure there's some of my story.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:15

Sure.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:15

There's a model for it.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:17

but just be moving towards relationship.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:19

If you don't have that kind of stuff in your life, that's where the fire

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:22

nights community online comes in.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:25

I think it costs a dollar a month.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:27

and it's a video based app right now.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:30

you can send audios or text messages.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:33

you can send it individually or to the whole group.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:36

and you can do check ins daily or weekly.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:39

And just say, hey, this is where I'm at in my body this week.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:41

Or this is where I'm at in my marriage.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:43

or I'm just feeling really lonely and wish I was dating someone, or whatever.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:47

And it could just be a place to check in.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:48

It could also be a place to celebrate.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:51

but it's about connection.

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:52

So if you don't have that going on in your life, start a fire night, or join

Burke Atkerson: 00:59:56

the fire nights group, and I would love to get to know you and hear your story,

Tim Winders: 01:00:00

think, uh, and

Tim Winders: 01:00:01

get the book, get the book,

Burke Atkerson: 01:00:02

nights.

Burke Atkerson: 01:00:03

net

Tim Winders: 01:00:04

Okay.

Tim Winders: 01:00:04

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 01:00:04

Okay.

Tim Winders: 01:00:05

Fireknights.

Tim Winders: 01:00:05

net.

Tim Winders: 01:00:06

And,

Tim Winders: 01:00:06

um, the reason I think the book is valuable is it, I

Tim Winders: 01:00:10

don't want to say it's a guide.

Tim Winders: 01:00:11

It's not like a how to or anything, but I think it gives the heart.

Tim Winders: 01:00:16

Of what one should do in this, it's not a start with this, light the fire

Tim Winders: 01:00:21

and make sure there's, you know, it's, it's not that it is the heart of it.

Tim Winders: 01:00:25

And I appreciate that.

Tim Winders: 01:00:27

And, just get the book.

Tim Winders: 01:00:28

If it definitely a man, I don't, women probably not for them maybe,

Tim Winders: 01:00:33

but women maybe buy it for your man, get a copy for your man.

Tim Winders: 01:00:36

Right.

Burke Atkerson: 01:00:37

I've seen that, over half of my sales have been

Burke Atkerson: 01:00:39

therapists buying it for their clients.

Tim Winders: 01:00:41

interesting.

Tim Winders: 01:00:42

I could definitely see that.

Tim Winders: 01:00:44

Hey, Burke, we're sick.

Tim Winders: 01:00:45

Go create those three words.

Tim Winders: 01:00:48

Pick one.

Tim Winders: 01:00:50

don't overthink it.

Tim Winders: 01:00:50

Seek, go or create and wise.

Tim Winders: 01:00:52

My final question and quick wrap up here.

Burke Atkerson: 01:00:57

I am, at the core of me, a creator and an artisan.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:02

I don't even think I'm an author.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:03

I'm, I don't think I'm a musician.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:05

Although I was touring, living in a tour bus for a while.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:08

I was, I traveled the world.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:10

I've done photography, productions in the fashion world for about a decade.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:16

on five continents.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:18

so there's a lot of stuff that I've been doing, but ultimately

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:21

it comes down to create.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:22

And I realized, Oh, there's something in that's actually a reflection

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:27

of the creator who is my father.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:29

and so I just, that stirs something so deep in me.

Burke Atkerson: 01:01:33

Thank you, Tim.

Tim Winders: 01:01:34

Yeah, create.

Tim Winders: 01:01:35

Thank you, Burke.

Tim Winders: 01:01:36

Make sure you get ahold of fire nights and connect with Burke.

Tim Winders: 01:01:41

Find him.

Tim Winders: 01:01:42

maybe even check out the real estate.

Tim Winders: 01:01:43

I think that book just came out.

Tim Winders: 01:01:44

I think fire nights was almost a year ago or something like that.

Tim Winders: 01:01:48

I love this conversation because it fits So well with what we're attempting to

Tim Winders: 01:01:53

do here, have people just transform, think differently, not be caught

Tim Winders: 01:01:59

up in dogma and things like that.

Tim Winders: 01:02:01

So I appreciate you, Bert.

Tim Winders: 01:02:03

Thanks for listening in here.

Tim Winders: 01:02:04

We've got new episodes on YouTube or your podcast platform every Monday.

Tim Winders: 01:02:10

Support us.

Tim Winders: 01:02:10

If you'd like to go to seek, go create.

Tim Winders: 01:02:13

com forward slash support.

Tim Winders: 01:02:15

You can throw some money our way.

Tim Winders: 01:02:16

We will accept it and receive it and, love to get that.

Tim Winders: 01:02:20

And, I'll just say this until next time, continue being all

Tim Winders: 01:02:24

that you were created to be.