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From Shame to Strength: Burke Atkerson's Fire Nights Movement
What does it truly mean to balance living in a modern world while being citizens of the kingdom of God? In this thought-provoking episode of Seek Go Create, guest Burke Atkerson opens up about his journey from traditional ministry to creating impactful connections through his Fire Nights movement. Join host Tim Winders as they delve into overcoming addiction, rebuilding trust, and redefining ministry beyond Sunday mornings. If you've ever struggled with finding your identity in a spiritual and secular world, this is an episode you won't want to miss!
"Ministry isn't confined to Sunday mornings; it's in every relationship and interaction we have." - Burke Atkerson
Access all show and episode resources HERE
About Our Guest:
Burke Atkerson is an accomplished entrepreneur, real estate investor, and soul care coach dedicated to transforming lives and relationships through deep, meaningful connections. With a rich background in missionary work, Burke leverages his unique experiences from South America to author the influential book "Fire Nights," a movement aimed at turning loneliness into brotherhood. His extensive journey through personal struggles and triumphs makes him a compelling advocate for mental health, spiritual growth, and the importance of creating safe spaces for men. Burke's work has garnered attention from therapists and individuals seeking profound change, making him a distinguished thought leader in ministry and personal development.
Reasons to Listen:
1. **In-Depth Spiritual Insights**: Discover how Burke Atkerson navigates the complex balance between living in the secular world and being a citizen of the Kingdom of God, providing practical and spiritual wisdom you can apply to your own life.
2. **Raw Personal Stories**: Hear powerful, personal experiences from Burke and Tim as they tackle challenging subjects like ego, addiction, and the healing process in their marriages, offering a candid look at overcoming life's hardest trials.
3. **Transformative Community Building**: Explore the concept of "Fire Nights," a unique movement that turns loneliness into brotherhood, and learn how gathering around a fire can create safe spaces and foster deep, meaningful connections among men.
Episode Resources & Action Steps:
### Resources Mentioned
1. **Book:** "Fire Nights" by Burke Atkerson
- This book emphasizes the importance of connection and community, specifically for men struggling with isolation and loneliness.
2. **Online Community:** Fire Nights
- An associated online community linked to "Fire Nights" where men can connect, share experiences, and find support for personal struggles.
### Action Steps
1. **Engage in Community Building:**
- Identify or create safe spaces where open and honest conversations can occur, much like the concept of gathering around a fire as discussed in "Fire Nights."
- Focus on fostering deep connections and brotherhood to combat isolation and loneliness.
2. **Prioritize Being Present:**
- Implement practices that help you stay fully present and aware in your daily interactions, whether with family, friends, or in professional settings.
- Consider mindfulness techniques or simple grounding practices to reconnect with the present moment.
3. **Reach Out for Support:**
- If you are struggling with addiction or personal issues, don't hesitate to reach out to supportive communities or seek professional help.
- Engage with resources like the Fire Knights community or consider reading materials that address mental health and connection, such as "Fire Nights."
Resources for Leaders from Tim Winders & SGC:
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- ๐ Coaching with Tim: Elevate your leadership and align your work with your faith. Learn More
- ๐ "Coach: A Story of Success Redefined": A transformative read that will challenge your views on success. Grab Your Copy
- ๐ Faith Driven Leader Quiz: Discover how well you're aligning faith and work with our quick quiz. Take the Quiz
Key Lessons:
1. **Ministry Beyond Traditional Roles:** Ministry isn't confined to Sunday services or specific religious roles; it encompasses all types of relationships and daily interactions. Being present and fully aware of God's presence allows for true ministry to unfold.
2. **Balancing Spiritual and Secular Life:** One of the significant challenges for modern believers is reconciling living in the world while also being citizens of the Kingdom of God. This balance includes providing for one's family and staying true to spiritual values.
3. **Healing through Healthy Relationships:** Overcoming addiction and personal struggles often requires learning how to build healthy, supportive friendships. For Burke, relearning how to relate to his wife and other men has been fundamental to his healing journey.
4. **The Symbolism and Importance of Fire:** Gathering around a fire can offer a sense of safety, security, and connection. Fire is symbolic in many religious and cultural traditions and serves as a metaphor for re-igniting meaningful relationships and returning to the present moment.
5. **Creating Safe Spaces for Men:** Supporting men in facing loneliness and isolation can lead to transformative experiences. Offering them a safe environment to share their struggles and build authentic connections is essential for personal growth and healing.
These lessons underscore the episode's exploration of what it means to live out one's faith authentically and the importance of community and connection in personal and spiritual development.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 The Journey to Healthy Friendships
00:29 Introducing Burke Atkerson and Fire Nights
03:12 Burke's Multifaceted Career and Soul Care Coaching
04:30 Deep Spiritual Reflections and Personal Struggles
10:16 The Pyramid of Importance and Ego Battles
11:58 Burke's Early Life and Missionary Calling
23:48 The Struggle with Pornography and Addiction
34:01 Using Humor and Competency to Mask Shame
34:45 The Role of Religion in Inducing Shame
35:23 Struggles and Shame in Missionary Work
36:31 Marriage Challenges and Healing
42:00 The Importance of Safe Spaces in Ministry
51:32 The Healing Power of Fire Nights
57:33 Conclusion and Call to Action
Thank you for listening to Seek Go Create!
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Mentioned in this episode:
Overcome Leadership Challenges with Tim Winders
Feeling overwhelmed in your leadership journey? You're not alone. Tim Winders, your SeekGoCreate host, is here to guide you through those tough moments as an experienced executive coach. From mastering team dynamics to making strategic decisions and fostering personal growth, Tim offers the support you need to break through barriers and achieve what once seemed impossible. Donโt let challenges define your leadership. Book a free Discovery Coaching Call with Tim today and take the first step towards a path of greater success and satisfaction. It's time to transform your challenges into opportunities.
Transcript
Nothing actually worked until I began to learn
Burke Atkerson:how to have healthy friendships.
Burke Atkerson:A, I had to relearn how to relate with my wife, right?
Burke Atkerson:That's a given.
Burke Atkerson:But also, I really needed to relearn how to relate with men.
Burke Atkerson:And that's been core to my healing.
Burke Atkerson:Um, uh,
Tim Winders:What if there was a movement that could transform
Tim Winders:the epidemic of loneliness into a brotherhood of resilience and support?
Tim Winders:Today on Seek, Go Create the Leadership Journey, we had the
Tim Winders:pleasure of speaking with Berk.
Tim Winders:Atkerson, an entrepreneur, author, and the driving force behind Fire
Tim Winders:Knights, a men's movement that's changing lives across the nation.
Tim Winders:Burke uses his expertise to create impact driven real estate investments while
Tim Winders:dedicating himself to building communities where men can share their struggles
Tim Winders:and triumphs openly and authentically.
Tim Winders:Join us as Burke shares insights from his book, Fire Knights, a transformative
Tim Winders:guide that is part memoir, part manifesto, and a call to action for men
Tim Winders:everywhere to embrace vulnerability, seek meaningful connections, and
Tim Winders:rediscover their strength through unity.
Tim Winders:Let's dive into how Burke's personal journey and professional expertise
Tim Winders:converge to foster a revolution in masculinity and mental health.
Tim Winders:Burke, welcome to Seek, Go Create.
Burke Atkerson:Wow.
Burke Atkerson:Tim, thank you so much.
Burke Atkerson:I can't believe how eloquently you described my entire life in one minute.
Burke Atkerson:I'm so impressed.
Burke Atkerson:That was phenomenal.
Burke Atkerson:I'm gonna, I'm gonna take notes.
Tim Winders:good.
Tim Winders:I gathered some of your info.
Tim Winders:I got AI to help me a little bit, just so you know.
Tim Winders:And so we're, we are, let me just go ahead and let the audience know.
Tim Winders:These are two real guys.
Tim Winders:We actually, so we're, this is not AI generated stuff here.
Tim Winders:anyway, yeah, enjoyed reading the book and we're going to have a great
Tim Winders:conversation here, Bert, but, similar.
Tim Winders:we've just met.
Tim Winders:I met from a connection from a good friend of mine, Caleb said,
Tim Winders:you got to talk to this guy.
Tim Winders:It'd be a great fit for you.
Tim Winders:So let's just pretend you weren't on a plane.
Tim Winders:We're out and about, we bump into each other and I say, Burke, what do you do?
Tim Winders:What kind of answer do you have?
Tim Winders:And you can't just repeat what I just said.
Tim Winders:You got to come up with something fresh here.
Tim Winders:Okay.
Burke Atkerson:Yeah.
Burke Atkerson:Let me ask GPT real quick.
Burke Atkerson:What do I do?
Burke Atkerson:I love that.
Burke Atkerson:I love that question.
Burke Atkerson:but I hate the answers 'cause it's too complicated.
Burke Atkerson:Usually depends who I'm talking to, right?
Burke Atkerson:Where did I meet them?
Burke Atkerson:Did I meet them in a space with real estate investors?
Burke Atkerson:Did I meet them in a space with ministers?
Burke Atkerson:Did I meet them in a space at, at the park, with my wife and kids?
Burke Atkerson:it's really quite complex because I'm spinning 10 plates at the same time.
Burke Atkerson:And, somebody asked me the other day, if I was a hundred percent an author,
Burke Atkerson:cause I've written two books, if that's all I did, would I, would I be content?
Burke Atkerson:That'd be, and I'm like, no.
Burke Atkerson:I've got to be doing five other things at the same time.
Burke Atkerson:And, I want to keep writing cause it's a, it's an escape.
Burke Atkerson:it's a creative outlet and it's a place where I could actually use my voice.
Burke Atkerson:But what I do, I help real estate investors.
Burke Atkerson:I am a real estate investor and, I've got a construction company.
Burke Atkerson:I've got a turnkey fix and flip company, and I've got a multifamily investment,
Burke Atkerson:partnership as well, that we're building up stuff all over the U S.
Burke Atkerson:however.
Burke Atkerson:I'm also a soul care coach.
Burke Atkerson:Some would, I called my work spiritual direction for a long time, for a few
Burke Atkerson:years, but I realized that I lean a lot more on the somatic side of things
Burke Atkerson:when I'm working with men, checking in with their bodies a lot more than
Burke Atkerson:just their minds, or just their hearts.
Burke Atkerson:And cause I think it's a beautiful triad.
Burke Atkerson:I'm also checking in with the relationships cause
Burke Atkerson:that's key to everything.
Burke Atkerson:And that probably in some, in the book.
Burke Atkerson:Talk about those four spheres of our lives or of our souls.
Burke Atkerson:And, yeah, so spiritual or, sorry.
Burke Atkerson:Soul care coaching is what I do as a hobby.
Burke Atkerson:It's not a big income stream.
Burke Atkerson:It's a chance to bring other men to connection and move them
Burke Atkerson:towards mental health and towards connecting deeply with the father.
Burke Atkerson:I think.
Burke Atkerson:The biggest gap is the gap between our heads and our hearts.
Burke Atkerson:And so I want to help man close that gap.
Tim Winders:It's going to be an odd question, follow up, but
Tim Winders:this is fresh on my mind.
Tim Winders:This morning I did an odd mashup of reading the end of the book of
Tim Winders:Revelation and then I jumped back to mid Matthew and read through the Olivet
Tim Winders:Discourse and I'm doing a deeper dive into end times and eschatology than any
Tim Winders:person should right now.
Tim Winders:Don't please, I don't
Tim Winders:want, I don't want to get started on that.
Tim Winders:I do not want to go down that
Tim Winders:path, but.
Tim Winders:I had this
Burke Atkerson:let's call in my buddy Kurt Cameron for this conversation
Tim Winders:oh, that'd be awesome.
Tim Winders:I've got a lot of thoughts on that, especially from actually reading
Tim Winders:the Bible, not listening to what other people say about is in the
Tim Winders:Bible, this is a thought I had.
Tim Winders:So I'm going to ask it of you, cause I know you've got
Tim Winders:a deep spiritual background.
Tim Winders:You got a deep ministry background.
Tim Winders:And you mentioned there's audiences that if you are asked that question, what
Tim Winders:you do, you might give it differently.
Tim Winders:But I'm sitting here reading in Matthew and I'm reading in John and I'm thinking
Tim Winders:to myself, what if I was having a conversation with one of them or with
Tim Winders:Jesus and they asked me what I do.
Tim Winders:Because we are going to be judged by our works and it, I don't think it's
Tim Winders:the same works that we define works as, but we don't have to get into that.
Tim Winders:But if we're in a deep spiritual mindset and someone says, what do you do?
Tim Winders:if we were able to sit here and have conversations with Jesus
Tim Winders:or Peter or Matthew, and they said, Burke, what do you do?
Tim Winders:What would your response be to them?
Tim Winders:That's a tough question.
Tim Winders:Sorry, man.
Tim Winders:We're diving into deep into the pool right out of the gate here.
Burke Atkerson:you know Just checking in with my body as you asked that
Burke Atkerson:question, I, I sense shame flaring up in me, Matthew, when he said, get
Burke Atkerson:away from me, I'm a sinner, and what I do, I feel like is not enough because
Burke Atkerson:there, there is a lot of need, right?
Burke Atkerson:But I'm also torn in a lot of directions and I've got to take care of my family.
Burke Atkerson:And so that is part of what I do, just whatever it takes.
Burke Atkerson:But there's something in me that flares up and it's an old message
Burke Atkerson:that says I'm not good enough.
Burke Atkerson:Not I'm not enough.
Burke Atkerson:It's that I'm not good enough.
Burke Atkerson:It's almost a moral paradigm.
Burke Atkerson:and what I mean by that is I'm not, accomplishing enough.
Burke Atkerson:And for years, for decades, I tried to win the Father's approval
Burke Atkerson:by the ministry that I did.
Burke Atkerson:And it's been, almost seven years now of realizing
Burke Atkerson:and just sitting in the fact that he loves me because I'm Burke, not because
Burke Atkerson:of what I do, not because of what I've accomplished, not because of the lives
Burke Atkerson:I've changed or the impact I've made.
Burke Atkerson:so if I were in that conversation with them, that part of me is
Burke Atkerson:exposed, Okay, let's talk about ministry because I am doing ministry.
Burke Atkerson:I'm in full time ministry, even though I haven't had a title for seven years.
Burke Atkerson:that was stripped away from me when I effed things up, when we're on
Burke Atkerson:the mission field and in a way we're kicked off the field and in a way we're
Burke Atkerson:invited into a restoration process.
Burke Atkerson:And I write about that in the book, but.
Burke Atkerson:Yeah.
Burke Atkerson:To this day, I'm leading men to the father.
Burke Atkerson:I'm leading men to each other, which those are the two commandments, right?
Burke Atkerson:I'm leading men to their hearts above all else guard that.
Tim Winders:Yeah.
Burke Atkerson:So that's my mission.
Burke Atkerson:And I do that in the real estate space.
Burke Atkerson:I do that with real estate investors.
Burke Atkerson:I have a real estate client here that I helped him buy his first house.
Burke Atkerson:And.
Burke Atkerson:Then he came to the faith over time.
Burke Atkerson:We started smoking cigars together once every two or three months.
Burke Atkerson:And then he bought a real estate investment property and now he's in
Burke Atkerson:the investing space and I'm helping him in all these spheres, but we're
Burke Atkerson:still getting together over cigars and just saying, man, how's your heart?
Burke Atkerson:How are you connecting with the father?
Burke Atkerson:I love the guy.
Burke Atkerson:I have a few friendships like that, but that's just an example of, ministry
Burke Atkerson:isn't this thing that happens on Sunday mornings, as you know, Tim,
Burke Atkerson:but ministry also isn't this thing that only happens if you have a
Burke Atkerson:title or a role that you're playing.
Burke Atkerson:And I think that's probably how I'd have the conversation with these guys.
Tim Winders:We may back up in just a minute here and I
Tim Winders:want to learn more about a little bit, a little bit of growing up
Tim Winders:and a little bit how you, how and why you got into ministry.
Tim Winders:But the question that I think a lot of men struggle with.
Tim Winders:I think a lot of people in our modern culture.
Tim Winders:So I'll mention this and I think I want to preface this with, I realize
Tim Winders:no one really knows the answer.
Tim Winders:This is part of a journey that we go on.
Tim Winders:And that is how do we, how do we operate in the kingdom of God?
Tim Winders:And Babylon at the same time and you brought it up You said you're you know
Tim Winders:You got to provide for the family and there's scriptures for that I think
Tim Winders:some men were beating over the head with that scripture of you're worse
Tim Winders:than an infidel and blah blah blah I think that's taken out of context by
Tim Winders:the way, but let's we don't have to get into that here How have you reconciled?
Tim Winders:And I know you've been around a lot of other men sitting around fires and stuff
Tim Winders:like that, but how have you reconciled and how do you see other people reconcile,
Tim Winders:uh, being in the world, but not of the world being citizens of the kingdom of
Tim Winders:God, passport stamped, everything we're good, but yet we're still in, in this
Tim Winders:earth where we, we got some bills to pay.
Tim Winders:We want our kids and our, Wives and all to be taken care of.
Tim Winders:And anyway, how's that
Tim Winders:working out for you and what can you share?
Burke Atkerson:Man, that's a broad question.
Burke Atkerson:it almost seems like the way I was raised in West Texas, which
Burke Atkerson:is the Bible Belt, there were it's like a hierarchy of importance.
Burke Atkerson:There's like the laymen who, they own businesses or they're blue collar workers
Burke Atkerson:and they provide money for the actual ministers, like they're down here.
Burke Atkerson:This is a way I understood it as a kid, whether or not it was communicated.
Burke Atkerson:and maybe that's the way, valued it, but they didn't talk
Burke Atkerson:about it explicitly that way.
Burke Atkerson:then there's the next tier of actual, people who are helping at the church,
Burke Atkerson:the elders, the guy shaking hands at the front door, welcoming people into the
Burke Atkerson:church and, volunteers they're cooking for the potlucks or whatever, they're
Burke Atkerson:going to Wednesday nights and the Bible studies and it's that's the next year.
Burke Atkerson:Those are people who are actively involved.
Burke Atkerson:They're important.
Burke Atkerson:Oh, even more important than them is people are in staff, youth pastor.
Burke Atkerson:It's like this whole pyramid.
Burke Atkerson:And as a kid, I saw this hierarchy subconsciously.
Burke Atkerson:And I There was a missionary, that was introduced to the church and the way the
Burke Atkerson:pastor talked about this missionary made me realize he was superior to the pastor.
Burke Atkerson:like he is of most importance way up there.
Burke Atkerson:Like this guy is a value.
Burke Atkerson:and the way, the same way they talked about the apostles, right?
Burke Atkerson:Like those guys, geez, like we'll never compare to that.
Burke Atkerson:We're not that important.
Burke Atkerson:we're not that valuable.
Burke Atkerson:And I grew up with that little pyramid, and maybe it goes up to Jesus at the top.
Burke Atkerson:I don't know, but my life has been unraveling that pyramid because when I was
Burke Atkerson:seven years old, and we could, this may be a different conversation, but when I was
Burke Atkerson:seven years old, I know the voice of God.
Burke Atkerson:I'm familiar.
Burke Atkerson:And I respond to it, when I realize I'm hearing it, I'm like, Oh, that's what
Burke Atkerson:I want to do, and it's always through filtered through the scripture, right?
Burke Atkerson:So for me, I was coloring a coloring sheet.
Burke Atkerson:In second grade, and the Lord spoke to me at the bottom of it, there was a verse,
Burke Atkerson:March 16, 15, go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
Burke Atkerson:or whatever it was King James version.
Burke Atkerson:And I know that he was speaking to me.
Burke Atkerson:It resonated deep in me.
Burke Atkerson:I was 7 years old in this Hans class, second grade, and I
Burke Atkerson:went home and I said, mom, dad.
Burke Atkerson:I'm going to be a missionary when I grow up.
Burke Atkerson:And my parents didn't understand me.
Burke Atkerson:I found out years later, they were praying for how to raise me the night before.
Burke Atkerson:So God was answering their prayer.
Burke Atkerson:There's so many things happening in this story, but at the same
Burke Atkerson:time, subconsciously, I remembered.
Burke Atkerson:That the missionary is important
Burke Atkerson:from, church experiences.
Burke Atkerson:And my ego immediately began to cling onto it.
Burke Atkerson:So I feel like your question is too, is multifaceted because you've
Burke Atkerson:got this spiritual secular divide.
Burke Atkerson:tension or a gap.
Burke Atkerson:And then you also have this inner world issue that ministers struggle with.
Burke Atkerson:I'm important because I'm in ministry.
Burke Atkerson:God loves me.
Burke Atkerson:Or, sometimes they'll even say that somebody who teaches the word is held
Burke Atkerson:to a higher standard, like Moses, and they'll give those verses and you can
Burke Atkerson:tell they're setting themselves up on a higher level of importance, which is okay.
Burke Atkerson:it's biblically backed, but what I'm talking about is the ego,
Burke Atkerson:because there's two things that are, I feel like the battleground
Burke Atkerson:happens in the space of our heart.
Burke Atkerson:Sorry, the battleground happens in the space of our heart
Burke Atkerson:and the space of our ego.
Burke Atkerson:And so we look at behaviors all the time.
Burke Atkerson:Behaviors are top of the iceberg, above the surface level.
Burke Atkerson:everything under the water, the rest of the iceberg, that's where you
Burke Atkerson:talk about ego, that's where you talk about dysfunction, that's where
Burke Atkerson:you talk about struggles, that's where All the vulnerability lies.
Burke Atkerson:but ego's in there.
Burke Atkerson:It's such a big battleground.
Burke Atkerson:And so as a child, my ego clung onto it.
Burke Atkerson:And what I found is it was the only place in my life where I found
Burke Atkerson:value, respect, and affirmation.
Burke Atkerson:From my family, from extended family, from people at church, from people at my
Burke Atkerson:little Christian school, I went to, they admired me because someday, say on hero
Burke Atkerson:day or career day, I would dress up as a missionary, and brooch co is my favorite
Burke Atkerson:book, little missionary book, right?
Burke Atkerson:these are my heroes, but at the same time, it was forming my identity around.
Burke Atkerson:Oh, then I'll have purpose.
Burke Atkerson:Then I'll have meaning and significance.
Burke Atkerson:And so the last seven years we've been, we got.
Burke Atkerson:thrown off the mission field in a way it was the most painful thing for my
Burke Atkerson:ego I ever could have experienced.
Burke Atkerson:And yet, it's the most healthy thing for my marriage.
Burke Atkerson:It's been the biggest blessing for me, for my inner world, for
Burke Atkerson:my relationship with the Father.
Burke Atkerson:Just to know at a heart level, oh, my Father's not disappointed in me.
Burke Atkerson:He's proud of me.
Burke Atkerson:And I'm not even doing anything, quote unquote.
Burke Atkerson:I'm not even, baptizing X amount of people or whatever.
Burke Atkerson:and so a lot of my healing journey has been just unraveling that pyramid and that
Burke Atkerson:divide and realizing, I'm sure you've read Practicing the Presence, Brother Lawrence.
Tim Winders:Yeah, no.
Burke Atkerson:it's, it was written 500 years ago by a monk, and he's
Burke Atkerson:washing dishes in a monastery, and he's recognizing that God's present with him,
Burke Atkerson:and what he's doing is important, simply because he's doing it with the Father.
Burke Atkerson:How holy and sanctified is that?
Tim Winders:and that's what we miss.
Tim Winders:And I, you're, we're tracking real well here.
Tim Winders:I grew up pursuing business because I was going to make me some money.
Tim Winders:I popped in and out of church every once in a while.
Tim Winders:And so I was business guy.
Tim Winders:I actually got saved in a business setting.
Tim Winders:So my paradigm is a little different.
Tim Winders:And as you were talking, I'm sitting here going, your seven
Tim Winders:year old prophecy has come true.
Tim Winders:You are a missionary.
Tim Winders:It just doesn't look like that paradigm you thought the missionary
Tim Winders:was supposed to look like.
Tim Winders:we talk about redefining success here, and I think that's a weird
Tim Winders:thing, but what we really look at do is busting tradition and paradigms.
Tim Winders:And the paradigm that you had was accurate, but in the little world we
Tim Winders:lived in, you lived in West Texas, the only thing you knew was that
Tim Winders:one missionary that came in that one Sunday and everybody bowed down
Tim Winders:to him and all that kind of stuff.
Tim Winders:So you are a missionary, that's been very prophetic and
Tim Winders:you're walking in that calling.
Tim Winders:And so that's cool, it's just, not what we originally thought.
Tim Winders:Growing up in
Tim Winders:West Texas, sorry, I need a question or two from that.
Tim Winders:So here's my question.
Tim Winders:And it's going to relate to some things we're going to
Tim Winders:talk about in a little while.
Tim Winders:Do you think that you grew up easy or hard?
Burke Atkerson:that's a really good question.
Burke Atkerson:I've never thought about it.
Tim Winders:While you're thinking, here's my theory.
Tim Winders:Here's my theory on it while you're thinking.
Tim Winders:I
Tim Winders:have this theory that some of us that grow up easy will have a
Tim Winders:hard at some point in our life.
Tim Winders:making a theology out of that.
Tim Winders:I'm not going to build a doctrine around it, but some people that have
Tim Winders:had it hard early on, they can move into easier, even though they've
Tim Winders:got to deal with some of that hard.
Tim Winders:And so, I don't, just, and don't overthink, but do you, would you say you
Tim Winders:were easy or hard growing up?
Tim Winders:In West Texas.
Burke Atkerson:my answer is going to set myself up for failure then.
Burke Atkerson:or a lot of suffering.
Burke Atkerson:I had
Tim Winders:you go.
Tim Winders:It's a trick question.
Burke Atkerson:I had an easy childhood.
Burke Atkerson:my, my parents remained married.
Burke Atkerson:They're still married to this day.
Burke Atkerson:which is increasingly uncommon.
Burke Atkerson:And in hindsight, I don't know how they stayed together, and I think any marriage
Burke Atkerson:that does stay together is a miracle.
Burke Atkerson:honestly, the traumas and the wounds I experienced as a kid were minor.
Burke Atkerson:And there were little t traumas that accumulated over time.
Burke Atkerson:And my parents loved me deeply.
Burke Atkerson:And they were first generation believers.
Burke Atkerson:they had us in the church.
Burke Atkerson:So if anything, one of my wounds is being overchurched as a kid, and.
Burke Atkerson:But what a first world problem, what a incredible set of issues to have.
Burke Atkerson:so I'm really grateful for my story, for my childhood experience.
Burke Atkerson:And, yeah, there were a few low hard times, but even deaths, there
Burke Atkerson:hadn't been a lot throughout my life.
Burke Atkerson:everybody I know knows somebody who's committed suicide.
Burke Atkerson:And actually I do know a handful of people, but none of them were dear.
Burke Atkerson:None of them were close.
Burke Atkerson:friends, I felt loss over it, if that makes sense.
Burke Atkerson:And I don't mean for that sound cold, or too detached.
Burke Atkerson:but yeah, pretty freaking easy actually now in hindsight, and that
Burke Atkerson:stirs up gratitude in me on the other hand, there's still suffering.
Burke Atkerson:And I used to fear that I used to see time after time, big pastors who,
Burke Atkerson:got brain cancer or their wife got cancer and died a severe mercy kind
Burke Atkerson:of stories, if you read that book.
Burke Atkerson:And it seemed like all these big hitters in the world were going through
Burke Atkerson:tremendous suffering at some point.
Burke Atkerson:And I always viewed that as, wow, they were targets for the enemy.
Burke Atkerson:maybe I over spiritualized it a little bit.
Burke Atkerson:What I've realized over time is that it rains on the just and the unjust alike.
Tim Winders:That's
Burke Atkerson:That everybody experiences blessings that we could be grateful for.
Burke Atkerson:Everybody experiences sufferings and the Father's with us.
Tim Winders:Yeah.
Burke Atkerson:the pain, the father's with us in the suffering.
Burke Atkerson:And so I have experienced some hardships in my marriage, just
Burke Atkerson:hanging on by a thread for years.
Burke Atkerson:And, what I've found is the nearness of the father.
Tim Winders:That's so good.
Tim Winders:You brought up something that triggered something in me for the longest.
Tim Winders:All during COVID, during my kind of quiet, I guess we'll call it meditation time.
Tim Winders:I would listen to the Audie audio of the Sermon on the Mount.
Tim Winders:It's right at 15 minutes, by the way, so it's really cool.
Tim Winders:And right at the end there, there's teaching that Jesus does.
Tim Winders:He says, you could, this is Tim's paraphrase, you can have your house
Tim Winders:built on a rock or you could not have your house built on the rock.
Tim Winders:And of course the rock being the foundation of faith and things like that.
Tim Winders:What's interesting is the rains, the storms and the winds come to both houses.
Tim Winders:It's just a matter of which foundation is it built upon.
Tim Winders:And the reason I'm going to go back to some ego and some
Tim Winders:things you brought up earlier.
Tim Winders:I realized that I was fairly ego driven and.
Tim Winders:When I hear people say They grew up or they were had a not good enough mindset.
Tim Winders:Not this Hope this comes across.
Tim Winders:Okay.
Tim Winders:I had the opposite problem.
Tim Winders:Maybe we'll call it delusional.
Tim Winders:I thought I was more than good enough and I think there's
Tim Winders:issues with both, by the way.
Tim Winders:Okay.
Tim Winders:There's
Tim Winders:obviously problems there and all that kind of stuff.
Tim Winders:I think, but I believe people that had it easy.
Tim Winders:I believe I had an easy growing up.
Tim Winders:My parents were together, good home.
Tim Winders:we did the holiday church thing, not necessarily the every,
Tim Winders:and all that kind of stuff.
Tim Winders:But later in life, Things got hard and when I picked up fire knights and started
Tim Winders:reading it Um for my friend recommended and I was reading the beginning of it
Tim Winders:And I was kind of i'm sure you're this way when you read books You're kind of
Tim Winders:reading it going is this something i'm going to keep reading whatever like
Tim Winders:that, we didn't know each other But then I got to your story And I went, okay,
Tim Winders:this is a guy I got to talk to more.
Tim Winders:So there was a period of time in your life where it got hard either
Tim Winders:by your own doing or whatever.
Tim Winders:To me, I don't want to say it's irrelevant.
Tim Winders:Some people will try to make things like, Oh, it was his fault or whatever.
Tim Winders:I don't buy that.
Tim Winders:I think it's just part of the
Tim Winders:journey.
Tim Winders:So, so give us a little bit of.
Tim Winders:Kind of how we got into that stage and this will set us up to move into Kind
Tim Winders:of the second half of our interview here, which is going to be around fire
Tim Winders:nights and all that But this is our bridge that we're going over here.
Tim Winders:And it's probably Got a lot to it, but let's maybe hit I don't want to say the
Tim Winders:high points, that sounds superficial.
Burke Atkerson:Let's hit the low points.
Tim Winders:Let's let the, let's let the Holy Spirit just guide you.
Tim Winders:How about that, Bert?
Tim Winders:Just, what do we need to do as we transition into this deeper,
Tim Winders:this conversation of how it, how this impacts men in general?
Burke Atkerson:Yeah.
Burke Atkerson:if any kids are listening, you may want to press pause.
Burke Atkerson:I struggled with, I saw a stat recently that 98 percent of men
Burke Atkerson:have looked at pornography in the last six months at some point.
Burke Atkerson:so that doesn't mean addiction.
Burke Atkerson:That doesn't mean, compulsively, whatever it could have been, they
Burke Atkerson:came across, I don't know, but it's a staggering statistic and
Burke Atkerson:that's in the book, I believe.
Burke Atkerson:so it, it might be a year old now,
Burke Atkerson:but.
Burke Atkerson:And I think it's 65 percent of women.
Burke Atkerson:So this is a very human issue.
Burke Atkerson:This isn't just men and it's not just me, which is what I thought as a kid.
Burke Atkerson:I think I first found porn on the internet when I was nine years
Burke Atkerson:old, cause I was just old enough.
Burke Atkerson:Google had just coming out, had just, come out or whatever it was like Google.
Burke Atkerson:And, And I had enough unsupervised access to a computer and my parents,
Burke Atkerson:it wasn't even on their radar that something like that could exist.
Burke Atkerson:I don't think, it wasn't an error of theirs necessarily.
Burke Atkerson:It's just life, it's at rain.
Burke Atkerson:And, I, it ended up being my escapism of choice, my weapon of
Burke Atkerson:choice for decades and, When I was 21, everyone found out about it.
Burke Atkerson:It was my first big D day discovery day where shit hit the fan and I
Burke Atkerson:didn't have anything to hide anymore.
Burke Atkerson:that was 2008, 2007, actually it was 2007 and
Burke Atkerson:I tried everything since then.
Burke Atkerson:So up till then, I.
Burke Atkerson:I did what I could to hold the beach ball under the water, but now everything's out.
Burke Atkerson:And I love, it was my first taste of grace, actually, when everybody
Burke Atkerson:found out and I had a two or three guys that didn't abandon me in it.
Burke Atkerson:And they said, Hey, that's okay.
Burke Atkerson:And they stayed friends.
Burke Atkerson:One guy actually ended up discipling me from that.
Burke Atkerson:conversation where everything just came out and it was freedom and life
Burke Atkerson:for me not to be hiding anymore.
Burke Atkerson:And since then i've not lived in any kind of hiddenness.
Burke Atkerson:I love Staying in the light if anything happens where I feel like I crossed
Burke Atkerson:a line it's not 24 hours later till i'm in conversation with somebody and
Burke Atkerson:that could be any kind of line, right?
Burke Atkerson:Not just acting out with pornography but from 21 until My big crash seven
Burke Atkerson:years ago, so it was over a decade.
Burke Atkerson:I think it was 12 years I tried everything.
Burke Atkerson:I listened to every sermon on the topic I could find.
Burke Atkerson:I listened to every podcast.
Burke Atkerson:I read every book I could on, on the topic of, men's issues, pornography,
Burke Atkerson:addiction, name it, went to workshops, went to retreats, and none of it actually,
Burke Atkerson:changed anything at a heart level for me.
Burke Atkerson:I was still stuck.
Burke Atkerson:I was still finding myself making compulsive decisions, around pornography.
Burke Atkerson:And so all of it cumulated to where when we were on the field, we'd
Burke Atkerson:been missionaries for almost seven years in South America, in Uruguay.
Burke Atkerson:And we were burned out, and my marriage was dysfunctional, and my ministry team
Burke Atkerson:was dysfunctional, and I was traveling.
Burke Atkerson:I was jet lagged.
Burke Atkerson:It was like this perfect storm of all these events collided.
Burke Atkerson:And I met this girl that responded to every word I said.
Burke Atkerson:And she's beautiful, British accent.
Burke Atkerson:and she treated me like she hung on to every word and it was a drug for me.
Burke Atkerson:I couldn't walk away from her.
Burke Atkerson:I crossed lines with her that evening.
Burke Atkerson:and it nearly cost my marriage, but
Burke Atkerson:it all stems from that same loneliness issue.
Burke Atkerson:and escapism issue that the pornography addiction was born in.
Burke Atkerson:So it was the same compulsive reaction to So for example, when I look at When I
Burke Atkerson:had looked at pornography, I would look for eye contact with women for years.
Burke Atkerson:or for hours.
Burke Atkerson:I would literally search for a woman gazing into a guy's eyes.
Burke Atkerson:Because I wanted to feel seen, I didn't have that language around it yet.
Burke Atkerson:but there was something in me that needed to feel desired, that
Burke Atkerson:needed to feel loved, that wasn't being met in these other places, A,
Burke Atkerson:because my heart couldn't hold love.
Burke Atkerson:And that's where addiction comes from.
Burke Atkerson:But, B because I, all these dysfunctional relationships in my life,
Burke Atkerson:chicken or the egg.
Burke Atkerson:all this, so the same thing I found in this woman who is paying
Burke Atkerson:attention to me, look in me in the eyes, Hanging on to every word.
Burke Atkerson:I hadn't gotten that kind of treatment from my wife because of our own
Burke Atkerson:dysfunction, which, my dysfunction was adding to her issues and her
Burke Atkerson:dysfunction was adding to mine.
Burke Atkerson:It was just that whole thing.
Burke Atkerson:What I say is our wounds bleed in to each other's wounds in marriage.
Burke Atkerson:And, that was very much happening.
Burke Atkerson:All of this cumulated to getting pulled off the field, actually, I
Burke Atkerson:called the navigators and confessed.
Burke Atkerson:I said, Hey, I crossed some lines.
Burke Atkerson:I talked to my wife.
Burke Atkerson:Also, I said, Hey, this is what I did.
Burke Atkerson:Detailed description, way too many details.
Burke Atkerson:This is what happened and broke her heart.
Burke Atkerson:And we had a week to move from Uruguay, and to move to Colorado.
Burke Atkerson:I don't remember the original question, but I think, this whole issue of
Burke Atkerson:loneliness and pornography and addiction couldn't be met with all the tools.
Burke Atkerson:It couldn't be fixed with all the tools I found.
Burke Atkerson:I memorized all the verses I could around it over and over.
Burke Atkerson:Shame.
Burke Atkerson:I'd cover myself in shame.
Burke Atkerson:Friends would cover me in shame.
Burke Atkerson:I had accountability groups for decades.
Burke Atkerson:nothing actually worked until I began to learn how to have healthy friendships.
Burke Atkerson:A, I had to relearn how to relate with my wife, right?
Burke Atkerson:That's a given.
Burke Atkerson:But also, I really needed to relearn how to relate with men.
Burke Atkerson:And that's been core to my healing.
Burke Atkerson:So these fire nights has been the context for that to happen where I'll just light
Burke Atkerson:a fire and invite some guys into it.
Burke Atkerson:I'll open up my heart and it's safe there.
Burke Atkerson:My heart was never safe with men before, or if it was, I didn't feel safe.
Burke Atkerson:And now all of a sudden I have that capacity and it's it's been the most
Burke Atkerson:healing thing in my life and the most healing thing from addiction.
Tim Winders:So how does, all right, so the great lead into, cause I've been
Tim Winders:waiting, I've been about to interrupt you a couple of times to go back to something
Tim Winders:you brought up at the beginning, which is that you had felt as if you were not good
Tim Winders:enough And I think it's difficult to have relationships with anyone spouse other
Tim Winders:men fathers mothers Whatever if one thinks they're not good enough I also think it's
Tim Winders:difficult to have a relationship with people if you think you're too good, too.
Tim Winders:that's my story We won't go there But if you're not good enough And
Tim Winders:you and I are attempting to have conversation and all of that.
Tim Winders:How does that, I know you were probably trying to prove something
Tim Winders:with this missionary thing that you were going through that process.
Tim Winders:And, and I don't want to leave.
Tim Winders:I want to ask a question about your wife in just a second.
Tim Winders:Talk about how the not good enough, which has come up a number of times.
Tim Winders:We just recently had an
Tim Winders:interview with Alan Morris, extremely successful real estate developer
Tim Winders:out of Miami at the age of 47.
Tim Winders:He said, we were all living this dream, this thought that we're not good enough.
Tim Winders:So talk about not good enough and how it feeds into the story.
Tim Winders:You just told
Burke Atkerson:Yeah, absolutely.
Burke Atkerson:It's core.
Burke Atkerson:the fuel behind any kind of addiction is shame, and so there's things that
Burke Atkerson:will get you to that addiction, right?
Burke Atkerson:But the fuel that keeps it spiraling is shame.
Burke Atkerson:it is the most Amazing tactic of the enemy.
Burke Atkerson:It's the most covert because a lot of times shame is wrapped up in scripture.
Burke Atkerson:Shame is disguised.
Burke Atkerson:It's really the sheep and it's the wolf and sheep's clothing of.
Burke Atkerson:All of the enemy's tactics.
Burke Atkerson:It's the most, what's that word?
Burke Atkerson:It's covert.
Burke Atkerson:I don't know the other word to use.
Burke Atkerson:somebody would act out and then instantly they're feeling it in their body.
Burke Atkerson:They're feeling shame.
Burke Atkerson:They also have that dopamine drop, and it feels physically like shame,
Burke Atkerson:or they stayed up late and they wake up the next day tired and
Burke Atkerson:they're just covered in shame.
Burke Atkerson:Or they woke up and they have, they're doing this, the walk of shame.
Burke Atkerson:They literally call that the walk of shame.
Burke Atkerson:So it's a big part of it, but it's, I would say it's at the root of it.
Burke Atkerson:So there's two parts of it, relationships and shame that have
Burke Atkerson:to do with, porn addiction or sex addiction, because sex addiction is
Burke Atkerson:categorically an intimacy disorder.
Burke Atkerson:So we have to learn how to relate.
Burke Atkerson:What shame ever since day one and this isn't a theological argument
Burke Atkerson:I'm not talking about arguing about Genesis, but ever since day
Burke Atkerson:one Adam and Eve ate the fruit
Burke Atkerson:they were covered in shame and they did three things they hid they blamed
Burke Atkerson:And they covered up so they put masks on And so they use fig leaves.
Burke Atkerson:We use masks.
Burke Atkerson:We use, I use humor.
Burke Atkerson:I use,
Tim Winders:social media,
Burke Atkerson:social media, expertise, competency.
Burke Atkerson:Competency has been a big mask of mine.
Burke Atkerson:Look at me.
Burke Atkerson:I am important because I'm competent at something.
Burke Atkerson:these three things are what shame induces in us as humans across the board.
Burke Atkerson:So throughout my life, the hiding.
Burke Atkerson:involved in anything negative I did.
Burke Atkerson:I was raising a Bible belt, culture where, you can talk about the good
Burke Atkerson:things about yourself even, and that's totally fine because pride isn't one
Burke Atkerson:of the bad things in the Bible belt.
Burke Atkerson:but you can't talk about anything negative or weak.
Burke Atkerson:or addiction or struggles or that just doesn't exist for
Burke Atkerson:the most part in the culture.
Burke Atkerson:So I would hide.
Tim Winders:isn't that because primarily religion, I'm going to, I'm
Tim Winders:going to separate something out here.
Tim Winders:Religions primary goal is shame and control, shame and control.
Tim Winders:We don't see that on their billboards.
Tim Winders:That's not what they, Put out in front of churches or anything somewhat.
Tim Winders:I actually saw one earlier talking about sin and I went, that's not
Tim Winders:what that means, but whatever.
Tim Winders:Okay.
Tim Winders:But so you are in an environment.
Tim Winders:I would say this Bert that probably Had you not been in that church environment?
Tim Winders:I don't want to say you would have been fine.
Tim Winders:I think we also have to deal with that stuff.
Tim Winders:But I think you had a double whammy because not only in that bible belt You
Tim Winders:had it baked in but then you went out on the mission Oh And you were, we're going
Tim Winders:to talk about fire in a little while.
Tim Winders:You were just pouring gasoline on that fire.
Tim Winders:Weren't you,
Burke Atkerson:Absolutely.
Burke Atkerson:Absolutely.
Burke Atkerson:And it was amazing.
Burke Atkerson:I felt like I'd prepared my whole life to be a missionary and I
Burke Atkerson:got overseas and I sucked at it
Burke Atkerson:and it's exact, it was like just covered in shame.
Burke Atkerson:After a year and a half, I experienced a season of depression for a few months,
Burke Atkerson:which I've never experienced in my life.
Burke Atkerson:But what was happening is that the two year mark, we were going to come back
Burke Atkerson:on furlough and do some fundraising.
Burke Atkerson:And I was covered in shame, which led me to depression and isolation I didn't
Burke Atkerson:have all these amazing, miraculous stories that I hoped to have to share
Burke Atkerson:with our supporters to tell them I was important and worth their money.
Tim Winders:hadn't raised the dead or anything like that.
Burke Atkerson:I tried.
Burke Atkerson:I
Tim Winders:what else can you say about how your marriage was saved and
Tim Winders:how you are still together after that?
Tim Winders:I didn't even use the word transgression that just you screwed up, man.
Tim Winders:You messed up.
Tim Winders:Okay.
Tim Winders:Can we say that you screwed
Tim Winders:up?
Tim Winders:All right.
Tim Winders:So after that you messed up, you said you, you were Upfront
Tim Winders:with your wife and y'all are
Tim Winders:still together.
Tim Winders:I'm struggling with processing that truthfully.
Tim Winders:So what can you tell me about that?
Burke Atkerson:I'm amazed with my wife.
Burke Atkerson:she had an out and I told her you have an out, this is it.
Burke Atkerson:this is the most biblical out you could find.
Burke Atkerson:And she didn't take it.
Burke Atkerson:And more than that,
Burke Atkerson:I claim full responsibility.
Burke Atkerson:This is my doing, I got us here.
Burke Atkerson:Yeah, it was a perfect storm of events, but these are my decisions.
Burke Atkerson:I'll own that.
Burke Atkerson:She owned it too.
Burke Atkerson:And that saved our marriage.
Burke Atkerson:Because she said, I had a part to play with, in this.
Burke Atkerson:And I, what I don't mean is she didn't have enough sex with me.
Burke Atkerson:That's not what I mean.
Burke Atkerson:And that's what we were taught.
Burke Atkerson:And that's what's taught from the pulpit a lot.
Burke Atkerson:And even overseas, somebody said, we've been overseas for 40 years and
Burke Atkerson:the secret to having a successful ministry is just have sex with
Burke Atkerson:your husband as often as he wants.
Burke Atkerson:We literally heard those messages as if that fixes issues.
Tim Winders:Did they have a scripture for that,
Tim Winders:Was it, did they have a scripture for that?
Tim Winders:I can't find it.
Tim Winders:I've read through the Bible.
Tim Winders:I cannot find that scripture.
Burke Atkerson:yeah, I've looked for it, but I fully, I had subscribed to
Burke Atkerson:that side of things and we had counselors that kind of pushed us down that path,
Burke Atkerson:but she claimed responsibility for her, baggage that she brought into the
Burke Atkerson:marriage that had nothing to do with sex.
Burke Atkerson:But it did have to do with hearts and it had to do with the way we're relating.
Burke Atkerson:we came back and we met with Mike, Michael Cusick.
Burke Atkerson:he wrote surfing for God, phenomenal book on the topic of sex addiction.
Burke Atkerson:It's from a Christian lens.
Burke Atkerson:and.
Burke Atkerson:he's a phenomenally skilled counselor.
Burke Atkerson:So we met with him for two weeks for an intensive and at the end of
Burke Atkerson:the two weeks, he gave us feedback.
Burke Atkerson:He gave me, two hours of all my dysfunction and he drew it on a
Burke Atkerson:whiteboard so I could actually see it.
Burke Atkerson:And that gave me a roadmap for what to work on over the next several years.
Burke Atkerson:he also did that for my wife.
Burke Atkerson:And then he did it for our marriage and he, it was a whole hour session just
Burke Atkerson:talking about our marriage and he drew it out for us, and explained, seven different
Burke Atkerson:layers of dysfunction, not of a team, but of that, that our marriage had brought
Burke Atkerson:or that our marriage contained and she owned all of it from the beginning of.
Burke Atkerson:when I broke her heart and she didn't talk to me for a week to today, she still
Burke Atkerson:claims responsibility for, she had, I'm not, I don't want to tell her story, but,
Burke Atkerson:she had some stuff from her childhood and the way she was raised that was
Burke Atkerson:continuing to keep her heart from mine.
Burke Atkerson:And so if you're familiar with attachment styles, she hadn't avoided
Burke Atkerson:an attachment style throughout her life saying emotions are scary.
Burke Atkerson:Emotions are used as manipulation.
Burke Atkerson:So I'm very emotional.
Burke Atkerson:I'm a feeler.
Burke Atkerson:so I, I would share my emotions and she would feel like I'm manipulating
Burke Atkerson:her, so stuff like that, we're able to actually work through and connect
Burke Atkerson:and build healthy attachments.
Burke Atkerson:And so after about 3 years, we actually took a 2 year pause from sex.
Burke Atkerson:And, we didn't want it to be two years.
Burke Atkerson:I didn't want it to be two days, but, it, that's how much time it took for her to
Burke Atkerson:feel safe in relationship with me again.
Burke Atkerson:And
Burke Atkerson:she, she said over and over, she said, I didn't, you didn't lose my trust, Burke.
Burke Atkerson:You never had my trust.
Burke Atkerson:And I remember three years into the process, we're cuddling, not
Burke Atkerson:too close, but just laying in bed, touching it, skin on skin a little bit.
Burke Atkerson:And she whispered to me, she said, Burke, I trust you now.
Burke Atkerson:And that's huge because literally that never existed in our marriage.
Burke Atkerson:So we're not just rebuilding something broken.
Burke Atkerson:We're building something new.
Tim Winders:What's
Burke Atkerson:she's.
Burke Atkerson:Amazing.
Tim Winders:What just came to mind was this question, and I don't know
Tim Winders:why I asked this question, but I asked you if you grew up easy or hard.
Tim Winders:Sounds like she grew up a little bit harder than you did.
Tim Winders:My wife and I are very similar.
Tim Winders:I grew up easy.
Tim Winders:She grew up hard.
Tim Winders:Family, younger brother died of leukemia, all that kind of stuff.
Tim Winders:and I realized that has, she may answer something similar to what
Tim Winders:your wife said about, trust thing.
Tim Winders:She didn't trust men is what it was.
Tim Winders:And I was just lumped into that category.
Tim Winders:So I've spent most of our time together attempting to build trust.
Tim Winders:You had a situation where you obviously
Burke Atkerson:Broke it.
Tim Winders:broke it or, and it wasn't there, but whatever.
Tim Winders:But,
Burke Atkerson:I don't know.
Tim Winders:yeah.
Tim Winders:so one thing I'm excited about, I'm gonna go back to this cause I'm going to hammer
Burke Atkerson:Thank you.
Tim Winders:You're now in the mission field that you saw at seven years old.
Tim Winders:It's been an
Tim Winders:interesting winding path, but you see, I've always considered
Tim Winders:business to be one of the most powerful mission fields because it's
Tim Winders:biblical because it's in the Bible.
Tim Winders:And I'm not against any of these that are full time ministry, but I'm getting
Tim Winders:a little bit fatigued with some of the stuff I see there, and I'm trying not to
Tim Winders:bash things and all that, but I see it.
Tim Winders:Being part of the problem instead of the solution with
Tim Winders:some of these things we're doing.
Tim Winders:Because if things were happening in those buildings that we call small c
Tim Winders:churches, then there wouldn't be the need for someone like you to go in
Tim Winders:your backyard, light a fire, and invite
Tim Winders:three, four, five guys to sit around.
Tim Winders:And finally, Get some soul healing and interaction.
Tim Winders:We should be able to do that in an atmosphere that we would call church.
Tim Winders:So how's that
Tim Winders:for a transition into
Tim Winders:let's talk about how, you were in ministry, you were the guy, you were
Tim Winders:at the top of the food chain and
Burke Atkerson:Food
Tim Winders:missions.
Tim Winders:You were the.
Tim Winders:I I don't
Tim Winders:agree with
Burke Atkerson:apostle.
Burke Atkerson:let's call it a super apostle.
Tim Winders:the Bible school we went to, it wasn't like they put
Tim Winders:the chart up and said, okay, all you people are down here, real estate
Tim Winders:investors, you're right above lawyers.
Tim Winders:But then everybody else is above you.
Tim Winders:and up
Tim Winders:to that point.
Burke Atkerson:That's a bad word.
Tim Winders:yeah.
Tim Winders:That's bad too.
Tim Winders:So, so what, talk about that transition.
Tim Winders:You came back seven years ago, obviously your turmoil, financial probably is a
Tim Winders:mess, your relationship, you're working on healing there, all of that stuff.
Tim Winders:And then somewhere along the way.
Tim Winders:You said, okay, I need to work on some relationships.
Tim Winders:And I do want to say all this is in the book.
Tim Winders:So we're going to drive people to the book, but we've got about 15 minutes max.
Tim Winders:So let's, uh, let's keep an eye on our time.
Tim Winders:And I want us to mention the book a little bit before we finish up.
Burke Atkerson:Let's do it.
Burke Atkerson:Tim.
Burke Atkerson:I feel like we're cut from the same cloth.
Burke Atkerson:I love these conversations.
Burke Atkerson:We have the same mentality and, I guess value system and maybe even theology.
Burke Atkerson:we're so aligned with this, man, really ministry.
Burke Atkerson:That's the question, right?
Burke Atkerson:What's ministry look like?
Burke Atkerson:Is that kind of what I'm hearing you say if I were to summarize it so crudely?
Tim Winders:when this thing we call ministry that people think it looks
Tim Winders:a certain way You go off to another country you find out maybe it doesn't
Tim Winders:you come back home and you find out It's in your backyard around a fire
Burke Atkerson:yeah, and it's with me, if I'm listing a house, or if I'm renting
Burke Atkerson:out a house, or if I'm meeting with the tenant, or if I'm meeting with the client,
Burke Atkerson:there, the Father is present with me, just like Brother Lawrence washing dishes.
Burke Atkerson:The Father's right there with me and this is holy work.
Burke Atkerson:There's another phrase I love, talking about fire nights is that safe places
Burke Atkerson:are, actually I just forgot the phrase, safe places are holy places.
Burke Atkerson:Safe places are holy places.
Burke Atkerson:I want to create safe places for men and that is ministry.
Burke Atkerson:So I love C.
Burke Atkerson:S.
Burke Atkerson:Lewis.
Burke Atkerson:I'm sure every sermon you've heard quotes him at some point,
Burke Atkerson:but I disagree with him on one.
Burke Atkerson:Point in the Narnia series where he talks about Aslan.
Burke Atkerson:Do you know what I'm talking about?
Burke Atkerson:He says, he is, he's not safe, but he's good, and God is wild
Burke Atkerson:and he's capable of anything.
Burke Atkerson:He is phenomenally powerful and meek at the same time.
Burke Atkerson:Balanced with wisdom.
Burke Atkerson:what that is, that's a description of masculinity right there.
Burke Atkerson:Power, meek, balanced with wisdom.
Burke Atkerson:so that means it's not abusive.
Burke Atkerson:Which means.
Burke Atkerson:He's safe
Burke Atkerson:and he creates such a safe place for me.
Burke Atkerson:So when I mess up or when I've messed up, what I, what shame was telling me,
Burke Atkerson:the father was doing, was saying is, Oh, Burke, how could you not again?
Burke Atkerson:When are you going to get past this?
Burke Atkerson:When are you going to man up?
Burke Atkerson:When are you going to figure it out?
Burke Atkerson:I'm at the end of my rope.
Burke Atkerson:that's what shame wants me to think God's saying.
Burke Atkerson:he's right here next to me, wraps his arm around me, and he's Of course, Burke.
Burke Atkerson:Look at your marriage, or look at your friendships.
Burke Atkerson:Look at, the stress you had throughout the day, and this is
Burke Atkerson:the only coping mechanism you have.
Burke Atkerson:what else would you expect?
Burke Atkerson:And so I don't mean to lighten that or to say it, it doesn't matter because our
Burke Atkerson:actions are, our decisions do matter, but his arm is just right there around us.
Burke Atkerson:Sorry.
Burke Atkerson:This is really roundabout answer, isn't it?
Burke Atkerson:So what I find is he's with us all the time and that's where ministry happens.
Burke Atkerson:We could be alone, we could be with somebody, we could be filling out an Excel
Burke Atkerson:spreadsheet alone, sitting in the office and the father's right there with us.
Burke Atkerson:And he's saying, man, this is my son in whom I'm well pleased.
Burke Atkerson:I can be putting the kids down to bed at night and I could be aware of his
Burke Atkerson:nearness and I could be unaware of it.
Burke Atkerson:If I'm aware of it, it helps me return to the present.
Burke Atkerson:Or maybe I have to return to the present in order to be aware of it.
Burke Atkerson:Chicken and the egg, but it also becomes ministry.
Burke Atkerson:Cause his presence ministers to me and it overflows from there.
Burke Atkerson:so then when I'm with my kids, if I'm aware of the father's nearness
Burke Atkerson:and all of a sudden this isn't just putting the kids to sleep, this
Burke Atkerson:is a chance to love on him deeply.
Burke Atkerson:and that's discipleship.
Burke Atkerson:That's life changing stuff.
Burke Atkerson:same thing if I'm meeting with a client.
Burke Atkerson:I don't mean to oversimplify it,
Burke Atkerson:but ministry really is, there's two parts.
Burke Atkerson:where the Father's, you know, cause Jesus said, I'm doing what the Father's doing.
Burke Atkerson:I'm saying what the father's saying.
Burke Atkerson:So that required Jesus to be attentive to what the father was doing.
Burke Atkerson:So if we're not aware of his presence, how are we going to
Burke Atkerson:be aware of what he's saying?
Burke Atkerson:If we're not present with ourself, how are we going to be present with him?
Burke Atkerson:So really, so much of it starts in the body.
Burke Atkerson:And that's what I do in, in, with soul care coaching with men.
Burke Atkerson:I help them return to the body.
Burke Atkerson:And then presence expands from that space.
Burke Atkerson:How am I going to do ministry?
Burke Atkerson:Unless it's just ego and just head.
Burke Atkerson:How am I going to do ministry if I'm not fully present?
Burke Atkerson:And I'm not present with the Father?
Burke Atkerson:Then it's this overflow thing.
Burke Atkerson:It's this thing where I could just show up and be present
Burke Atkerson:with men, and ministry happens.
Burke Atkerson:I could just show up and be present with a client, and ministry happens.
Burke Atkerson:But if I'm trying to do something, which I did for years, And i'm
Burke Atkerson:trying to teach a verse or i'm trying to teach a concept i'm trying to
Burke Atkerson:challenge a guy because that's what god wants me to do and that's ministry.
Burke Atkerson:then nothing actually happens nothing substantial
Tim Winders:Or you're just copying somebody else or you're
Tim Winders:doing a program or I love one of the things you said in the book.
Tim Winders:It's Hey, when you're sitting around the fire, don't do a teaching.
Tim Winders:This is not a Bible study.
Tim Winders:This is
Burke Atkerson:Yeah
Tim Winders:Hey man, which scripture let's go.
Tim Winders:Let's pick a part of scripture, man.
Tim Winders:What do you think?
Tim Winders:And, I'm beginning to get to the place where I think that people
Tim Winders:have shared enough sermons and teachings out there that maybe
Tim Winders:everybody should stop for a while.
Burke Atkerson:Amen, we don't have a knowledge issue.
Tim Winders:No.
Tim Winders:So we've
Burke Atkerson:a relationship issue
Tim Winders:we got, or going back to what you said and awareness to
Tim Winders:be aware that should the father is in your presence at all time.
Tim Winders:And I'll take it one more word that helps with my personality.
Tim Winders:Be aware that 24 seven.
Tim Winders:The father is in your presence.
Tim Winders:You're in the father's presence and then allow the father to operate and work
Tim Winders:through your life with whatever you're doing, if it's washing dishes, if it's
Tim Winders:a real estate deal, if you're, whatever it is, allow, I did a big kingdom of
Tim Winders:God study for a couple of years when I was coming out of Bible school.
Tim Winders:And I wanted to understand the kingdom of God for me personally, and after
Tim Winders:going through 104 scriptures and picking them apart, everything that referenced
Tim Winders:kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven, Bert, my definition is it's mine.
Tim Winders:Okay.
Tim Winders:I'm not, you don't have to take this if you don't want to, but for
Tim Winders:me, the kingdom of God is wherever God is allowed to rule and reign.
Tim Winders:Now, some
Tim Winders:people get really uncomfortable with that and I'm okay with that.
Tim Winders:Again, it's my definition, not yours, because I know
Tim Winders:my personality will, would not allow him at times,
Burke Atkerson:This is my definition.
Burke Atkerson:That's what i'm talking about.
Burke Atkerson:We are cut from the same cloth the way i've always described it is it's wherever
Burke Atkerson:Someone is submitted to the father
Burke Atkerson:And that's exactly what you're saying.
Burke Atkerson:He's allowed to reign
Tim Winders:period.
Burke Atkerson:that submission we're on the same page here.
Burke Atkerson:It's amazing.
Tim Winders:cool.
Tim Winders:All right.
Tim Winders:Well, tell me.
Burke Atkerson:the kingdom of God.
Tim Winders:so somewhere along the way, you started gathering
Tim Winders:with guys around a fire.
Tim Winders:I do want to make reference.
Tim Winders:I think the week before this episode releases, I interviewed a guy
Tim Winders:by the name of Leroy Height, who owns a company called Cutting Edge
Tim Winders:Firewood out of Atlanta, Georgia.
Tim Winders:He's got a 30, 000 foot warehouse and they do firewood.
Tim Winders:And he spoke about fire.
Tim Winders:He's a spiritual guy too, but we spoke about physical
Tim Winders:fire in such a spiritual way.
Tim Winders:So we're going to I'm going to, these episodes are going to come back to back.
Tim Winders:So we've got cutting edge firewood, Leroy, people should have already listened to
Tim Winders:that, and then we've got the the beauty of what can happen around a fire, because he
Tim Winders:talked about just, you can't be in a rush when you got around a fire, there's the
Tim Winders:smells, there's the, he spoke about, cause he, they sell high end firewood, that's
Tim Winders:kiln dry, they bring it in from Africa, all this kind of stuff.
Tim Winders:so talk about.
Tim Winders:That presence of what goes on around the fire here in our
Tim Winders:last few minutes that we've got.
Burke Atkerson:there's a million things I could say about this.
Burke Atkerson:We as humans, we need to be seen, safe, soothed.
Burke Atkerson:And secure.
Burke Atkerson:And so you've heard attachment theory unpacked neurologically.
Burke Atkerson:There's a lot of research developmentally.
Burke Atkerson:There's a lot of research and they'll do brain scans and anywhere from babies to
Burke Atkerson:grown adults and these 3, these 4 things are the building blocks for healthy.
Burke Atkerson:emotions for us to be healthy humans.
Burke Atkerson:It's absolutely required across the board and all of our relationships
Burke Atkerson:that are going to thrive.
Burke Atkerson:what happens around a fire is a deep soothing that allows
Burke Atkerson:us to return to the present.
Burke Atkerson:and actually the whole act of soothing, or.
Burke Atkerson:Regulating or co regulating if there's another person involved in this case.
Burke Atkerson:We're around a fire We're co regulating together around a fire and the fire's
Burke Atkerson:helping usher it So even from a counseling or psychological perspective, there's a
Burke Atkerson:lot of science that backs this up john eldridge he said there's three things
Burke Atkerson:that a man can stare indefinitely into and one is a body of water One's a
Burke Atkerson:fire and one's a baby's face but what happens Is serotonin is being released,
Burke Atkerson:in our brain and it soothes out the stress in our brains, the stress in our
Burke Atkerson:bodies is soothed when we experience serotonin or a higher level of serotonin
Burke Atkerson:receptors responding in our brains.
Burke Atkerson:so fire does that.
Burke Atkerson:We get to sit around and it's so sensory.
Burke Atkerson:you're listening to the crackle and I just have a freaking gas fireplace right now.
Burke Atkerson:So all we get is the dance, right?
Burke Atkerson:the flames dance.
Burke Atkerson:but it's so beautiful.
Burke Atkerson:it still brings you in, even though it's not nearly as good as a wood fireplace.
Burke Atkerson:with wood, you see the transformation of the logs, and that's such
Burke Atkerson:a symbol in and of itself, as we're together, what's happening.
Burke Atkerson:And the other thing is, when somebody shares the crap going
Burke Atkerson:on in their life, shame wants to say, nobody wants to hear that.
Burke Atkerson:Keep that hidden.
Burke Atkerson:Shame wants to say, that's ugly.
Burke Atkerson:And they're going to reject you if you open up too much.
Burke Atkerson:and so what I like to think about is these ashes are like that shame thing,
Burke Atkerson:because the guy's sitting around the fire, what are they looking at?
Burke Atkerson:Yeah.
Burke Atkerson:They might notice the ashes occasionally, but they're actually looking at the
Burke Atkerson:light, the darkness doesn't define you.
Burke Atkerson:The light in you does the ashes of your story.
Burke Atkerson:Don't define you.
Burke Atkerson:But the light does, and that's the Spirit of God in you.
Burke Atkerson:the other thing that I love about fire is throughout scripture, so Jew, a lot of
Burke Atkerson:the Jewish tradition, when they see fire, they equate it with the presence of God.
Burke Atkerson:that's a deep, culturally rich symbol for them.
Burke Atkerson:And that goes back, the pillar of fire.
Burke Atkerson:It goes to, Elisha or Elijah, with, against the gods of Baal or whatever
Burke Atkerson:the prophets of Baal and the flame comes down and just consumes.
Burke Atkerson:And it's so many times throughout scripture, but it's so symbolic of
Burke Atkerson:the father being present with them and leading them and with them.
Burke Atkerson:So it's presence.
Burke Atkerson:what I love too, is that picture of Jesus cooking fish.
Burke Atkerson:By the fire for Peter after Peter had this huge failure denied him three times
Burke Atkerson:and gave up on ministry and went back to fishing and Jesus invites him to a meal
Burke Atkerson:over a fire and I think symbolically Peter would have taken that a it's
Burke Atkerson:phenomenal because his best friends back.
Burke Atkerson:His savior's back.
Burke Atkerson:But there's also this culturally rich symbol of the father
Burke Atkerson:being present with them.
Burke Atkerson:It was this re welcoming, and saying, you haven't screwed things up too bad.
Burke Atkerson:You're still welcome here on the fire.
Burke Atkerson:You're still welcome here in my presence.
Burke Atkerson:And it's just so all throughout scripture, you see it.
Burke Atkerson:but the fire is a phenomenal symbol and it's this thing
Burke Atkerson:that's also deeply masculine.
Burke Atkerson:I have three daughters and I have two sons and I have a third son on the way.
Burke Atkerson:My daughters never care about the fire unless there's marshmallows.
Burke Atkerson:My sons are drawn to it like bugs to a light.
Burke Atkerson:They cannot.
Burke Atkerson:Like they're captivated by the fire and there's something deeply
Burke Atkerson:masculine in there genetically.
Burke Atkerson:That's calling out something in us.
Tim Winders:the thing I love about the fire analogy is that you
Tim Winders:really, especially if it's wood, we actually have a gas fire here
Tim Winders:where we're at in the Black Hills, because you can't, we can't burn.
Tim Winders:and I need to connect you with Leroy.
Tim Winders:I think the two of y'all need to have a communication because he's
Tim Winders:anyway, it'd be really cool.
Tim Winders:So I did talk to him about the
Tim Winders:upcoming interview here.
Tim Winders:You can't.
Tim Winders:Quickly build a fire.
Tim Winders:You can't be impatient.
Tim Winders:It's one of the reasons I like RVing.
Tim Winders:I can't get in a hurry Which a lot of things in my life I get in a hurry
Tim Winders:on and so I love the thought of that We're butting up against our time here
Tim Winders:berk But what i'd love for you to do is real quick Tell people about the
Tim Winders:book fire knights who needs to get it and where they could find it And then
Tim Winders:i've got one more question before we wrap up in and jump off here We may
Tim Winders:need to do a part two at some point.
Tim Winders:But you know Tell us about the book real quick, Fire Knights,
Tim Winders:Forging Brotherhood That Heals.
Tim Winders:I
Burke Atkerson:the book really is a call towards connection because the
Burke Atkerson:path of least resistance is isolation.
Burke Atkerson:So if we don't actually move towards connection, it doesn't happen.
Burke Atkerson:so fire nights is giving a model for that, but I'm sure there's.
Burke Atkerson:There's a dozen of you men that are already meeting around fires
Burke Atkerson:or already meeting around with men and somewhere or another that's
Burke Atkerson:rich and full of connections.
Burke Atkerson:So just keep doing that.
Burke Atkerson:If you're meeting around fires, this can be something
Burke Atkerson:supplemental to what you're doing.
Burke Atkerson:This can be something that adds richness to how you guys meet.
Burke Atkerson:it's almost the art of meeting around fire with other men.
Burke Atkerson:But what I'm most concerned about is that people aren't
Burke Atkerson:just sitting alone in isolation.
Burke Atkerson:And so the dedication of the book is to the men who struggle,
Burke Atkerson:you're not alone anymore.
Burke Atkerson:And that phrase, you're not alone anymore, almost makes me want to cry.
Burke Atkerson:Cause most of my life I've been popular and surrounded by people at
Burke Atkerson:times on stage in front of thousands.
Burke Atkerson:And I've lived a very lonely life and I've found I need rich,
Burke Atkerson:deep friendships around me.
Burke Atkerson:So the book is really about that.
Burke Atkerson:and sure there's some of my story.
Burke Atkerson:Sure.
Burke Atkerson:There's a model for it.
Burke Atkerson:but just be moving towards relationship.
Burke Atkerson:If you don't have that kind of stuff in your life, that's where the fire
Burke Atkerson:nights community online comes in.
Burke Atkerson:I think it costs a dollar a month.
Burke Atkerson:and it's a video based app right now.
Burke Atkerson:you can send audios or text messages.
Burke Atkerson:you can send it individually or to the whole group.
Burke Atkerson:and you can do check ins daily or weekly.
Burke Atkerson:And just say, hey, this is where I'm at in my body this week.
Burke Atkerson:Or this is where I'm at in my marriage.
Burke Atkerson:or I'm just feeling really lonely and wish I was dating someone, or whatever.
Burke Atkerson:And it could just be a place to check in.
Burke Atkerson:It could also be a place to celebrate.
Burke Atkerson:but it's about connection.
Burke Atkerson:So if you don't have that going on in your life, start a fire night, or join
Burke Atkerson:the fire nights group, and I would love to get to know you and hear your story,
Tim Winders:think, uh, and
Tim Winders:get the book, get the book,
Burke Atkerson:nights.
Burke Atkerson:net
Tim Winders:Okay.
Tim Winders:Yeah.
Tim Winders:Okay.
Tim Winders:Fireknights.
Tim Winders:net.
Tim Winders:And,
Tim Winders:um, the reason I think the book is valuable is it, I
Tim Winders:don't want to say it's a guide.
Tim Winders:It's not like a how to or anything, but I think it gives the heart.
Tim Winders:Of what one should do in this, it's not a start with this, light the fire
Tim Winders:and make sure there's, you know, it's, it's not that it is the heart of it.
Tim Winders:And I appreciate that.
Tim Winders:And, just get the book.
Tim Winders:If it definitely a man, I don't, women probably not for them maybe,
Tim Winders:but women maybe buy it for your man, get a copy for your man.
Tim Winders:Right.
Burke Atkerson:I've seen that, over half of my sales have been
Burke Atkerson:therapists buying it for their clients.
Tim Winders:interesting.
Tim Winders:I could definitely see that.
Tim Winders:Hey, Burke, we're sick.
Tim Winders:Go create those three words.
Tim Winders:Pick one.
Tim Winders:don't overthink it.
Tim Winders:Seek, go or create and wise.
Tim Winders:My final question and quick wrap up here.
Burke Atkerson:I am, at the core of me, a creator and an artisan.
Burke Atkerson:I don't even think I'm an author.
Burke Atkerson:I'm, I don't think I'm a musician.
Burke Atkerson:Although I was touring, living in a tour bus for a while.
Burke Atkerson:I was, I traveled the world.
Burke Atkerson:I've done photography, productions in the fashion world for about a decade.
Burke Atkerson:on five continents.
Burke Atkerson:so there's a lot of stuff that I've been doing, but ultimately
Burke Atkerson:it comes down to create.
Burke Atkerson:And I realized, Oh, there's something in that's actually a reflection
Burke Atkerson:of the creator who is my father.
Burke Atkerson:and so I just, that stirs something so deep in me.
Burke Atkerson:Thank you, Tim.
Tim Winders:Yeah, create.
Tim Winders:Thank you, Burke.
Tim Winders:Make sure you get ahold of fire nights and connect with Burke.
Tim Winders:Find him.
Tim Winders:maybe even check out the real estate.
Tim Winders:I think that book just came out.
Tim Winders:I think fire nights was almost a year ago or something like that.
Tim Winders:I love this conversation because it fits So well with what we're attempting to
Tim Winders:do here, have people just transform, think differently, not be caught
Tim Winders:up in dogma and things like that.
Tim Winders:So I appreciate you, Bert.
Tim Winders:Thanks for listening in here.
Tim Winders:We've got new episodes on YouTube or your podcast platform every Monday.
Tim Winders:Support us.
Tim Winders:If you'd like to go to seek, go create.
Tim Winders:com forward slash support.
Tim Winders:You can throw some money our way.
Tim Winders:We will accept it and receive it and, love to get that.
Tim Winders:And, I'll just say this until next time, continue being all
Tim Winders:that you were created to be.