Leadership and Faith: Herbert Burns on Transforming Businesses with Biblical Values

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he extended his ministry and took it out into the community.

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So I see too many ministers who were just locked into the pulpit who were

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just locked into the brick and mortar.

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And they actually need to deal with what Jesus did and the disciples did and carry

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their ministry out into the community

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Uh.

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How can biblical principles reshape business ethics and personal growth?

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Join us today on Seek, Go, Create the leadership journey as we welcome Herbert

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Addison Burns, an educational and biblical consultant from Cleveland, Ohio.

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Herbert specializes in fostering manhood and character development

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among at risk youth and provides guidance for faith based businesses

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aiming to operate according to biblical scripture with a legacy rooted in

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faith, including service as a prison chaplain and work with urban youth.

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Herbert shares insights on the powerful impact of integrating

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faith into both education and life.

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And into business, Herbert, welcome to seek, go create.

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Thank you, Tim.

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I'm excited to be here this is a wonderful opportunity to share what

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I have about biblical scripture

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Yeah, very good.

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We're going to have fun with conversations related to that.

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That's what we're all about here at seek, go create.

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Before we launch though, I prepped you a little bit.

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Let's start off with what used to be my icebreaker question, but it's

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got a little bit of depth to it.

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Would you rather answer.

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What do you do or who you are go ahead and choose which one you want to answer as the

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first question And just go into the answer and then i'll jump in in a little bit

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Yeah, well, you know, we talked about this a little bit before we got started.

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So, to be honest and fair about it really is a little bit of both.

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I'm a man who grew up in a strict church.

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My grandfather on my mother's side, my mother's father was a very

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important minister in Cleveland, Ohio.

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He actually started.

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2 churches, 1 was community and me.

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The other 1 was Alan temple.

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And the late Bishop, Richard Allen started that church.

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And the reason why I'm getting to this, because I grew up in a very strict.

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A, and the background, it was the kind of environment that.

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Is a child coming up had to go to Sunday school.

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And then from there, I'm going to pay the service.

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then from there I had to go home and every, every Sunday

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was a Thanksgiving dinner.

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Every Sunday.

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I mean the ham, the rolls, and my mother used to preserve these fruits and she

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made these pies and you couldn't really go out and play until everything was ready.

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know, so and, and when you're done you had to go by yourself and

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play outside with the other kids.

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You couldn't sit around with the adults.

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but my grandfather, When he came to Cleveland, he came from South Carolina.

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He was illiterate.

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He grew up on a sharecropper plantation.

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so 12 kids.

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My mother was the youngest.

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he went to school because he wanted to learn.

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He wanted to be a doctor and a fisherman of men.

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And when he decided to go to school at night gain his literacy skills, he used

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to ask my mother which world was which.

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And, on in life, I guess, fast forward and I really didn't know,

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where I fit into this world.

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I just really, had ignored my background, my strict background.

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But up call that I got, was back in 2000.

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I wanted to go into the ministry.

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And, I was living in Columbus, Ohio at the time.

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I contacted the Ohio Department of Corrections and they took me on.

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They took me through the normal orientation process.

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And most people don't understand this, but a chaplain has a different role.

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A chaplain, although you have a certain faith based affiliation,

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but you're servicing people from other faith based groups.

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And you have to find a common thread that's going to really link up whatever,

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faith based belief, that they hold on to.

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It wasn't hard, because there were Christians, there were Muslims, and,

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most people aren't aware of this, that Muslims do believe in the Bible.

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they believe in the Torah, they believe in the, there's a board, which is the Psalms,

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and also the Injil, which is this gospel.

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The only difference is that, they don't believe in the divinity of

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our Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

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But you, in order to serve them helping through their Greek periods,

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their trials and tribulations, you have to find something that's going

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to link between what you believe in and what they believe in, in order

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to give them spiritual nourishment.

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And it was very successful.

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So to answer your question, I'm a spiritual person.

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I believe in the law of Moses.

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I believe in the God of, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

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and I believe in the second Adam, which is Jesus Christ, our Lord,

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God, the Savior, that's who I am.

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and I love that.

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You kind of gave a glimpse into some of the things.

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I want to talk about which is that legacy of The church that you came

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from because I do think that kind of determines who we are You Often,

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you know, where do we come from?

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What is, what is our, our lineage, I guess, legacies.

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and I love that it kind of led you into a ministry role.

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So just as a quick fast forward, and then I may back up a little bit, cause

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I want to put some pieces together from all that you said currently today.

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I think you said earlier, you're not doing as much in that prison chaplain role, but

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you're working quite a bit with business owners, from a faith based perspective.

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Tell me just a little bit about that.

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And then you don't have to give all the info because I may come back to it

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later, but just bring me up to speed with what you're working on today.

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Well, what's going on Tim with, most business owners, they, operate a business,

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even though they say they're a faith based business, they are not aware of.

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The law statutes and commandments because they're spelled out clearly.

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There's actually contracts, in the book of Exodus and the book of Leviticus

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on how a business should operate.

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And they don't step outside those boundaries.

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So what I'm, what I'm doing right now is I'm bringing forth those contracts.

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I'm bringing forth those biblical contracts and also the code of conduct.

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And what's interesting about that, I had an experience a few years ago.

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I was, At a insurance seminar, and, normally during these type

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of events that they have certain representatives of these seminars,

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and they explain what the company is their history, their background.

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what's required and the people who are invited there.

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They have to go through certain requirements, basically, and

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meet standards with the company.

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Now, 1 of the facilitators and I found this really interesting.

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There was a man sitting in front when he introduced himself, he said that he had

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an experience that he was in the military.

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So the facilitator said, well, I appreciate your service.

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And then after another 20 minutes, he said, again, I appreciate service.

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then he said it again.

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And then it dawned on me what he did.

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That was a code word.

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That was a cold word basically to say or suggest that you meet all the

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requirements of our company, will be not only accepted into our company, but into

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this inner circle, good old board networks are not acceptable the eyes of God.

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If we go to, efficiency chapter six, verse nine, God talks about in

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the end of that chapter, respect.

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Respect means from the Hebrew language, it means actually

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putting forth getting in front.

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So, who meets the requirements and performs, acceptable standards to

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their company that they're working for, employee has the same right

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and privileges as anyone else.

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If you're after work and you're drinking around with other Christians

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and you're drinking beer and having fun and slaps on the back, those

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types of social characteristics cannot be carried over the business.

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Because if you do that, you're actually breaking the code of conduct this in the

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new Testament and that's having respect.

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And God is not going to respect or have respect.

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For anyone when they enter the kingdom except for those live according

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to mosaic law and the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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Right.

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So one thing that's intriguing to me is kind of question popped in my mind.

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One thing I think that might be valuable.

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because with conversations like this, I think it's really easy for us to look

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at what people might be doing wrong.

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And I do want to discuss that.

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I want to look at what some of the business leaders and other

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leaders might be doing incorrect.

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Cause I am sure we could look around the culture today with our politics

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and leadership, even in ministry and business, and we could find stuff

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wrong, and I do want us to address that.

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But what I want to ask you kind of first here, Herb, is what are

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some things that you're observing?

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That's some leaders, especially in business.

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What are some things you're seeing that they're doing really?

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Really well, some things that when you look at it, you

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go, wow, that's impressive.

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That's good.

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I'd love it to be a little more specific if you could, because I like

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to catch people doing stuff, right?

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So does anything come to your mind, anything you want to share?

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And then we, I do want to look at some of the things they're doing wrong.

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what are some things that some leaders are doing right?

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That you're, you're seeing out there.

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Well, when we go to the book of Colossians chapter four, verse one, when Paul

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talks about the master should treat and the master in this case, Let's say

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that's the employer and they should treat their servants, equal and fair.

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right.

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So, when I see owners, basically.

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treat everyone now that, of course, we have laws, we have

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anti discrimination laws.

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when I see, business owners, when they're actually treating people,

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their employees, regardless of.

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The race, regardless of their religion.

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I'm not an advocate of the gay community, but we have to treat those people fair.

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You have to treat those people equally.

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But when I see business owners actually doing that, and when another employee

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is not treating another coworker or another employee well, they'll step in.

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So what they're doing is they're employing and putting that biblical verse to use.

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And really, beyond that, from a legal standpoint, they

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really don't have to do that.

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But they're creating fair,

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peaceful working environment.

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And that's love because, Christ says that we should love ourselves first.

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And if we have love to our brother, that means God is in us.

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if they're exhibiting and producing an environment of peace, equal

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and fair treatment, that means they're putting it to use.

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That environment is equal, is fair, and also love, because, if we don't

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have love for our brother, then God is not in us, we're a liar.

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one thing related to that, Herb, we're both in our sixties, so we're mature.

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I'm guessing you've seen a lot of things over the years and

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I grew up in the Deep South.

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I grew up just outside of Atlanta in a small town that

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got swallowed up by Atlanta.

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You mentioned your grandfather came from South Carolina.

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The Deep South obviously has a lot of issues related to

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discrimination and things like that.

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My question is Herb, and I don't think I'm not trying to lead anything with this.

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you be candid as you want to be with me because we're brothers in Christ right

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here, so we could do this in your 60 plus years, we have heard about issues

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of discrimination and, and they're not just race, there are other things too,

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you brought them up, there's other people that have different sexual

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orientations and there's, you know, the male, female, there's different

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things there, but are we getting.

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Better or worse when it comes to that issue of discriminating?

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I would so love to think we're getting better, but I'm not sure at times.

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How do you assess that and what would you like to say about it when I kind

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of give you that topic to discuss?

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Discrimination, are we getting better?

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Or is it getting worse?

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When we talk about discrimination, for me, being an African American, I have

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to look at it, from that perspective.

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when we're talking about, Education right now, of course, we have black history

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and we're rapidly approaching that month.

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black history is not being.

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Presented the way it should, because.

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Each different local geographical area, they had their own story to tell.

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Black history for the most part.

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We focus on the traditional leaders we focus on.

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Dr.

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Martin, the king and Frederick Douglass.

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but for me, coming from Cleveland, Ohio, Northeastern Ohio, during the time that

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I was small, we had a lot of, segregation in the educational school system.

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the children back during that time were put in very deplorable conditions, so the

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parents wanted their children to learn and accommodations that were fitting

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for those children to be educated.

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And when they actually went out.

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picketing the school system, they were confronted by two

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different major riots, during that time period, and, it was awful.

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A lot of people were, were hurt, injured, we had domestic terrorism

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that was, inflicted by the, the local Cleveland police during that time period.

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So these things really need to be brought out and it's not.

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a broadside against any particular race, but these tragedies need to be exposed

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and also the good things and also the positive advancements that That, people

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in my race have brought forth to make this a society that's been benefiting

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off of these technological advancements.

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And to answer your question, in some ways, it has gotten better in some ways.

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It's gotten more.

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So here we have a man just recently 2 weeks ago and upstate New York.

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know if you heard about it, his name was Robert Brooks, who was beatily

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murdered, and this was on video, this was actually on video, and, and, the

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CEOs, there were four CEOs who murdered this man, and no arrests have been made

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yet, none, and, people want to always, point the finger at our President elect.

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but during the, Camilla Harris Biden administration, the murder rate for

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innocent black men and women, was on the rise during this administration.

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So, and, none of those officers were arrested.

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So, in some ways, with the attitude, with the, perspective of some of

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the teachers, with, with some of the adults, it has gotten better

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maybe on the individual level.

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but if we look at, the police departments, all across the board,

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and I have to basically zero in on Ohio, it really hasn't gotten better.

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Herb so related to that, I don't want us to go deep into the political

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Realm because I truthfully can argue a lot of different stuff on both

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sides and all that I don't know if it's a this side or that side issue.

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This isn't if you ask me Is there?

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Something, and I, I'm in general, a less government guy, because I

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think when there's more government, there's burdens that come in and

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anyway, but that's just my belief.

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But is there something at that federal government level that should be done

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or I'll give you a few choices here and you could take it and do whatever you

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want to do with, or is it something that our churches should be involved with?

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Or are there, or are businesses, which you and I work with, you know,

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is it, is it down at that level?

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what are some things just from where you say?

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And I know you don't have the answers because if you did, you

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would be the guy in charge, but what are just some of your thoughts?

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Yes, I got the answer, but nobody's called me up to ask me,

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and I'm not going to tell them.

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what are your thoughts on that?

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Because a lot of people say, oh, the government needs to just enact all

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these laws and make people do stuff.

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I've seen that, and I don't see that that works real well, and I

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don't know that I see the churches doing what I'd love for them to do,

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and what are your thoughts on that?

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no, there's no right or wrong answer.

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if we start from the top, with the federal government and just looking back.

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into the 19th century where we had, the fugitive slave law.

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for people who aren't familiar with that law, that law actually gave

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Midwesterns and Northern states, the, the legal responsibility for it.

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If a future slave or if someone thought they were a future slave, they had

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the legal responsibility to arrest that slave and go through the normal

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legal channels and send that slave, back to a Southern state and put them

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back into the institution of slavery.

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right now, we have a law,

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I think it's maybe the 13th amendment.

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that actually outlaws slavery, but there's an exception, which means that

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if, someone is incarcerated, that means that they're going to be subject to going

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back into the institution of slavery.

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And that law is still on the books.

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in a lot of states, this happened during the Clinton administration,

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there were more black men incarcerated during his administration than any other

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administration during that time period.

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the law should not give exceptions or legal loopholes,

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to allow racism to enter into.

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number one, that's what the federal government needs to do.

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and also on the local level, with the churches.

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for me, if we look back into history, there was an instrument called

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the slave Bible, and that slave Bible was really created actually

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psychologically and manipulate people.

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Right.

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The Negro population in the West Indies to accept the institution of slavery and

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to accept that that was their destiny.

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That was their fate.

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Now people will actually automatically assume that here we are in 2024.

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That's no longer on the books.

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That's not true.

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We do have modern Bibles.

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We have ministers who actually endorse and support the institution of slavery.

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Now, when I say slavery, What I mean by that is according to the definition

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of when a person is divested of all human rights and they are one

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human being owns physically another human being is chattel property.

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So that's what I mean.

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And that's why I particularly use no other Bible, but the King James Bible.

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Of 1611, because when it comes to the righteous relationship a master and

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a servant, the word servant is used.

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The word slave is not used in this Bible.

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The only time slave is used in this Bible, when the Hebrews, the Hebrew population,

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were enslaved by the Egyptians.

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And when, for instance, Joseph went in and was captured and went into

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slavery the Egyptian government.

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So the churches really need to be when it comes to this, when it comes to the

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issue of theological corruption, or that word, or the term slavery being used.

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And they need to be proactive to getting back to my grandfather, we

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had two major riots in Cleveland, the Glenville riots and the Huff riots,

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and I'm not gonna, we don't have enough time to get into the details, but

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he actually physically went into the community and actually offered prayer.

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He offered prayer.

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So what he did was he extended his ministry and took it

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out into the community.

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So I see too many ministers who were just locked into the pulpit who were

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just locked into the brick and mortar.

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And they actually need to deal with what Jesus did and the disciples did and carry

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their ministry out into the community like what you're doing with your RV and

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actually make it a working word, you know, actually take your ministry out and

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connect it with the people physically.

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And my grandfather, he even went door to door and knocked on doors.

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Ministers aren't doing that.

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this needs to be done today.

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Yeah, I think one of the things I observe, one of the things in my early,

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I was saved in my 20s, I went to a multicultural church, non denominational

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church in the Atlanta area, and I think that was helpful for me.

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Yeah.

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You know, growing up a white guy in the South, going and worshiping

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with people from cultures.

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We had Hispanics, we had African Americans, and you know, the

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music was awesome because it was a mixture of all of that.

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and I do think sometimes we segregate ourselves even in our church world.

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And, you know, some communities there's not a lot of diversity

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anyway, so that makes sense.

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but I like when we worship with.

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Other people, you know what I mean?

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And we get around others and I love what you said, Herb.

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It's so powerful.

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I think there's a lot of churches now that are sort of in the entertainment

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business or the comfort business.

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And they expect people to come through their doors and they kind of, you

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know, close those doors and they have people inside that building

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instead of opening the doors and getting out in these communities.

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Because I think that's more the answer than maybe the government coming up with

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some law that says love thy neighbor.

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I think we need to actually go out and love thy neighbor,

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ourselves and show that right.

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with the businesses you asked me, and I didn't cover that

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part with the businesses.

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What can they do?

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Basically, and this would really cross all racial barriers.

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Is there 1 of the practices that has been acceptable, but.

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Is not acceptable, according to biblical scripture and

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that is the at will contract.

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Tell me more.

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yeah, at will contracts.

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gives the, the employer the flexibility.

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determining employment based on no reason, based on no forewarning.

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and I've seen it many, many times.

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I've actually have seen groups of people actually being dismissed.

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I've actually, when I was younger working in a factory to, my college

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fees, a guy, this was a white guy.

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He had a beard and for one reason or another, He was dismissed and I heard

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later on that the foreman particularly didn't care for him because he was

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wearing a beard and the employee has no legal repercussions whatsoever.

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that's getting back to Colossians chapter four, verse one, when you're treating

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your servant, or in this case, the employee fair and on equal terms and the

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biblical, the Hebrew biblical language.

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means God fearing.

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So when an employer And a plural is just based on type of feeling that they have,

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or it's a social bias that they have.

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they're not God fearing.

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That biblical language also means righteous.

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You're not being righteous in the eyes of God.

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And it also means law abiding.

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Now, according to the human language, of course, you know, it falls

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within the framework of the law.

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under the highest court in the land, under God's law, you're not

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being a law abiding person under the law, statutes, and commandments.

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Right.

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Herb, Do you ever get pushback from,

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we'll say a business person, when you begin bringing up.

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Some things, especially going back into Old Testament law.

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I think a lot of people, that would call themselves Christians.

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they're cool with sermon on the Mount.

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They're cool with Jesus.

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They're cool with New Testament stuff.

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But if you go back to, Mosaic law, Levitical law, some of the deep

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stuff in the Old Testament, do you ever get somebody say, yeah,

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but that stuff just doesn't apply?

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and if so, how do you respond?

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I would ask that person, the first question is,

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do you believe in Jesus?

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And the answer is absolutely going to be a yes.

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Do you accept Jesus your Lord and Savior?

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And the answer is going to be yes.

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I said, okay.

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I said, well, you have doubts about Mosaic law and it no longer exists.

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And they're going to say, of course, I believe in that.

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I'm going to take them to the book of John chapter five, verse 46 and verse 47.

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Well, Christ says, if you do not believe.

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In the writings of Moses.

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You do not believe in me.

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There it is.

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There's nothing else to discuss because the Old Testament and the New Testament,

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flow and they run in harmony together.

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There is no discord.

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And if they still have problems, can go right back to the New Testament.

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We can go to the second.

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Timothy, the second book of Timothy, chapter three, verse 16, where

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Paul is giving instructions to Timothy on how to build a ministry.

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Those three books, first Timothy, second Timothy, and Titus, they're

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called the pastoral epistacles.

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So, you know, those are the letters on building ministry.

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So we can go into the second book of Timothy chapter three, verse 16.

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Paul says all scripture, all scripture is divinely inspired by God.

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so here i'm going to play a little bit of the I hate to use the term devil's

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advocate in the conversation we're having here, but I'm going to use a counter that

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I could hear some business people might bring it up but herb Is it even possible

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in the world we're in today with this Babylonian structure that we've got,

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that is our federal government, and we'll talk United States, we could obviously

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do similar things with other countries, but the, all the federal laws and

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regulation, all the state, all the local, is it even possible for me to adhere

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to those biblical laws and principles?

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All of them in the world we're in today.

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yes, it is because the laws and statutes and commandments are not

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grievous, to my knowledge, there's no government law on the books.

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that will actually force you to break the law and statute

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of commandments and God's word.

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There's none.

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Now, if it gets to that point, then you have to make a choice.

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And when you said that case that was brought up in my mind and people

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might feel uncomfortable about this, but that's just the way it is.

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Because, I'm not here to please people.

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I'm here to help you, Christ, especially those who knew a lot, those

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who were actually very astute and knowledgeable about Mosaic law, the

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Pharisees who were hypocrites, you know, and they always tried to trick

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them up, but he basically came with the truth, whether they liked it or not.

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And that's the way it is as ministers.

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When you're helping people, no matter who they are, no matter what they

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believe in, you're helping them.

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You have to give them the truth according to, what I call

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sound doctrine, sound doctrine.

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If you believe in the teachers of Christ, if you believe that Paul, who wrote most

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of the New Testament is an apostle of Christ, he talked about sound doctrine.

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if a person says, well, if it's really possible, there might be a situation where

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you just might have to make a choice.

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And I think about a woman, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Years ago, I believe it was in the state of Alabama.

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worked for a small municipal government and she was a clerk.

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She had to actually sign off on the document to accept the gay marriage.

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And she said, no, I'm, I know I'm not doing this.

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That's it.

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what you have to do at that point.

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you have to accept the fact that you actually believe in Christ,

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that when you make a decision, even though you're going to go through

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adversity, He is going to help you.

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You have to believe that.

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He's going to help you.

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He's not going to leave you hanging out to dry.

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And Christ said, when you stand up for me, you're going to be afflicted.

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You're going to be afflicted.

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You have to accept that fact.

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But in that infliction, also says that when you die from me, you will live.

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But if you just live for the world, if you're just living

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for the world, you're gonna die.

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I do recall that story.

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There might come a time in your life of business where you

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just have to make that choice.

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but Christ is not going to leave you and your family in a destitute situation.

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He's not going to do that.

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When the disciples came to him and they were concerned about their daily bread.

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it was a story about the raven the raven comes back and still

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God supplies that raven what he needs and you're above that raven.

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Oh, you with such little faith.

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I think I do recall that story.

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It may have been Kentucky that that lady was in, I believe, but I remember that.

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and I'll tell you the scripture that popped to my mind.

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So Matthew six, I don't know the exact scripture, but it's,

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you can't serve two masters.

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You can't serve God.

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You can't serve mass.

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You can only serve one master.

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and I think it comes down to who do you serve?

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and what you're talking about are having to make hard choices about that.

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So circling back a little bit to the businessman, I asked you a couple of

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questions that might be where someone is countering what you're attempting to

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lead and guide them in, do most of the people that you interact with and work

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with, are they ready to do anything?

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Everything you say, according to the biblical standard and principles, or do

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they think they're ready and there's still a bit of a process that they need to go

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through to get to that level of depth.

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Did that make sense?

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That question makes sense to you.

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What are your thoughts on that?

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there's going to be a wide variety that people are going

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to be on, different levels.

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But that, Tim, that question, it gets back to what Paul says, you have to be patient.

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You have to be patient with people when they're given the ministry.

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And he also gave the parable.

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you can't give people meat.

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You have to give them milk.

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sometimes you just can't throw everything at everybody.

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It might take them time, to consume it and digest it.

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and not only does it weigh on Christ, also, have to pray for the Holy Spirit.

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You have to pray for the Holy Spirit to actually enter that person.

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You have to pray for him.

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That's what needs to be done.

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because

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there are different levels of faith and belief.

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when we talk about Paul, Paul murdered Stephen,

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but he did it in ignorance.

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And he said he did it in ignorance, but I haven't read it anywhere in the new

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Testament, I honestly believe that's why Paul suffered so much affliction

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because he had a debt he had to pay.

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That's what I honestly believe.

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So when we're talking to different people and some people may not

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accept it, some people might be hanging on the balance a little bit.

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It's important to be patient with those people, to stay in contact

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with those people, to pray for them along the way offer them love.

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And hopefully God will give them the Holy Spirit to enter their life.

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Because the timing is on God.

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It's not on us.

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All we can do is deliver the gospel.

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Yeah, I think that's good.

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You know, the word grace just popped into my mind and it's a word that

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some people throw it around in our.

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Culture today, even our church culture and some people use it

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in different ways and all that.

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It kind of made me think, I wanted to go back to something you

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brought up at the very beginning and talk about a few things here.

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You said that, that AME church that you grew up in, I don't know

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a lot about that denomination.

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I know a little bit, but you said that it was, they, they were.

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Serious about church that you were at the church.

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If those doors were open, you were there.

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And that was an expectation, obviously with the family you're in, was there

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a lot of grace in that environment?

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and was that something that.

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I'm not asking you to be critical of how you were raised or anything

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like that, but I guess I'm sort of asking, what are some pros and cons of

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growing up in that extremely strict, as you worded it, church environment?

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I didn't understand exactly, during that time period, because I was so young, both

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of my parents were working at the time.

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my mother was a secretary.

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My father was a cop.

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He was a Cleveland cop.

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so the background, my home life, it really just centered on education.

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as far as theological instruction and faith based instruction, that

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was really, set aside for Sundays.

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but for me, I guess I just didn't understand what the benefits would be

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being raised in this type of environment.

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but the pros were that it laid a foundation and, those

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theological instructions were really incorporated through the

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moral fabric of my everyday life.

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we had to keep the house clean.

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we had to respect our neighbors.

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It didn't matter who it was.

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there was a woman next door who was very nice to us.

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we had two fruit trees in the back and sometimes I'll be in a bad, you know,

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kind of, my kids already get mischievous and I would throw cherries in there.

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my mother made me actually clean up her driveway.

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Well,

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And later on, come to find out that woman was a prostitute,

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but it didn't matter because no one told me that that woman,

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was breaking the commandments.

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The theological instruction that was incorporated, it was

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incorporated in my moral conduct.

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Hey, listen, you disrespected that woman.

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You get up there and you clean up my driveway.

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So later on in life, after high school, I broke away, but I came

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back because I had that foundation.

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And those were the pros.

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Those were the pros.

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I had something to fall back on because when I saw other young people who

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possibly didn't have that foundation.

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And they would just let us stray and they didn't make it back.

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And now I can actually thank God and I do every day.

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I thank God for actually giving me the chance, giving me the chance

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to deliver his word, giving me.

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bringing me up in a spiritually, the spiritual hierarchy that I, that I

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had, and it wasn't just my grandfather, brothers, uncles, they were all ministers.

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So, God is really blessed me and I, I thank him for that every day.

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So those were the, the pros were the foundation, the cons were that

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there was just no knowledge of understanding why I'm doing this.

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I remember I'll say this and it was kind of funny.

Speaker: 00:39:40

my grandfather was called pastor in another church, and this church,

Speaker: 00:39:45

they were conducting funerals.

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And they were actually having all these coffins on the second floor.

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I asked my mother about this yesterday.

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I said, Mom, do you remember?

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I was about maybe six.

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She said, I know what you're going to say.

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You were seven years old.

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And you were lifting up the lizards coffins.

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And you were slamming them down and running around the church.

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And my grandfather said, Carol, do something with that boy.

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So that was that.

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there are times we need correction is that's important to, you know, when you

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were talking about your neighbor, the thing that came to mind, I think about

Speaker: 00:40:22

this so often and I try to visualize this scene of Jesus with the woman at the well

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and the language that he used with her.

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and I try to do it because at times I could be fairly stern in

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the way I speak and, you know, it could come across strong and I just

Speaker: 00:40:39

think about him in that situation.

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And I think if we use that example more, the world would be

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a little bit of a better place.

Speaker: 00:40:47

One thing I definitely want to ask about, I'm kind of progressing a little bit and

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picking off some things from earlier.

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When you went into ministry and specifically when you went into chaplaincy

Speaker: 00:41:00

within the prison, what are some things, I know you said you don't do that as

Speaker: 00:41:04

much now or you don't do that anymore.

Speaker: 00:41:06

What are some things that you've learned or pulled from that

Speaker: 00:41:09

experience that you're still using today while you were within prison?

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Because that's one of the.

Speaker: 00:41:16

toughest ministry situations that I hear.

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I've done some things in elderly care homes and all that, but

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I've never gone into prisons.

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What are some things that you could tell us that you learned from doing prison

Speaker: 00:41:28

ministry that's still with you today?

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There were 2 things, well, really 3, really 3.

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The 1st thing that I, that I learned in that environment, in the prison

Speaker: 00:41:41

environment, because I was, at that time, ministering, 3 different facilities, and 1

Speaker: 00:41:48

was actually a maximum security facility.

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And there was a certain culture, there's a certain culture, within the prison system.

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And never forget, that I first entered and started working that environment,

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I had a very difficult time actually, keep getting across to the inmates.

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and one inmate one day he said, you know, chaplain, want to think about

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maybe, talking to the inmates, talking to the guys individually, you know,

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because you do have the authority.

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To bring them in.

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And when I did that, everything changed.

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Everything changed.

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And I actually met three, ex-offenders on the street.

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This is a true story, on, on the street.

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all three of 'em, every last one of 'em were reunited with their

Speaker: 00:42:43

family, had a job once, started a job and had a small business.

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And we actually had conversations.

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We actually had conversations.

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When I was actually talking to them individually, we talked about their

Speaker: 00:42:57

family, we talked about, what got them in there, we talked about, what would they

Speaker: 00:43:03

like to do when they get out, I talked about their educational goals, how they

Speaker: 00:43:08

feel about certain things, what they're going through, and they never opened

Speaker: 00:43:12

up, they never opened up while they were around other inmates what they did

Speaker: 00:43:16

when I was talking to them individually.

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The other thing I learned.

Speaker: 00:43:21

Was that I was asked to actually be an arbitrator with other chaplains.

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One was a Protestant and the other one was Catholic and they were

Speaker: 00:43:32

actually having disagreements on how they were to conduct services.

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And I said, this shouldn't, you know, this, this shouldn't happen, but

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it did, but, but, but, but it did.

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And that was another awakening experience for me because I was new.

Speaker: 00:43:50

in into the field.

Speaker: 00:43:52

And when I did that, I just had a difficult time actually reminded them

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about how to actually love yourself.

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Love your brother, and is why you're here.

Speaker: 00:44:10

You're here.

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You know, you're healed to help.

Speaker: 00:44:12

The unfortunate, even if you have to make a sacrifice.

Speaker: 00:44:16

Even if you have, you have a schedule and it's going to be interrupted,

Speaker: 00:44:21

a way around it, you know, explain, explain that to your congregation.

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You're not, I mean, you're human.

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So those were, I guess those are the other things.

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And, the 3rd thing is that, institutions need to be more

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supportive of our chaplains.

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it's amazing how when we talk about.

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Love in Christ.

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We'll talk about the love of God and actually, having the word of God

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and the Holy Spirit move through us.

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And should allow that to, transform our nature so we can touch other people.

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But a lot of times us in these positions, we get so caught up into

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our ego and the ego is nothing more than personal interest and personal

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interest is a quality of Satan.

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And, there were institutions that I found it difficult to actually get support,

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reading materials, books, scriptures, newspapers, because, there were actually

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some church officers who felt that, well, you know, I should have had your position.

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And I actually received that type of response and that was for

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me, an eye opening experience.

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And was also an educational learning experience

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Yeah, I think it's very disappointing When the ministers and the religious people

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start arguing amongst themselves about do this or don't do that, it kind of leads

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to what we were talking about a little bit before we hit record, just about religion.

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The thing I love that you said there, and this is, I want to emphasize this.

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I love that you said that when you first went in.

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I'm guessing you were probably doing services and talking

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to groups and all that.

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And that wasn't getting as far as you wanted it to.

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But when you started having one on one conversations and the word

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I'm going to use is relationship, that's when things change.

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And I think.

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That relationship is probably the answer to a lot of things we've been

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talking about during this call, Herb.

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I think it goes back to some of the discrimination and things.

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Relationship is what's important, and it may not be collective.

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It might be one on one.

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It was so good and so powerful that the relationship of one on one.

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I think what we try to do in our world today is we try to do the easy stuff.

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It's easy to get up on stage with a microphone and talk to

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20, 200, 2, 000 people, and that might be good, but you know what?

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That one on one, that's powerful.

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There's one other thing that I saw in your resume or when I was studying you, you've

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done some work, I think with youth and the topic has been manhood and character

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development and things like that.

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I guess I'd love to just hear some observations or I guess I'd just love

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for you to share just a little bit.

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about what you're seeing there because.

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Probably what's going on there at that youth level is a reflection of

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what we're seeing in our culture 10 years from now or 20 years from now.

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So if we could back up 20 years, what we're seeing now

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was what was going on with that.

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So what, what can you say about that?

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What would you like to share about that in light of the

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conversation we've been having?

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would reach out, I would say, reach it out.

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To the parents who have young males.

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And those who actually believe.

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And God's word that God has, like everything else, we'll talk about

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business, but God has a criteria.

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God has requirements.

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For man, and of those requirements can be found in the book of

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Micah, chapter 6, verse 8.

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And he actually list those requirements.

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what a man is.

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And man from the.

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The Hebrew biblical language, and there's 3 levels of a man, and that word is

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Adam or Adam, but Hebrew definition is the 1st level is a human being.

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So, when we have males, who are actually, disrespectful.

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to their teachers.

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to their parents, they're actually receiving.

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Counterproductive again from the world.

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they have computers, which is nothing more than a cell phone.

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That's the corner, but it's nothing more than a handheld computer and,

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they have access to videos and movies and, the parents will really be

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more observant and more attentive about what's entering their mind.

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the 2nd level of a man is a hypocrite.

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The 3rd level is just a low man.

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So they're receiving all these messages from different movies.

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On what a man is or what a man should be, accumulating vast sums of wealth,

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cars, and sex, and, having a lot of different female relationships.

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that definition is contrary to the biblical definition, and we actually

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see what's going on right now when the world defines what a man is, it leads

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to violence, it leads to destruction, or what the Bible calls, Now, when

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it comes to accumulating wealth or provisions, of course, and I believe

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it's in his, second book of Timothy, where a man has to provide for his

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family, because if you don't, you're considered less than, an infidel, but

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there's more, there's more, qualities.

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To be a man or reaching manhood.

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when parents right now, what they should do is they really shouldn't investigate or

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if they don't, if they can't investigate it, if they don't have the biblical

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knowledge to actually, find out what the biblical definition of a man, how to

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mold a man's character, go see your local priest, go see your minister, because

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you don't want to, you don't want your, your, your male to get to the point.

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where he's 30, 40, 50, 60 years old.

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And I, I've actually saw this in my own life where someone who I thought I used

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to know actually engaged in an argument.

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And this man, was in his sixties.

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He got into a verbal confrontation a man who was young enough to be his

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grandson, who was in his twenties.

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And the young man actually apologized to him.

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And then, he told me about this experience and what makes it

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so Disturbing but interesting.

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He told me and his son later that was his definition of manhood was engaging in an

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argument with a, a young man, young enough to be his grandson in an environment

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where people are bereavement in, and I'm telling you, I honestly believe.

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There were a lot of, there are women right now listening to this, were,

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I honestly believe they will agree that there are a lot of men right now

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who have reached the stage of life where they're either 40, 50 or older.

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who have the wrong conception of man.

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And the only way, the only way, to actually find out what the true

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definition of manhood and develop properly is to actually go through

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Micah chapter 6 verse 8 and there are other biblical scriptures or talk to

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your local, minister or your priest.

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that's so good, because I do think the root of a lot of our issues

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are related to that manhood.

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so Herb, it's been a great conversation.

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We've talked about a lot of things, but because right now you really are

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ministering with, to that business person that's attempting to, to live and operate

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their business by biblical principles.

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I think what I'd like to do here with my last question is I'd love for you to just

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speak into the mic, look into the camera, because I think a lot of people want.

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to operate their business by biblical principles.

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I think they desire to but maybe it's hard for them to see how that might

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happen So i'd love for you to just maybe encourage them just give a word

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of encouragement Just so that people can finish up if they're maybe wrestling

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with how they can Operate their business and make money maybe they're battling

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between, serving two masters, mammon or God, and they want to serve God with

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their business and all that they do.

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just give a word of encouragement for that business person that

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really wants to serve God.

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God in all they do.

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My 1st word encouragement.

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If a business person feels from the deep down depth of their soul.

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There's something that's not right in the book of John, it says.

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are 3 levels to repent.

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And that means 1st of all, you have to admit the fact that

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there's something that's not right.

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That's the 1st step.

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The 2nd step is to actually tell God that, Forgive me.

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You ask God, you ask Christ for your forgiveness.

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And then you seek help.

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Because we're talking about the, old books, and those were kings,

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you know, back in the Old Testament, they all went to the prophets.

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They all, all the rulers, all the kings, all the princes, all

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the merchants, they, They went to the prophets first to seek help.

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So, you know, so you are a ruler and that also brings to the mind.

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I'll give us a number one on time and I'll bring this example.

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I actually met with a major business owner.

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It's been a long time ago, but he had a major insurance agency in

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downtown Manhattan in New York.

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he pulled me along in his office and we talked about 10 of those personal

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relationships and he had a different personality that he projected when he was

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around his sales force, but he showed me a different type of guy when we were in his

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office and he actually humbled himself.

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So, my words of encouragement, when you seek help from your minister,

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your priest or whoever it is.

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that personal relationship, but at first it has to start with admitting

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to the fact that something's wrong in your life, ask for repentance, and

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then physically go out and seek help.

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Those are my words of encouragement.

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Those are, those are very helpful.

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I love the humble yourself.

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Herb, if someone wants to reach out to you and connect with you and,

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and talk to you more, or find out more about what you do, what's the

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best way for someone to do that?

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They can do it two ways, Tim.

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they can call me and my phone number is 216 563 2031.

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Or, they can actually email me.

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At Herbert Burns, the number seven at yahoo.

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com and, within 24 hours, I will respond.

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So,

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Nice.

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We'll include that down in the notes.

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Haven't had many people just flat out, give their phone number.

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That's pretty unique.

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I actually appreciate that and like that, that shows relationship right there.

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So, herb, I appreciate this final question.

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We are seek, go create those three words.

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I'm going to allow you or force you to pick one of those that just means more

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to you or that you want to say something about as my final question, seek, go, Or

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create, which one do you choose and why?

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I would choose seek because, seek basically reminds me of when actually

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told the disciples to go out and seek those, seek those who need help.

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And they were spreading the gospel through all over the world.

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That really connects with my ministry is to seek those wherever they are,

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wherever they're located throughout this country, whether it's in person,

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or on zoom to seek those who need help helping their life, whether it is through

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operating their business, according to scripture, or maybe they want to

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develop into a man and they don't want to live by the worldly principles.

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So see, see, that really resonates with me.

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Excellent.

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Love it.

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Herbert Addison burns.

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Thank you so much for joining us here on seek, go create.

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I've enjoyed the conversation.

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I knew that we would, I told you, it's going to be like you and I

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sitting over coffee, just kind of talking about some deep stuff and

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we had some good deep conversation.

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For those of you that would like to reach out to Herbert, he gave you his info.

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Make sure you do that.

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All that'll be down in.

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And I also appreciate everyone listening in here.

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We've got new episodes that release on YouTube and all

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the platforms every Monday.

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I appreciate you continuing to listen and sharing and making

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comments, especially over on YouTube.

Speaker: 00:57:46

Y'all are making some awesome, great comments over on YouTube.

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Thank you for that.

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Thanks for listening in until next time.

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Continue being all that you were created to be.