Melodies of Life and Love: Insights from Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I'm going to, make these

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relationships whatnot.

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They might be in mainstream pop music.

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They might be in Christian music, but who it ultimately

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goes to is I give that to God.

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I give that the destiny of that to God and I'm not going to necessarily

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try to get all that figured out.

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And that has been that's just been swimming against a 60

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foot wave my entire life.

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You

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How can the seemingly insignificant details of life

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unveil profound insights on love, creativity, and faith?

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Today on Seek Go Create, we're honored to host Charlie Peacock, a multi Grammy

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winner, and author Andy Ashworth, as they share the wisdom gleaned

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from nearly 50 years of marriage in their latest book, Why Everything

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That Doesn't Matter, matter so much.

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This couple brings to life the notion that every aspect of our existence, no

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matter how small, has the potential to impact people, the planet, and culture.

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Through a collection of letters, they offer hope and practical advice to

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Christians seeking to navigate the complexities of the modern world with

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kindness, forgiveness, and compassion.

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Welcome to Seek Go Create.

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: for that wonderful introduction.

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Yeah.

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am, I I want to say right out,

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I usually start off with this odd question about what people do, but I have

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thoroughly enjoyed over the last few days.

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I feel as if I've gotten to know you through your book.

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And, and I think, and I want to say this, this might be a good thing, might not.

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I didn't know much about you before that.

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It's really been quite intriguing for me that this is kind of my

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introduction, which is really cool.

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But, I, I think what I'd love to do, I usually kind of get people to talk

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about what they do or things like that, but it's rare that I have couples.

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So what I'd love to do and maybe, start with you, Andy, I'd love for maybe you

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to intro or say something about Charlie.

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And then Charlie, if you could say something or intro Andy, and

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then we'll kind of get rolling and see where things take us.

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So

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Andy, introduce Charlie to me.

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Okay, I will I will start with Charlie

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has been my boyfriend since I was 6 15 15 years old and The first thing he

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ever did was sit me down in his room and have me listen to Miles Davis,

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an important Miles Davis record.

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And to, to, tell me that this was really important to him.

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Music was really important to him.

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And he's an extraordinary musician and songwriter and record producer

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that he's in a really, beautiful, beautiful, encouraging husband.

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And a really fun grandfather, and a very fun dad, and, in the world of things

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that he makes, he makes a lot of fun, memorable things happen in our family.

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So I would, I would start with that.

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Oh,

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That,

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that is an excellent introduction.

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Charlie, can you.

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uh, how about that?

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: don't know if I can match that.

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Yes, this is Andy and as she said, my sweetheart since I was a teenager

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and, we have created a life together that is completely unexpected, not

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planned for and yet in many ways planned for, since we were kids.

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I mean, we can go back and look at things that we journaled or something that we may

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have, may have made it a sort of, vision board or something in high school and,

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and see so many things that came to pass.

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And, a big part of that is that Andy is the glue in our

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relationship and in our family.

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because.

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She puts relationships first.

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And, in my work, I've had this weird mix of relational and transactional.

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And there's just not a transactional bone in Andy's body.

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It's, it's like all love, all people all the time, and always concerned about what

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someone is thinking or feeling and how she can serve them and, bring them in closer.

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So she does that with me and she does that with our kids and her grandkids.

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And, and it really is that we really are first on her mind.

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And then out from there, she has extraordinary friendships.

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I mean, she has friendships with, with girlfriends from

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when, before we were together.

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So that's, that's how much she is this kind of sticky, sticky.

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glue centered relational person, that she makes a friend and she keeps a friend.

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And that's a really beautiful thing.

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And then, then she just has a huge hospitable heart that is a welcoming heart

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and create spaces for people that, are deeply meaningful for them, for strangers

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and for people that she's known for ever.

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I mean, that's just the tip of, tip of it, but that's a good introduction.

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uh, I, I appreciate those words.

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And like, I, I think we're in a society and culture where number one

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longevity, almost 50 years of marriage, my wife and I just celebrated 35.

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So we're a number of years behind, but, but heading in that direction.

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And.

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Doing well.

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Yeah, thank you.

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And we, I think very similar to the two of you are still still in learning mode.

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I mean, do y'all feel

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like, I don't want to say you're just getting started, but, but

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I mean, is it, is it, I mean, where are you at in the spectrum?

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah, we're just getting

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started on our fifth marriage.

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To each other.

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Yeah, to each other.

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Yeah.

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I mean, Andy said it well at different times that, that we are, they're just

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these big phases, and we are very grateful to be in a really good one right now,

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where we have gone through a valley where we had to learn a lot again.

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Yeah.

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And come, come out of it.

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And yeah, we, we know that now.

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I think, I think that the certainty of our love and our marriage has,

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has never been greater because of the many valleys and mountaintops

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that we've traversed together.

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One thing that's interesting to me, I had a conversation

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recently with, with a guest and.

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He was talking about that the goal isn't really balanced.

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He was talking about being a business leader and he says,

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we're not to lead a balanced life.

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We're really called to lead an integrated life where we integrate our faith.

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And, and, and, we, we hear this, we hear things thrown around in our culture,

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society, things like opposites attract.

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And I don't know that I agree with that.

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I, I believe that with my wife and I, and kind of what I'm hearing

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with you two and reading is I think that compliments attract.

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It's like people that are complimentary that can integrate.

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And to me, it seems as if one of our journeys in this married life

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is learning how to, integrate and, and, and we're still learning.

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It sounds like, y'all are, y'all are still learning.

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Now, the thing that.

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Let me go ahead and dive right into the book because I think it's going to lead

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us in a lot of different directions.

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The book, Why Everything That Doesn't Matter Matters So Much.

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And the thing that I kept, that I kept getting from it

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was how well y'all integrated.

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I think I saw plenty of places that there could be conflict because when

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you have a certain personality and a certain personality, but I, I kept seeing

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integration and I was wondering if that was one of the intentions of the book,

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or is it a by product or have y'all even thought about it that, that Andy, what

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are, what are your thoughts on that?

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I think it's both.

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I think it's maybe something we don't even realize all the time, but.

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We do tend to be of one mind about a lot of things and then we also definitely have

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our own personalities and I, I agree with the person you, you were referring to.

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I don't think the balance is a possible thing.

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I think there is grace and there's tension along the way of our life.

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I just think that's the real thing.

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I think there's you know, lots of tension for lots of reasons, whether

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age or stage or personalities or, but then there's grace inside of that.

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And that is, I think the journey, the pilgrim journey is to, to, I don't know.

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I always see it as putting your, your palms open at really difficult

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passages and saying, I don't, I don't know how to move forward.

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help us, guide us, we're really needy, and then we'll integrate

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again, even if we've been far apart.

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I think we get closer and closer and closer together.

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The more we age, the more we experience.

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And yeah, so it's been, it's been all of that.

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Yeah, one,

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: And the book, yeah,

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well, I was going to say, Charlie, one of the

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things that was intriguing to me, it actually wasn't intriguing.

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It was more affirming.

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This may be the better word, was one of the last chapters that you wrote.

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And I don't want to say it was almost like an apology.

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I think you even worded it more of a confession.

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Of these are some things that I've done that, as a, a multitasker, you use the

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word multitasking and, as someone who is more transactional and someone who

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is more maybe in the business space, you, I, I don't think I'm putting words

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in my, it was almost like you were sort of as a, as a husband, father

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saying, I'm sorry that I was this way.

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I wish I could change it a little bit.

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And, and I think that relates to the, the tension or the integration, whatever

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that we feel as people that are leaders.

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You want to, what can you say to that?

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Did I, did I read it right?

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Or was I just, was I projecting

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my issues onto what you were writing?

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: it right.

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No, I think you did read it right.

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I think there's a I'm not one of these people who who thinks that you should

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go through life without regrets.

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I actually think that if you don't have regrets, then you've got

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probably a serious ego problem or a problem with the self analysis.

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So I'm okay with having regrets, but I put them, I put them in my whole

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perspective and knowing that all my efforts, all my best efforts, approximate

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efforts, I haven't done anything with perfection, that the reason for

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the analysis or the reason for the confession is, is simply to grow in

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grace and to receive grace for that.

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continue to mature and not look at just my age number and say, Oh,

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well, yeah, I'm pretty much done now.

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Now I, it's, it's more like as, as I feel that God reveals things to me

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that I do want to mature and, and grow.

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and so a lot of the things that worked for me in business, It's kind of like

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they had a, two sides of the coin, there's a positive side and a negative side.

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And so you could so easily tip over, just flip the coin and

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then it's all negative, right?

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So you take things like, a really, unusual, resilience perhaps, right?

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or the ability to work long hours or any of those kinds of things, right?

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then you use, you think, well, look, I don't an eight hour day.

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I mean, shoot, let's do a 16 hour day.

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I mean, look how much more we can get done.

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Right.

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but that's based on the object of just getting things done.

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Right.

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And there are many things in life, for entrepreneurial people where,

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yeah, that, that is job one.

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getting it done and getting it done well and getting it done for the

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least amount of expense and the quickest amount of time, right?

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So you can become so oriented by that way of thinking that you'll,

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you'll miss the people that you love the most and missed moments in

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life that, that you'll later regret.

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You'll think like, well, did I really have to do that?

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I mean, and this is where Andy has been such a good voice through our

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entire marriage, to just, insert the, Sabbath theology, of dependence and

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rest into day to day living where, where we can hold to this idea that we're,

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we're just small little people, right?

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We, we do get these extraordinary opportunities to do really big things.

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And some of us are super excited about that.

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And we enter into it and we execute it and do that.

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But at the end of the day, what I learned was that I did a lot of that

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stuff based on the wrong motivations.

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And so most of my maturity and healing has come through

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discovering why I was so motivated.

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Certainly a part of it is taking care of a family, building

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businesses and all of that.

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I get that.

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But there's also a part where it becomes your meaning.

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And for me, I mean, I, I was in a sense addicted to imagining

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and addicted to creating because that's where I felt the safest.

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The ability to just immerse myself in my imagination and draw out of that things

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that I wanted to bring into the world.

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And that just made me feel safe.

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And when, when it came time for the world to decide whether it was going to

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applaud me and pay me for it, they made the decision to applaud me and pay me.

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Right?

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Which of course, what did that do?

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That just reinforced it.

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And so I lived on that for a long, long time while trying to be.

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a good husband, good father, good grandfather, all of that.

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But I did have to finally come to terms with the fact that this was that two

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sided coin and that there was a super positive contribution to culture, to

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family, to all of that, but that all it took was just a little flip and it

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could go to, the negative side of it.

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The interesting thing about

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that is that I recognized I I've always business has always been

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my quote unquote, I guess, arena.

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Maybe my art.

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I don't, I don't, I don't know if that I've what's, what's cool about

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this conversation is I've never considered myself someone who is an

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artist, even though in the last few years I've written a novel, which was

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quite an interesting stretch for me.

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It's very fascinating.

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We can kind of sidebar that, but

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related to what you were saying there, Charlie, what I recognize with me.

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A while back, and I'm still working through this, is that

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I had an addiction to more.

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And I spoke to someone recently that said they, it was a related addiction,

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but they were addicted to tomorrow.

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And I've never heard someone say they're addicted to imagination.

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And I don't think that those are the same, but I think they're related.

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And, and I think they could spin off in different directions.

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I think the challenge with our culture and our world, and I might even let Andy

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address this and speak to this is that often that is rewarded and applauded

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and celebrated as opposed to if.

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you and I had been addicted to, I don't know, alcohol or,

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meth or something like that.

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We would, we would obviously have issues there, but we're applauded

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because it looks as if we're succeeding, but I'm not sure

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that we are in the eternal, I think we are,

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah.

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we're not.

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: You're succeeding by a standard.

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It's just not an eternal standard.

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Well,

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and so what does that do for someone in your role, Andy, when you're, uh,

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attached or integrated or married to, or cleaning up the messes or whatever you

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want to say about someone who is that way.

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Cause my wife, we could probably get y'all here and y'all

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could have this conversation,

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but, uh, but, that

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like?

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: well, it's different at

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different stages of life.

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I'm thinking of when we were young, younger parents.

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And we had just moved to Nashville.

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And the music business, the music making, recording, touring, record

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companies, began to have a more and more say in how our life was lived.

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But I didn't really get any say.

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But it was all coming from, it was coming from outside of us.

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And, I, I didn't.

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have a chance to respond much.

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So the way I was responding is that I'm trying to hold up a flag for somebody to

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see, to say, I'm starting to drown here.

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I need, I need, and then it, it moved into the realm of the hospitality

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thing where we had, a very, very open home for, more than two decades.

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And so everything was happening inside of the home.

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in that regard where I was, whether it was taking care of children,

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oftentimes on my own for that.

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Or whether it was later in life, taking care of guests and houseguests and,

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the people who were coming through, which was all something that I really

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I felt very called to and loved.

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But then there was a place where I also wanted to say, but I don't

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want to be alone in these things.

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I want a partner.

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I want, and I don't think that biblically it's meant to be that way either.

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so that was, that was often a big struggle for me.

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And, now we're at a different stage of life.

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So we don't have, guests in our house all the time, as we used

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to, our children are grown.

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We have, we have a lot more choice and we have come to a much better understanding

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of each other and, what's good for each other and how we want to live.

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it's so much better in that regard where both of our voices are heard.

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But I will say that, in those other things that I just talked

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about that, that made them.

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It had the joyful part and the called part.

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And then the part that I thought, I don't want to be alone in

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these things all the time.

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And I want to have choice and I want to have a say, but as Chuck already said,

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especially with the music business, it's, or, with record companies, there's,

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it's always like every opportunity is the, is the right opportunity.

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Right.

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But that might not always be the case.

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For a marriage or a family or,

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Charlie, one of the

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things, and

Tim Winders: 00:21:02

I know, and I love in the book, and I was afraid I would call him Chuck because

Tim Winders: 00:21:06

you call him Chuck throughout the book.

Tim Winders: 00:21:07

And

Tim Winders: 00:21:11

so, Charlie or Chuck or whoever will, we'll just, he'll answer.

Tim Winders: 00:21:14

I'll answer to

Tim Winders: 00:21:15

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Well, I'll tell you how it breaks down is

Tim Winders: 00:21:18

like if my, if my parents, let's see.

Tim Winders: 00:21:21

No, I think when my last days, my dad would call me

Tim Winders: 00:21:24

Charlie, just for fun, I think.

Tim Winders: 00:21:27

but my mom still always called me Chuck, and then Andy called me, Chuck.

Tim Winders: 00:21:34

Yeah, because I, I didn't start being Charlie till I

Tim Winders: 00:21:37

was about 21 or so, I guess.

Tim Winders: 00:21:42

so I have like people that, in fact, I just got an email

Tim Winders: 00:21:46

from someone yesterday, right?

Tim Winders: 00:21:49

And so they said, Dear Chuck, right?

Tim Winders: 00:21:52

Because they qualified like they've been around so long.

Tim Winders: 00:21:56

They qualify to be in the Chuck years, right?

Tim Winders: 00:21:59

But you do whatever you want.

Tim Winders: 00:22:00

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:22:02

Well, good.

Tim Winders: 00:22:02

Well, That's something that I enjoyed.

Tim Winders: 00:22:05

so here's a, another bit of confession for me.

Tim Winders: 00:22:09

My personality would be one where I would really enjoy the content of.

Tim Winders: 00:22:19

Charlie's letters that he wrote in the book, because generally they had a, had a

Tim Winders: 00:22:25

flavor of some business and, some things that were going on and all of that.

Tim Winders: 00:22:30

And I'm, I'm hopeful that, that Charlie, this is when you might say, I want you to

Tim Winders: 00:22:35

call me Charlie, not Chuck, that Charlie's okay with this, but I found myself.

Tim Winders: 00:22:41

Truly enjoying Andy's letters.

Tim Winders: 00:22:44

I, I felt as if I was, if this, as if I was sitting with her and

Tim Winders: 00:22:50

talking with her, where with Charlie,

Tim Winders: 00:22:53

I was gathering information that I loved.

Tim Winders: 00:22:55

I also want to say this about the book, and this is, I think, Probably

Tim Winders: 00:22:58

one of the best endorsements that I could give my wife and our readers.

Tim Winders: 00:23:03

I read a lot, obviously, to consume content, to do research for the podcast.

Tim Winders: 00:23:07

And my wife, almost every book she reads, she tells me, you need to read this book.

Tim Winders: 00:23:12

You need to read this book.

Tim Winders: 00:23:13

You need to read this book.

Tim Winders: 00:23:16

I rarely will read a book and say to her, my wife's glory.

Tim Winders: 00:23:19

Oh, you need to read this book.

Tim Winders: 00:23:21

I was about halfway through over the weekend.

Tim Winders: 00:23:23

And I said, this is a book you need to read.

Tim Winders: 00:23:26

There's a lot of things that can touch you.

Tim Winders: 00:23:28

There's a lot of things to pull from things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:23:31

So having said all that.

Tim Winders: 00:23:34

Charlie, I'm about to ask you about one of the letters that you wrote that

Tim Winders: 00:23:38

really pulled at me as far as the topic.

Tim Winders: 00:23:41

And that is this whole aspect of putting the label Christian in front of Whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:23:50

I, I deal with it

Tim Winders: 00:23:52

because I'm a businessman and I always, oh, you're a Christian businessman.

Tim Winders: 00:23:56

I said, well, I don't even like the word Christian much anymore.

Tim Winders: 00:24:00

I mean, I noticed y'all use this term follower of Jesus or follower of Christ.

Tim Winders: 00:24:04

I try to use that too.

Tim Winders: 00:24:05

And I'm almost,

Tim Winders: 00:24:06

I don't think I'm trying to distance myself from people.

Tim Winders: 00:24:09

Maybe I am.

Tim Winders: 00:24:10

We don't have to get into that, but

Tim Winders: 00:24:13

talk a little bit about the industry you've been in that.

Tim Winders: 00:24:17

label that you really in that early on letter in the book you, you, I, I

Tim Winders: 00:24:23

won't say you were ranting, but I said, he's trying to get a point across here.

Tim Winders: 00:24:26

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: very much.

Tim Winders: 00:24:27

So I mean, and it's I will say that as much as I don't want it to be.

Tim Winders: 00:24:34

I mean, it's been one of the kind of Keystone work works of my lifetime,

Tim Winders: 00:24:40

since I've been a young Christian.

Tim Winders: 00:24:43

I mean, I have been in this conversation.

Tim Winders: 00:24:46

writing about it, speaking about it, and I can't tell you how difficult it is to

Tim Winders: 00:24:52

get this point across or to get anyone to, to understand it or receive it.

Tim Winders: 00:24:58

That and, and my retort to that is that that reveals just how much the

Tim Winders: 00:25:05

church is indoctrinated to branding as a way of being and a way of life.

Tim Winders: 00:25:14

And, what I've tried to say is that no, you're free from

Tim Winders: 00:25:18

that and you can distinguish.

Tim Winders: 00:25:20

I mean, I honestly, I saw this with the Gospel Music Association

Tim Winders: 00:25:26

back when I was involved with with Christian music quite a bit.

Tim Winders: 00:25:30

They really jumped on the branding bandwagon, 25 plus years ago when,

Tim Winders: 00:25:36

when people were really, people were hiring consultants right and left about

Tim Winders: 00:25:40

everything had to be branded, right?

Tim Winders: 00:25:43

Everything had to have elevator pitch, mission statement, I

Tim Winders: 00:25:46

mean, everybody was in it.

Tim Winders: 00:25:48

I don't care.

Tim Winders: 00:25:48

You're going to start a business, tomorrow, that was going to be

Tim Winders: 00:25:51

the first thing you did, right?

Tim Winders: 00:25:53

It wasn't about big ideas anymore.

Tim Winders: 00:25:55

It wasn't about passion.

Tim Winders: 00:25:56

It wasn't about instinct, intuition.

Tim Winders: 00:25:58

It wasn't about risk anymore.

Tim Winders: 00:26:01

All, All of those things followed after you got your branding together.

Tim Winders: 00:26:06

And I saw that infiltrate the church in every aspect of it.

Tim Winders: 00:26:12

Pastors became branded, I mean everything.

Tim Winders: 00:26:16

And then all the products that were associated with it.

Tim Winders: 00:26:19

And I just was like, man, you guys, you just don't know where this leads.

Tim Winders: 00:26:26

It leads to narrowing.

Tim Winders: 00:26:29

are concepts of what it means to be a Christian.

Tim Winders: 00:26:31

It doesn't widen them like that.

Tim Winders: 00:26:34

The whole purpose, the whole economic purpose of branding is to have the

Tim Winders: 00:26:40

least amount of conversation to produce the highest effect, right?

Tim Winders: 00:26:47

If I say water, your, your mind can immediately go to the options.

Tim Winders: 00:26:55

It is the simplest conversation.

Tim Winders: 00:26:57

That's why water was chosen as something that was so simple to

Tim Winders: 00:27:02

sell and so simple to brand, right?

Tim Winders: 00:27:05

And something that you can make an extraordinary amount of money on.

Tim Winders: 00:27:08

I mean any of us who have been entrepreneurs, we would have been lucky

Tim Winders: 00:27:12

to just be water salespeople, right?

Tim Winders: 00:27:15

I mean, it's so simple and that's exactly what branding seeks to do.

Tim Winders: 00:27:20

It seeks to simplify everything.

Tim Winders: 00:27:23

And the point about being a Jesus follower is that it is not simple.

Tim Winders: 00:27:31

It is not simple.

Tim Winders: 00:27:32

It is so complex and it's so individual and it has so many different missions so

Tim Winders: 00:27:39

many different looks not only that it's generational and it's international.

Tim Winders: 00:27:45

And I mean, it's so so the ability the idea that we would

Tim Winders: 00:27:50

brand something as Christian.

Tim Winders: 00:27:52

It's like What Christian?

Tim Winders: 00:27:54

Who's Christian?

Tim Winders: 00:27:56

I'm going to need more information than that.

Tim Winders: 00:27:58

And it's so especially now, that's why I would take that positions because

Tim Winders: 00:28:02

look, if you call me a Christian, I want to know what you mean by that.

Tim Winders: 00:28:07

If I call something a Christian, you should want to know what I mean by that.

Tim Winders: 00:28:12

Because if anyone who studies it for even five minutes is going to find out that.

Tim Winders: 00:28:18

There are so many ideas about what constitutes a Christian today that we

Tim Winders: 00:28:23

are not speaking the same language.

Tim Winders: 00:28:26

We are just absolutely not speaking the

Tim Winders: 00:28:28

I, I think what

Tim Winders: 00:28:29

bothers me, I mean, again, I'm, I'm a business guy is kind of

Tim Winders: 00:28:36

all, most of what I've done.

Tim Winders: 00:28:38

That's where All my successes and addictions and challenges

Tim Winders: 00:28:44

have been related to,

Tim Winders: 00:28:46

and you know, the mantra there, like you said, with branding, I'll say

Tim Winders: 00:28:50

it maybe a slightly different way is you have to know your audience.

Tim Winders: 00:28:54

You have to choose your audience.

Tim Winders: 00:28:55

You have to focus on your audience, isolate your audience, and

Tim Winders: 00:28:59

speak directly to your audience.

Tim Winders: 00:29:03

And what that gets us Is I, I think what it gets us is the culture we have

Tim Winders: 00:29:08

today where we have an extreme tribal.

Tim Winders: 00:29:12

And again, we, we, I don't want us to go down this path, but

Tim Winders: 00:29:15

we're extremely tribal, confusing.

Tim Winders: 00:29:18

I, isolated group of people at a time where we should be more connected

Tim Winders: 00:29:22

than ever, because we could do things like we're doing right here.

Tim Winders: 00:29:26

three people meet, get on a, a, a techno, not a Technology platform

Tim Winders: 00:29:32

and have a one hour conversation and share it with the world.

Tim Winders: 00:29:35

How cool is that?

Tim Winders: 00:29:37

And, and so I, I think back to when I was reading through that chapter, it,

Tim Winders: 00:29:42

it reminded me of years ago, I started following Tim Tebow on On Instagram and I

Tim Winders: 00:29:51

was following him because I was attempting to identify kind of how to call myself.

Tim Winders: 00:29:58

I mean, I'm a, I'm a coach at heart, but I love doing this and I love doing a

Tim Winders: 00:30:03

lot of things and I've written a novel.

Tim Winders: 00:30:05

How interesting is that?

Tim Winders: 00:30:08

And I, and I wanted to say, do I need to put Christian

Tim Winders: 00:30:11

businessman, Christian coach?

Tim Winders: 00:30:12

Cause I see that.

Tim Winders: 00:30:14

And I went to Tim Tebow's who we all know Tim's, background and stuff like that.

Tim Winders: 00:30:18

And at that time he had athlete that was, that was his

Tim Winders: 00:30:24

description.

Tim Winders: 00:30:24

So it is more of that, what one, one, what one does or their gift.

Tim Winders: 00:30:30

And, and I, and I think it's pretty, Part of what's causing our issues today

Tim Winders: 00:30:37

is that we're attempting to, I, I'll say it this way and then I'll be quiet.

Tim Winders: 00:30:41

Maybe I'll let Andy respond to this.

Tim Winders: 00:30:43

I really believe we're attempting to use Babylonian principles to

Tim Winders: 00:30:48

describe kingdom of God, people, and what we're trying to do.

Tim Winders: 00:30:53

I mean, we're just trying to do all the stuff that the world system says

Tim Winders: 00:30:57

when we really should be Operating out of what y'all's book says, the

Tim Winders: 00:31:01

way of love in a world of, so anyway, there wasn't a question there.

Tim Winders: 00:31:08

Anything you want to say to it?

Tim Winders: 00:31:09

Either one of you.

Tim Winders: 00:31:10

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: no, but you, I mean, you nailed it.

Tim Winders: 00:31:13

You nailed it.

Tim Winders: 00:31:13

Exactly.

Tim Winders: 00:31:15

I mean, I wish more people understood, would understand what it was that

Tim Winders: 00:31:19

you were saying, but you did nail it.

Tim Winders: 00:31:21

I mean, that's exactly what it is.

Tim Winders: 00:31:23

It's Babylonian principles,

Tim Winders: 00:31:25

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:31:26

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: in sort of inserting kingdom language.

Tim Winders: 00:31:29

so you're devaluing the language because it's actually the.

Tim Winders: 00:31:33

The kingdom language is inflated or informed by all

Tim Winders: 00:31:37

this Babylonian, impulse, right?

Tim Winders: 00:31:41

And so it's really not the words don't mean what we

Tim Winders: 00:31:44

Right.

Tim Winders: 00:31:44

Right.

Tim Winders: 00:31:45

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:31:45

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: they're just they're placeholders

Tim Winders: 00:31:47

for a different kind of affection.

Tim Winders: 00:31:50

And I think that's, that's the, that's the reason why we are, we try to be

Tim Winders: 00:31:55

as careful as we can, to, to find what we're talking about and try to write

Tim Winders: 00:32:00

in such a way and speak in public in such a way that, that people can look

Tim Winders: 00:32:05

over our shoulder or anyone can be in the room, I will say this and then I'll

Tim Winders: 00:32:10

pass off to Andy is that I do think that there can be a place for someone

Tim Winders: 00:32:15

to say, I'm a Christian life coach.

Tim Winders: 00:32:19

Okay, if you want to, if you want your audience to only be Christians.

Tim Winders: 00:32:27

And, and that's it.

Tim Winders: 00:32:28

So like when my, really, really close friends that I worked with for

Tim Winders: 00:32:31

years at EMI Christian music group.

Tim Winders: 00:32:34

or Sparrow Records or any of those folks, when they self identify as, as

Tim Winders: 00:32:40

a Christian business person or self identify as a Christian record company,

Tim Winders: 00:32:45

they want to do that because they do want to sell things to Christians.

Tim Winders: 00:32:50

The difference between them and I is that I was never, I was never driven to

Tim Winders: 00:32:56

sell things to Christians exclusively.

Tim Winders: 00:33:00

And I've never been driven that way.

Tim Winders: 00:33:03

I'm so much more on the making side, my driven.

Tim Winders: 00:33:07

This is on the making and then I sort of draw a line in the dirt

Tim Winders: 00:33:11

and say and now who it goes to.

Tim Winders: 00:33:14

Of course, I'm going to, make these relationships whatnot.

Tim Winders: 00:33:17

They might be in mainstream pop music.

Tim Winders: 00:33:19

They might be in Christian music, but who it ultimately

Tim Winders: 00:33:21

goes to is I give that to God.

Tim Winders: 00:33:24

I give that the destiny of that to God and I'm not going to necessarily

Tim Winders: 00:33:29

try to get all that figured out.

Tim Winders: 00:33:30

And that has been that's just been swimming against a 60

Tim Winders: 00:33:35

foot wave my entire life.

Tim Winders: 00:33:39

But I do believe for me, that's my calling and so I have to stick with it.

Tim Winders: 00:33:45

And that's, that's what faithfulness looks like for me.

Tim Winders: 00:33:47

I'm not saying it has to be that way for you, but I'm, I'm saying

Tim Winders: 00:33:50

that's what it looks like for me.

Tim Winders: 00:33:52

So I do want to be understood.

Tim Winders: 00:33:54

Maybe that's why I keep writing about it.

Tim Winders: 00:33:56

I want, please, someone understand this.

Tim Winders: 00:33:59

Or, or you want to convince someone, I think that's sometimes what

Tim Winders: 00:34:02

I'm trying to do is people to be more.

Tim Winders: 00:34:08

I don't know if it's more open.

Tim Winders: 00:34:10

I mean, I'm sure you have seen these situations if you've been

Tim Winders: 00:34:14

around the industry, there are times that I would much rather hang out,

Tim Winders: 00:34:18

I hate to say it this way, with heathens than with, than with people

Tim Winders: 00:34:23

that call themselves Christians.

Tim Winders: 00:34:25

And, And, I, I think this is, I'm going to lob it over to Andy here.

Tim Winders: 00:34:31

I think that that is kind of the root of this hospitality gift that people have.

Tim Winders: 00:34:39

I don't think that one can be hospitable and be discriminatory.

Tim Winders: 00:34:45

To me, it doesn't

Tim Winders: 00:34:47

seem that way.

Tim Winders: 00:34:47

I mean, I guess we could be maybe choosy, but, and, and it seems as

Tim Winders: 00:34:53

if, and, and my wife has that gift too, that this hospitality has been

Tim Winders: 00:34:58

a gift that you've had, you even talk about food in the book in a way I'm

Tim Winders: 00:35:03

going, this is one of the things I'm saying, my wife's going to love this.

Tim Winders: 00:35:06

I'm going, she just talked about soup in a most beautiful.

Tim Winders: 00:35:11

Descriptive way that I've never heard anyone talk about soup.

Tim Winders: 00:35:15

So anyway, talk about

Tim Winders: 00:35:17

hospitality, Andy, and why it's important and why it fits into this conversation.

Tim Winders: 00:35:24

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Okay.

Tim Winders: 00:35:24

Well, I love what you said.

Tim Winders: 00:35:27

about it because I, I think you really hit the nail on the head.

Tim Winders: 00:35:32

Hospitality is a way of being.

Tim Winders: 00:35:39

So that's, that's where it starts.

Tim Winders: 00:35:41

It's not, I mean, it is a practice and the, and the practice can have so many

Tim Winders: 00:35:49

different kinds of looks depending on who you are and what your situation is and.

Tim Winders: 00:35:55

what your, the fullness of your gifts are, all of that.

Tim Winders: 00:35:59

So no cookie cutter stuff here.

Tim Winders: 00:36:03

And no, I mean, it is a way of being that is throughout the scriptures as a way

Tim Winders: 00:36:11

of life to be hospitable to strangers and to just to all kinds of people.

Tim Winders: 00:36:18

So it's, it starts as.

Tim Winders: 00:36:23

a welcoming presence, I guess.

Tim Winders: 00:36:25

And so that is not discriminatory.

Tim Winders: 00:36:28

That is not narrow.

Tim Winders: 00:36:30

It's not, I have to know who you are and the fullness of your story before I can

Tim Winders: 00:36:36

sit and have a meal with you or a cup of coffee or take a walk or, it's more

Tim Winders: 00:36:42

of, I actually want to know who you are.

Tim Winders: 00:36:46

And I'd like to share myself with you.

Tim Winders: 00:36:48

And I think that is.

Tim Winders: 00:36:50

And then there are obviously the, the feeding and the sheltering parts

Tim Winders: 00:36:55

of hospitality that are, really important, central to who we are, any

Tim Winders: 00:37:01

of us, in some way, So there is that.

Tim Winders: 00:37:04

That part that there is something real and, in the moment and in,

Tim Winders: 00:37:12

on the earth and meeting needs of people in these different ways.

Tim Winders: 00:37:16

But I think that the very beginning is that place of where we start and

Tim Winders: 00:37:22

that is like, I want to know you or I want to be open to knowing you.

Tim Winders: 00:37:27

I want to look at you and I want to see another human being and I want to see

Tim Winders: 00:37:31

all these things that we have in common.

Tim Winders: 00:37:34

and which is our humanity and our needs and our vulnerabilities and some of the

Tim Winders: 00:37:41

greatest times that I can think of are even in our, our previous life or our

Tim Winders: 00:37:50

life now is just as to be with people at a table or over a cup of coffee and not

Tim Winders: 00:37:58

have to have everything figured out about.

Tim Winders: 00:38:02

You know who you are.

Tim Winders: 00:38:03

I don't have to sign off to you.

Tim Winders: 00:38:05

You don't have to sign off to me I'm just interested in who you are and it's a gift

Tim Winders: 00:38:10

if the interest is returned then we can actually have a conversation together and

Tim Winders: 00:38:16

and that's just a really beautiful way to be a human being and I think you're

Tim Winders: 00:38:21

right and that when we Discriminate and say we have to check off boxes before

Tim Winders: 00:38:26

we can be hospitable to somebody It's just, it's such a wrong starting place.

Tim Winders: 00:38:32

It just doesn't have any place, even with that word, I don't think.

Tim Winders: 00:38:37

And there's no biblical precedent for it

Tim Winders: 00:38:39

the, the thing that I kept, this kind of came to my mind a number

Tim Winders: 00:38:44

of times, primarily when I was reading some of the letters that you wrote, Andy

Tim Winders: 00:38:48

was, I kept getting a visual of Jesus.

Tim Winders: 00:38:53

With the woman at the well, and one of the things I've talked to my wife about this,

Tim Winders: 00:38:59

I've tried to repent and all that my voice come across with a very, know it all tone.

Tim Winders: 00:39:12

And, and I have to attempt to soften it or someone might think

Tim Winders: 00:39:19

this guy thinks he knows it all.

Tim Winders: 00:39:21

Even though I don't think that I do, maybe I do.

Tim Winders: 00:39:24

Maybe there's some issues there, but I keep reminding myself of that.

Tim Winders: 00:39:29

That woman at the well, and I even use things like, I really

Tim Winders: 00:39:34

wish we would use more what I call woman at the well language.

Tim Winders: 00:39:40

And, and I kept thinking about it in the book because to me, I kept

Tim Winders: 00:39:45

hearing woman at the well language because if we look at the business

Tim Winders: 00:39:51

world, we don't often get it there.

Tim Winders: 00:39:53

If we look at a lot of relationships, husband, wives, I see some talk to people.

Tim Winders: 00:39:57

I'm wow.

Tim Winders: 00:39:58

Is this your Partner, this is, and, and we definitely, we, see it in

Tim Winders: 00:40:03

the political arena and some of our leaders and, and things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:40:07

So is that, is that a good representation that, that one of the things you're

Tim Winders: 00:40:12

sharing is how Jesus, who, who, if people know the background of the woman at the

Tim Winders: 00:40:17

well and the story, there was every reason for there to be discrimination there.

Tim Winders: 00:40:23

But yet we saw.

Tim Winders: 00:40:27

None is, is, is that, is that a good

Tim Winders: 00:40:30

thing for me to think of when I'm reading through your letters?

Tim Winders: 00:40:33

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I think so.

Tim Winders: 00:40:34

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:40:35

I like that.

Tim Winders: 00:40:37

So that.

Tim Winders: 00:40:37

leads to

Tim Winders: 00:40:38

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: It's, will you give me a drink?

Tim Winders: 00:40:39

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:40:40

And the stages, I mean, it's almost like an outline of the stages of relationship.

Tim Winders: 00:40:48

so you go from the simplicity of can I have a drink to I see you.

Tim Winders: 00:40:55

I see the deepest part

Tim Winders: 00:40:56

Right.

Tim Winders: 00:40:57

So one, one

Tim Winders: 00:40:58

of the things that was intriguing I think I told you all early on that I

Tim Winders: 00:41:01

got, I didn't know a lot about you But I got to know you from reading this

Tim Winders: 00:41:06

book And there were a number of things that were intriguing that I obviously

Tim Winders: 00:41:11

would love to ask more about, but the one thing that I want to do, and I'll

Tim Winders: 00:41:13

let either one of you or both of you tell this, and that is the art house.

Tim Winders: 00:41:20

I saw it early on in the book and then it unfolded a little bit more what it was.

Tim Winders: 00:41:25

And then, and then later I got more of a description of it, but

Tim Winders: 00:41:30

I guess, Andy, if you can start, tell me what the art house is.

Tim Winders: 00:41:36

Was and is, and then maybe Charlie, if you want to chime in after she's done, just

Tim Winders: 00:41:41

because to me, it, I think it speaks to a lot of who the two of you are as much

Tim Winders: 00:41:46

as almost anything is this concept of

Tim Winders: 00:41:49

the art house and what it was.

Tim Winders: 00:41:53

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I'm going to try to make a long story

Tim Winders: 00:41:56

much shorter and say that the art house began with an idea of a place.

Tim Winders: 00:42:09

To gather.

Tim Winders: 00:42:11

And in the beginning, it was more specifically for artists to gather for

Tim Winders: 00:42:16

fellowship, teaching, and hospitality, and to really, connect the dots between

Tim Winders: 00:42:27

biblical faith and daily life and vocation with a, with a more artist centric focus.

Tim Winders: 00:42:37

And then that grew, so it was a place, and it began with an old, at that time,

Tim Winders: 00:42:46

an old Methodist church that was built in 1912, and we bought that place.

Tim Winders: 00:42:54

It was down the street from our house.

Tim Winders: 00:42:55

We had, we were a young family at the time, pretty new to Nashville.

Tim Winders: 00:43:01

And this idea, this longing, this thing that was beginning to take

Tim Winders: 00:43:07

shape, had taken shape in Chucks.

Tim Winders: 00:43:10

journals and in his mind and in his heart and he was feeling called and

Tim Winders: 00:43:16

propelled toward this thing that was kind of difficult to explain but was growing

Tim Winders: 00:43:24

and he was trying to explain it to me and I was kind of like hmm uh I'm not

Tim Winders: 00:43:29

sure what I'm not sure but and then a place became available and we had this

Tim Winders: 00:43:35

kind of wonderful kind of miraculous but really great story which we probably

Tim Winders: 00:43:41

don't have time to tell it but There was this old church, it was down the street

Tim Winders: 00:43:45

from our house, we bought it, and then we started hosting gatherings there.

Tim Winders: 00:43:53

And all kinds of people came, from students at Belmont and

Tim Winders: 00:43:59

Vanderbilt University, older people.

Tim Winders: 00:44:03

And it grew from being a place that was just for artists to being a place

Tim Winders: 00:44:09

where lots of people wanted to come for different kinds of gatherings.

Tim Winders: 00:44:14

and to hear, to hear different authors and speakers and theologians

Tim Winders: 00:44:19

and musicians and filmmakers.

Tim Winders: 00:44:24

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:44:25

So then that was the beginning and we, but then three years after beginning

Tim Winders: 00:44:31

this work, we moved our family in to this place and we, we, what's the right word?

Tim Winders: 00:44:38

Well, we consolidated.

Tim Winders: 00:44:39

We had a separate recording studio.

Tim Winders: 00:44:41

We had a separate home.

Tim Winders: 00:44:43

And, we consolidated everything on this one property so that we were living there

Tim Winders: 00:44:49

and the recording studios were there.

Tim Winders: 00:44:52

And the gathering place for people to come.

Tim Winders: 00:44:54

Yeah, and family life.

Tim Winders: 00:44:56

And so we were, renovating all the time.

Tim Winders: 00:44:58

That's what I was trying to say.

Tim Winders: 00:44:59

so creating this beautiful place, and I was planting gardens, and we were

Tim Winders: 00:45:06

feeding people, we were living there, we were raising our family, we were making

Tim Winders: 00:45:10

records, or Chuck was making records, and there was the, the business part of our

Tim Winders: 00:45:16

life, and everything was all together.

Tim Winders: 00:45:20

But hospitality, this welcome, was at the center of it all.

Tim Winders: 00:45:25

No matter what else was being done or created, hospitality was the center.

Tim Winders: 00:45:33

We're welcoming you into our home, into our studio.

Tim Winders: 00:45:38

So that was like, very core value.

Tim Winders: 00:45:42

And then we lived, we ended up living, almost 25 years in this place.

Tim Winders: 00:45:47

And, and so it grew from just a place to gather to being a place where we had

Tim Winders: 00:45:53

a lot of house guests and dinner guests and studio guests coming inside to

Tim Winders: 00:46:00

have lunch and just all these different things that you could not imagine.

Tim Winders: 00:46:05

set out to, to really know that's what you're creating in

Tim Winders: 00:46:08

the beginning, but that's what it became as God was leading us.

Tim Winders: 00:46:14

And now, so it kind of became this movement.

Tim Winders: 00:46:17

And then some people took this and, and started an art house in Dallas.

Tim Winders: 00:46:24

And then, and that was the Reeves family and, So there's an art house, Dallas,

Tim Winders: 00:46:30

and they just have served Dallas.

Tim Winders: 00:46:33

And so the kind of the central thing is creativity for the common good.

Tim Winders: 00:46:38

That's a little, the little tagline and they do all kinds of things, all

Tim Winders: 00:46:44

kinds of programs and serve their city in lots of different ways.

Tim Winders: 00:46:48

And then in art house north is in St.

Tim Winders: 00:46:52

Paul, Minnesota, and that is run by, by, Sarah Groves and her husband, Troy Groves.

Tim Winders: 00:46:59

And they are in an old church that they have created an art house north

Tim Winders: 00:47:05

and they do all kinds of hosting and gathering and gosh, name some of it.

Tim Winders: 00:47:14

That's great.

Tim Winders: 00:47:14

That's great.

Tim Winders: 00:47:16

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:47:16

Like art house Dallas is they have a, a building, but

Tim Winders: 00:47:20

they're more of a pop up model.

Tim Winders: 00:47:22

So they use a lot of different facilities and, and we're talking

Tim Winders: 00:47:27

like highly organized, the, the whole.

Tim Winders: 00:47:32

Dallas area, the DFW area.

Tim Winders: 00:47:35

I mean, I think they had over 150 events last year.

Tim Winders: 00:47:39

and yeah, Art House North in St.

Tim Winders: 00:47:42

Paul is a little more like the way Art House in Nashville was

Tim Winders: 00:47:46

when Andy and I were running it.

Tim Winders: 00:47:48

and, but they do like theatrical productions.

Tim Winders: 00:47:52

I mean, they have partnerships in the community.

Tim Winders: 00:47:54

with, for a lot of different regions, they do, specific artist care.

Tim Winders: 00:47:59

I mean, they have square dances, which is really cool.

Tim Winders: 00:48:02

songwriters, songwriters, workshops.

Tim Winders: 00:48:05

yeah, yeah, it's, it's quite, extensive

Tim Winders: 00:48:09

The,

Tim Winders: 00:48:09

the reason that's fascinating on multiple levels for me.

Tim Winders: 00:48:13

And one of the things that I've been saying for some time in the role that I'm

Tim Winders: 00:48:18

in is that the closest thing I have seen to what I believe that the early church.

Tim Winders: 00:48:26

And I'm, and I want to make sure I word it that way.

Tim Winders: 00:48:28

So it doesn't come across that.

Tim Winders: 00:48:31

I think I know what I'm talking about because I don't think I

Tim Winders: 00:48:34

do, but my observations as I've traveled and work with companies and

Tim Winders: 00:48:38

startups and things like that, I've observed that coffee shop culture.

Tim Winders: 00:48:45

Startup and coworking spaces, to me, seem to have the vibe that I read about

Tim Winders: 00:48:53

through my eyes in the Book of Acts.

Tim Winders: 00:48:57

And, to contrast that, that somewhat frustrates me when I go into the way most

Tim Winders: 00:49:05

churches are structured in our culture.

Tim Winders: 00:49:09

And also have to say to you guys, the people listening,

Tim Winders: 00:49:12

no, I wasn't saved in a church.

Tim Winders: 00:49:14

I was saved in a business setting.

Tim Winders: 00:49:15

So my paradigm is a bit different than people.

Tim Winders: 00:49:19

I'm not sure that a church setting would have done it.

Tim Winders: 00:49:21

I think I read, Charlie, where a saxophone is, which that's, Got to be a cool story.

Tim Winders: 00:49:25

We don't have time for where someone who was a saxophonist helped you meet

Tim Winders: 00:49:30

Jesus, which, wow, that's, that's cool.

Tim Winders: 00:49:32

But,

Tim Winders: 00:49:33

but to me, and I don't know if this was intentional or if it just

Tim Winders: 00:49:37

formed up the way, the way it did.

Tim Winders: 00:49:39

The art house sounds a lot like the church of the book of acts.

Tim Winders: 00:49:47

Is that correct?

Tim Winders: 00:49:50

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah, I think so.

Tim Winders: 00:49:51

I think there's people, that.

Tim Winders: 00:49:54

It's like, if you're going to have a house church, you got to have

Tim Winders: 00:49:57

somebody who's got the house that, that's going to be like, well, your

Tim Winders: 00:50:01

house is perfect for this, right?

Tim Winders: 00:50:03

and that person's got to be willing, that person's got to

Tim Winders: 00:50:07

be willing to do that, right?

Tim Winders: 00:50:09

And so yes, and, there's that just in terms of the infrastructure and the place

Tim Winders: 00:50:16

and, and then, is this a I mean for us, I mean we wanted to have a place that had

Tim Winders: 00:50:22

some built in magnetism and, and sort of could speak without, without us speaking

Tim Winders: 00:50:29

so that it would say, come in, be welcome.

Tim Winders: 00:50:32

Which, as we know, I mean, that's what good architecture does

Tim Winders: 00:50:37

and, good, groundskeeping and, beautiful gardens and all of that.

Tim Winders: 00:50:41

you step onto a property like that and you Oh, people tend to this,

Tim Winders: 00:50:48

there's, there's already, I just got out of my car and I've already been

Tim Winders: 00:50:52

hit with this wind of intentionality.

Tim Winders: 00:50:55

Right?

Tim Winders: 00:50:55

So maybe I'll be tended to, maybe I'll be cared for, if I keep walking

Tim Winders: 00:51:00

the walk up to the door and see what happens when the door opens.

Tim Winders: 00:51:05

we played with that, I mean, that was very intentional and, and all the art

Tim Winders: 00:51:09

houses, I mean, they all have that kind of aesthetic and, yeah, with, with

Tim Winders: 00:51:16

an emphasis on that, I mean, we have, because we've been in the arts and faith

Tim Winders: 00:51:21

intersection for so long, we've, we've had the opportunity to speak and all kinds of

Tim Winders: 00:51:29

places with all kinds of kinds of people.

Tim Winders: 00:51:32

And I remember, Decades ago, Andy and I having this revelation together

Tim Winders: 00:51:38

about we were at this place speaking on imagination and creativity, right?

Tim Winders: 00:51:43

In the most, like, in the single most unimaginative, uncreative

Tim Winders: 00:51:48

environment possible, right?

Tim Winders: 00:51:51

With so little attention paid to the people who were coming to it,

Tim Winders: 00:51:56

who'd put down their, whatever, 35 bucks for the weekend or, and And we

Tim Winders: 00:52:03

just thought, we'll never do that.

Tim Winders: 00:52:05

We'll go broke if we have to, to, in order to not do that.

Tim Winders: 00:52:09

But that, it's like we're not going to say we profess to believe something

Tim Winders: 00:52:13

and then create the contradiction.

Tim Winders: 00:52:17

So that was just such a good lesson for us.

Tim Winders: 00:52:20

That it, that it, and it's not about having a lot of money.

Tim Winders: 00:52:24

It's, it's really not.

Tim Winders: 00:52:25

I mean, I've saying on a lot of these podcasts that we've done when people

Tim Winders: 00:52:30

talk to me about imagination and creativity and I've said like, one of

Tim Winders: 00:52:34

the most radical things that you can do in creating is creating a mood.

Tim Winders: 00:52:43

it's just setting the stage for good to happen.

Tim Winders: 00:52:46

The way you're greeted, are you greeted?

Tim Winders: 00:52:49

Hopefully.

Tim Winders: 00:52:50

Are you greeted by being known?

Tim Winders: 00:52:52

I mean, we we're grateful to you that you read our book.

Tim Winders: 00:52:56

So that speaks to us, right?

Tim Winders: 00:52:59

That speaks to us to that.

Tim Winders: 00:53:00

We have been known in some way.

Tim Winders: 00:53:02

And so that that prepares our hearts more to be open to you.

Tim Winders: 00:53:08

And that's just the exchange of the way we humans work best together.

Tim Winders: 00:53:14

And when we don't have that, that's when you see things

Tim Winders: 00:53:17

organizations that don't work.

Tim Winders: 00:53:19

Well.

Tim Winders: 00:53:20

I don't care whether it's a huge corporation or it's a five person team.

Tim Winders: 00:53:25

But when you don't have that, I mean, full well from your own work that that's that's

Tim Winders: 00:53:29

one of the first things you've got to fix.

Tim Winders: 00:53:31

What's interesting earlier, Charlie, you mentioned that,

Tim Winders: 00:53:35

especially in the industry you were in, the industry I'm in, really anyone

Tim Winders: 00:53:39

where there's an exchange of money or a possible exchange of money.

Tim Winders: 00:53:44

I've even actually seen this in church settings.

Tim Winders: 00:53:46

Things can become very transactional.

Tim Winders: 00:53:49

It's very transactional in that if I do this for you, you either

Tim Winders: 00:53:54

pay me or you do this for me.

Tim Winders: 00:53:58

And Everything about the tone that, that I feel coming from you, and

Tim Winders: 00:54:03

I'm not, I don't think we're totally pure that, we, we don't do some

Tim Winders: 00:54:08

things or we don't, we're not okay with someone paying us for things.

Tim Winders: 00:54:11

We definitely are.

Tim Winders: 00:54:13

But everything about the tone

Tim Winders: 00:54:14

of this conversation about the book is anti transactional more.

Tim Winders: 00:54:20

communal, anti, business about money, more about love and interacting,

Tim Winders: 00:54:29

which to me, I think that's, I've done deep dives into the kingdom of God.

Tim Winders: 00:54:33

And y'all can tell by my language, the, the contrast between the kingdom

Tim Winders: 00:54:37

of God and the Babylonian system.

Tim Winders: 00:54:39

And, this is dollars and cents over here.

Tim Winders: 00:54:42

This is love.

Tim Winders: 00:54:43

And that was the foundation, I believe of what y'all were, Projecting, I

Tim Winders: 00:54:48

think with your book, I've got a couple more quick things before we wrap up.

Tim Winders: 00:54:52

And one was, I wasn't sure if we'd get down this path, but I saw

Tim Winders: 00:54:58

somewhere, Charlie, that you were, you were really utilizing, AI, or

Tim Winders: 00:55:04

at least you had some AI interest.

Tim Winders: 00:55:07

I hope I read that right.

Tim Winders: 00:55:09

And, and I have two, and I've actually interacted with some Christian groups in

Tim Winders: 00:55:12

the podcasting circles and all that are almost like, scared, afraid, whatever

Tim Winders: 00:55:20

they, they question things like the integrity of someone that is using it.

Tim Winders: 00:55:26

And as a creator, as someone who I think you call yourself a

Tim Winders: 00:55:29

improvisational creator what are your

Tim Winders: 00:55:34

thoughts on AI?

Tim Winders: 00:55:34

And, we don't have.

Tim Winders: 00:55:36

Two hours here.

Tim Winders: 00:55:37

I wish we did, but you know, in a few

Tim Winders: 00:55:39

minutes, talk about where we are with creating things doing things with, with

Tim Winders: 00:55:46

this new tool, I call it a new tool.

Tim Winders: 00:55:48

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: right.

Tim Winders: 00:55:50

Yeah, it is.

Tim Winders: 00:55:50

It is a new tool.

Tim Winders: 00:55:52

yeah, I would direct people to sort of my introduction and talking about this.

Tim Winders: 00:55:58

They can just look at my own podcast, Music and Meaning, and they'll see a,

Tim Winders: 00:56:03

a, an episode on the subject there.

Tim Winders: 00:56:06

But in short, I would say, I have an openness to the new technology.

Tim Winders: 00:56:13

Because that's the way I'm wired.

Tim Winders: 00:56:16

I do have an openness to things and I I don't make sort of like quick

Tim Winders: 00:56:22

judgments, like, oh, that's nonsense, particularly when I see how much people

Tim Winders: 00:56:29

are investing in it and and how much it's it's sort of been like the frog in

Tim Winders: 00:56:35

the pot, I mean, it's been around a long time, and we're already indoctrinated

Tim Winders: 00:56:39

into using a lot of it, right?

Tim Winders: 00:56:42

Whether you call it that or not.

Tim Winders: 00:56:44

I think what's really happened is that people have now woke up

Tim Winders: 00:56:47

to like, we're actually going to call it artificial intelligence.

Tim Winders: 00:56:51

and before they were just calling it Siri, right?

Tim Winders: 00:56:55

They're just talking to Siri.

Tim Winders: 00:56:57

and now, now they know like, Oh, so that's.

Tim Winders: 00:57:00

That's part of this whole artificial intelligence thing.

Tim Winders: 00:57:03

For me, for the music part of it, I'll tell just a very short story.

Tim Winders: 00:57:10

I started out with analog recording, okay, which is, analog tape, This

Tim Winders: 00:57:17

is, it's a magnetic process that imprints the sound on this tape, right?

Tim Winders: 00:57:23

So most of anybody who is 60 years and older who's ever owned a

Tim Winders: 00:57:28

cassette, knows this process, right?

Tim Winders: 00:57:32

Well, then we move to moving around ones and zeros on a computer,

Tim Winders: 00:57:38

which is the way all music is made today with very few exceptions.

Tim Winders: 00:57:42

Transcribed and then we, of course, there's a whole group

Tim Winders: 00:57:45

of baby boomers and Gen Xers out there who listen to CDs, right?

Tim Winders: 00:57:50

And now we just stream.

Tim Winders: 00:57:53

And when you're streaming, you're just streaming the same kind of

Tim Winders: 00:57:56

data that was embedded in a CD.

Tim Winders: 00:57:59

So I tell just a little bit of that to help listeners see that this

Tim Winders: 00:58:03

is just a big potpourri of, of.

Tim Winders: 00:58:06

these interchangeable technologies that we're playing with and mixing up.

Tim Winders: 00:58:11

And now what we have with the possibility with AI, from a musical standpoint, is

Tim Winders: 00:58:17

I can literally take your mp3, right, of, that you recorded on your voice memo

Tim Winders: 00:58:26

of your grandchild's birthday party, I can find your grandchild's voice and

Tim Winders: 00:58:32

you're saying, Oh, I just hate that.

Tim Winders: 00:58:33

I can't hear her telling us.

Tim Winders: 00:58:35

Thank you for that birthday gift.

Tim Winders: 00:58:37

Well, I can go in isolate that voice.

Tim Winders: 00:58:40

Now, pull it out, raise the volume of it, put it back into the

Tim Winders: 00:58:45

recording and hand it to grandpa.

Tim Winders: 00:58:48

And now they've got their grandchild's voice saying, oh Papa.

Tim Winders: 00:58:52

Thank you so much.

Tim Winders: 00:58:53

I love this bicycle.

Tim Winders: 00:58:56

Right?

Tim Winders: 00:58:56

So there's a lot of just small practical ways that the technology of artificial

Tim Winders: 00:59:04

intelligence will be used in helpful ways.

Tim Winders: 00:59:08

It is going to undermine some jobs.

Tim Winders: 00:59:12

Like I'll give you one example and then we'll just move off of it.

Tim Winders: 00:59:15

But for example, if you're a musician who produces sort of low hanging fruit music.

Tim Winders: 00:59:22

That's, that's under bed music on a TV show.

Tim Winders: 00:59:26

And you're used to getting like 500 to 750 for a 20 second, 30 second

Tim Winders: 00:59:33

clip of music that you can't quite hear, but it's supposed to sound like

Tim Winders: 00:59:37

a rock band from the 1970s, right?

Tim Winders: 00:59:40

You're not going to have a gig anymore.

Tim Winders: 00:59:42

There's going to be one person who just simply uses all this artificial

Tim Winders: 00:59:47

intelligence to produce that music and they're going to have like,

Tim Winders: 00:59:52

VP of AI at ABC television, right?

Tim Winders: 00:59:56

And they'll have a couple of helpers and they'll do all the music

Tim Winders: 00:59:59

for it for that level of music.

Tim Winders: 01:00:02

But it doesn't mean that they're still not going to go license some big song

Tim Winders: 01:00:06

or some new hit song or like that.

Tim Winders: 01:00:09

But it's those little pieces that like we use music all the time, but

Tim Winders: 01:00:13

we're not really listening to it.

Tim Winders: 01:00:15

So anything like that is probably going to be going to be replaced by AI in some way.

Tim Winders: 01:00:21

And not only that, Andy, I know,

Tim Winders: 01:00:23

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: That's that's my introduction to

Tim Winders: 01:00:25

And I, I I'm using it quite often and I tell people I'm

Tim Winders: 01:00:32

using it as a brainstorming partner and a writing assistant because, we

Tim Winders: 01:00:37

create quite a bit from, of content from these And, and then we feed it

Tim Winders: 01:00:45

through some tools that we have, and it creates some, small content items.

Tim Winders: 01:00:51

And I'm still overseeing it all.

Tim Winders: 01:00:54

It's still part of,

Tim Winders: 01:00:56

but you know, it kind of, it kind of brings me to the last question.

Tim Winders: 01:01:00

I'll go, I'll go with you, Andy, and then we'll wrap up here and talk

Tim Winders: 01:01:03

about how people can find the book.

Tim Winders: 01:01:06

It does, At times make me ask, what am I creating for?

Tim Winders: 01:01:15

Who am I creating for?

Tim Winders: 01:01:17

And is something like the writing process more for me, or is it for

Tim Winders: 01:01:23

the person that I'm writing it for?

Tim Winders: 01:01:26

So just kind of, I'm just curious.

Tim Winders: 01:01:29

Cause obviously, Andy, I, I told you, I loved your writing.

Tim Winders: 01:01:34

I felt as if I was able to really get to know you with that.

Tim Winders: 01:01:40

Who do you write for?

Tim Winders: 01:01:42

Do you write for you?

Tim Winders: 01:01:43

Were you writing for me?

Tim Winders: 01:01:44

Were you writing for someone?

Tim Winders: 01:01:46

What's, what, what is that as, as we finish up here?

Tim Winders: 01:01:51

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah.

Tim Winders: 01:01:52

What's the The beginning of writing for me is that I'm writing out of this deep

Tim Winders: 01:01:58

sense of I have to write if I don't write somewhere And that could be in

Tim Winders: 01:02:05

a journal it could be something that is not meant for somebody else, but in

Tim Winders: 01:02:11

this particular book, obviously I was I was writing for the the publishing

Tim Winders: 01:02:18

company that we'd signed to But prior to that, I had written a lot of these

Tim Winders: 01:02:24

different parts of what ended up being the, what ended up in the book.

Tim Winders: 01:02:30

I had written them along the way of my life for just for a blog that

Tim Winders: 01:02:38

we had or for a magazine or for just my own self, kind of because I

Tim Winders: 01:02:45

need to write my way through life.

Tim Winders: 01:02:49

as a response to life and to understand what's going on.

Tim Winders: 01:02:55

So it's kind of, it's all that.

Tim Winders: 01:02:57

And it becomes narrowed.

Tim Winders: 01:02:59

If, if I'm writing it, definitely for a book, then I don't really

Tim Winders: 01:03:04

know who's going to buy the book.

Tim Winders: 01:03:07

So it's still a place of I'm sitting at my desk and I'm

Tim Winders: 01:03:11

asking God to direct my writing.

Tim Winders: 01:03:15

And, and then also I'm writing out as out of a sense of I love to do that.

Tim Winders: 01:03:21

I can't not do this in some form.

Tim Winders: 01:03:26

I would say connecting back to the AI conversation in terms of

Tim Winders: 01:03:31

artistry and the, the writer's voice, Andy is a perfect example of

Tim Winders: 01:03:39

the writer who should not use AI.

Tim Winders: 01:03:43

In other words, if we're going to have all of this AI doing different things, we want

Tim Winders: 01:03:48

to, we want to have Andy Ashworth in the world that we can come back to and say,

Tim Winders: 01:03:54

like, okay, this is just pure writing as self discovery with the community in mind,

Tim Winders: 01:04:04

and I can come to this writing and receive something that I can't get anywhere else.

Tim Winders: 01:04:10

And so I believe that very strongly not just for her writing,

Tim Winders: 01:04:13

but for all kinds of artistry.

Tim Winders: 01:04:17

And then just as much as I believe that for you, if you told me you said,

Tim Winders: 01:04:22

look, I always know that it's I want 500 words as my introduction and we

Tim Winders: 01:04:27

have a general way that we do it.

Tim Winders: 01:04:29

So I start with, an AI template that I do and then I start.

Tim Winders: 01:04:35

Adapting language from there.

Tim Winders: 01:04:37

I'd be like, yeah, that makes perfect sense,

Tim Winders: 01:04:40

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 01:04:40

And I,

Tim Winders: 01:04:41

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: and, and there'd be no, like,

Tim Winders: 01:04:42

there'd be no negative judgment.

Tim Winders: 01:04:43

It'd be like, who your audience is.

Tim Winders: 01:04:45

You're, you're doing it every week.

Tim Winders: 01:04:47

You want it to have a certain tone.

Tim Winders: 01:04:48

It already has.

Tim Winders: 01:04:49

It's like, why, why mess with it?

Tim Winders: 01:04:52

You're just, you're going to do some plug and play of information, right?

Tim Winders: 01:04:56

And then you're going to add more to it.

Tim Winders: 01:04:58

That's going to be personal and all of that.

Tim Winders: 01:05:01

And that's something that AI can help us do,

Tim Winders: 01:05:04

and I think the message part of y'all's message in the book

Tim Winders: 01:05:07

is there's room for all of that.

Tim Winders: 01:05:10

we don't necessarily, and, and we do know, here's what we know about a tool like AI.

Tim Winders: 01:05:16

There will be people that abuse it.

Tim Winders: 01:05:18

Every technology that has ever existed, there has been abuse.

Tim Winders: 01:05:24

And, but we know that it's not as if that should

Tim Winders: 01:05:28

surprise us.

Tim Winders: 01:05:29

And so that doesn't mean we're fearful of it or any, anything like that.

Tim Winders: 01:05:34

You brought up something, Charlie, I think in one of the letters that you wrote, and

Tim Winders: 01:05:38

I kind of linked it together with what.

Tim Winders: 01:05:40

Andy was just saying, and that is for me, when I'm purely writing, not writing as

Tim Winders: 01:05:48

a tool for getting information out to a large group of people or different things

Tim Winders: 01:05:51

like that, if I, when I'm purely writing, it is impossible for me to multitask

Tim Winders: 01:05:59

and multitasking is I've realized

Tim Winders: 01:06:02

for me, I need to do less of it, even though I think I'm good at it.

Tim Winders: 01:06:08

I don't need to.

Tim Winders: 01:06:10

Do that as much.

Tim Winders: 01:06:11

I think you even said that right, Charlie.

Tim Winders: 01:06:14

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I my point in the book was that I

Tim Winders: 01:06:16

thought I was really good at it.

Tim Winders: 01:06:19

But you learn after a time that that you may be getting one thing

Tim Winders: 01:06:25

really really good and the other three things you're juggling or

Tim Winders: 01:06:28

approximations, they're good enough.

Tim Winders: 01:06:31

It's because you're highly skilled, right?

Tim Winders: 01:06:34

So they're good enough to get by and they do their work, they do their job,

Tim Winders: 01:06:38

but they don't have that pinnacle of excellence, like the one thing if you're

Tim Winders: 01:06:43

just sitting down and concentrating on it.

Tim Winders: 01:06:45

And it's, it's actually one of the reasons why I love what

Tim Winders: 01:06:49

I am doing here and with writing it's, it's like, I Charlie and Andy

Tim Winders: 01:06:56

for 60 minutes is my singular focus.

Tim Winders: 01:07:01

And, and that I believe, unfortunately, I love what y'all talked about with

Tim Winders: 01:07:05

the art house and other things that unfortunately, even with all the tools we

Tim Winders: 01:07:10

have to connect with people, we're really connecting with less quality in many ways.

Tim Winders: 01:07:15

So I love that.

Tim Winders: 01:07:17

One

Tim Winders: 01:07:17

of the things I love, let's go back.

Tim Winders: 01:07:19

Kind of start wrapping here.

Tim Winders: 01:07:20

I, when I'm reading through this, I'm really wanting to ask the

Tim Winders: 01:07:25

question of two people that have had extremely rich lives, rich careers,

Tim Winders: 01:07:31

again, almost 50 years of marriage.

Tim Winders: 01:07:33

I'm kind of wanting to ask, how are you defining success now?

Tim Winders: 01:07:39

And you, Did it somewhat in the book, but I'm going to let you verbally tell

Tim Winders: 01:07:43

me because it could be a little bit different verbally than it is in writing.

Tim Winders: 01:07:47

So Andy, maybe first for you, how are you defining success right now?

Tim Winders: 01:07:51

And then Charlie will jump to you.

Tim Winders: 01:07:52

And then I've got a couple of questions we'll wrap up with.

Tim Winders: 01:07:55

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: success for me is I think when

Tim Winders: 01:08:00

I am at my best, I'm coming back to the fact that I am grateful.

Tim Winders: 01:08:11

I think that, that we're together, that we have people who love us

Tim Winders: 01:08:18

and that we have people to love.

Tim Winders: 01:08:21

I'm grateful that.

Tim Winders: 01:08:23

I do get to write, which is a really important thing to me.

Tim Winders: 01:08:28

And, it's those kinds of things that make me feel a kind of success

Tim Winders: 01:08:35

that is not a numbers thing.

Tim Winders: 01:08:39

It's not quantifiable.

Tim Winders: 01:08:42

I can't measure it.

Tim Winders: 01:08:44

There's no possibility of measuring.

Tim Winders: 01:08:47

So I think if, if I leave from this life onto the next life and I really

Tim Winders: 01:08:57

have a central goal, like if my children and my grandchildren know and are

Tim Winders: 01:09:02

sure of that they are deeply loved and that we have loved them and I have

Tim Winders: 01:09:08

loved them, like that will be success.

Tim Winders: 01:09:10

That will be That will be a fruitfulness and or that other people have been

Tim Winders: 01:09:18

felt loved and cared for and you know The relational part of things is in

Tim Winders: 01:09:24

place That's where I feel fruitful grateful and also I also can't be

Tim Winders: 01:09:32

the one who measures that so that's kind of like a Resting place of

Tim Winders: 01:09:37

that's kind of great because yeah,

Tim Winders: 01:09:41

an eternal measurement,

Tim Winders: 01:09:42

not there's an eternal measurement, not a, my wife and I've been focusing

Tim Winders: 01:09:46

on attempting to understand eternity more, knowing full well that we can't.

Tim Winders: 01:09:54

But part of that feeds into that answer.

Tim Winders: 01:09:56

That was a great answer there.

Tim Winders: 01:09:57

Charlie, how about you?

Tim Winders: 01:09:58

How are you defining success now?

Tim Winders: 01:10:01

Or what do you want to say about success?

Tim Winders: 01:10:02

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah, really similar to, to Andy.

Tim Winders: 01:10:07

I have achieved all of the worlds, in my, in my small music world, I've

Tim Winders: 01:10:14

achieved all of the, the mountaintop awards and experiences that are available

Tim Winders: 01:10:23

and, grateful for those, that's, that's the world standards of success

Tim Winders: 01:10:28

according to the music business, and, But I'm also at a point in my maturity

Tim Winders: 01:10:33

is that if, if I would continue to be driven by those things, I would

Tim Winders: 01:10:39

be a man who hadn't learned anything.

Tim Winders: 01:10:42

And so the, I'm, I'm grateful, but I'm also like Andy, I just want my kids to

Tim Winders: 01:10:54

love and respect me and my grandkids.

Tim Winders: 01:10:58

and I want them all to know how deeply they're loved.

Tim Winders: 01:11:00

And, and I, I want to, leave my time here in this part of my mission, as I leave

Tim Winders: 01:11:13

for the next part, I just want to leave.

Tim Winders: 01:11:15

I don't want to have any enemies.

Tim Winders: 01:11:17

I don't, I want to have all men's made.

Tim Winders: 01:11:23

I want to like, Clean up and throw away a lot of stuff that I don't need.

Tim Winders: 01:11:28

I don't want to leave my kids.

Tim Winders: 01:11:31

And mostly I just want, at the end of the day, I want Andy and, and

Tim Winders: 01:11:38

my kids and grandkids and everybody who knows me to just say, Oh yeah,

Tim Winders: 01:11:43

no, he was definitely with Jesus.

Tim Winders: 01:11:45

Yeah,

Tim Winders: 01:11:46

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: He was, he was definitely, if there

Tim Winders: 01:11:49

was a Christian, then he definitely,

Tim Winders: 01:11:52

I, I think that's good.

Tim Winders: 01:11:53

And, for those of us that attempt to measure things, I'm an engineer

Tim Winders: 01:11:58

by training and that's like, man, how, how do we quantify

Tim Winders: 01:12:03

things that are not quantifiable?

Tim Winders: 01:12:07

I think that's the thing that's so fascinating to me.

Tim Winders: 01:12:09

And so the, both of the responses and my wife and I've been

Tim Winders: 01:12:13

through like all couples ups and downs and things like that.

Tim Winders: 01:12:17

And the thing that we say over and over again is that we wouldn't wish our journey

Tim Winders: 01:12:23

on anyone, but we're so thankful that we've been through it because it's, it's

Tim Winders: 01:12:28

who we are and it's how you end up with a

Tim Winders: 01:12:30

book.

Tim Winders: 01:12:30

Like you guys have why everything that doesn't matter matters so much.

Tim Winders: 01:12:35

The way of love in a world.

Tim Winders: 01:12:38

I've heard excellent book.

Tim Winders: 01:12:39

Like I said, I rarely recommend books to my wife.

Tim Winders: 01:12:42

I'm recommending this.

Tim Winders: 01:12:44

And it's when I finish it, I've got it on my Kindle right here.

Tim Winders: 01:12:47

I finished it earlier and, my wife will be reading that.

Tim Winders: 01:12:51

So appreciate you writing that we are,

Tim Winders: 01:12:54

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Thank you

Tim Winders: 01:12:55

we are seek, go create those three words.

Tim Winders: 01:12:58

My final question here, before I do a wrap up, seek, go or create,

Tim Winders: 01:13:02

I'm going to allow you or force you depending on your personality.

Tim Winders: 01:13:06

And with the two of you, it could be one of you says, Oh, he's going to

Tim Winders: 01:13:09

force me and the other one might say, he's going to allow me, I won't tell

Tim Winders: 01:13:12

you which one I think it is, but, I'm going to allow you or force you to pick

Tim Winders: 01:13:16

one word, seek, go or create just real quick, which one do you choose and why,

Tim Winders: 01:13:19

and don't overthink it, this is not like a scientific things, seek, go or

Tim Winders: 01:13:23

create, Andy, which one do you choose?

Tim Winders: 01:13:26

Choose and why, why seek?

Tim Winders: 01:13:32

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: it's my starting place.

Tim Winders: 01:13:34

Seek, and then create, and then go, probably in that order.

Tim Winders: 01:13:41

Very good.

Tim Winders: 01:13:42

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah.

Tim Winders: 01:13:42

But seek is first.

Tim Winders: 01:13:44

cause I want to know, I want God to, yeah, I just, I, I need to seek first.

Tim Winders: 01:13:51

you.

Tim Winders: 01:13:51

Very good.

Tim Winders: 01:13:51

How about you,

Tim Winders: 01:13:52

Charlie?

Tim Winders: 01:13:52

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: think people who, yeah, I think

Tim Winders: 01:13:54

people who know, maybe some of your listeners that know my work would

Tim Winders: 01:13:59

think that I'm going to pick create.

Tim Winders: 01:14:01

But I'm gonna pick seek to, seek is the starting place for everything.

Tim Winders: 01:14:07

I love that.

Tim Winders: 01:14:08

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Seek ye first the kingdom of

Tim Winders: 01:14:10

and there's a reason

Tim Winders: 01:14:11

that they're in the order that they're in and y'all could probably guess that.

Tim Winders: 01:14:17

Andy and Charlie, I've enjoyed this so much.

Tim Winders: 01:14:20

the book again is why everything that doesn't matter matters so much.

Tim Winders: 01:14:25

And I love the tagline, the way of love.

Tim Winders: 01:14:29

In a world of hurt, we need more messages like this.

Tim Winders: 01:14:33

I encourage everyone to get the book.

Tim Winders: 01:14:35

Thanks for listening in.

Tim Winders: 01:14:37

This has been a great conversation.

Tim Winders: 01:14:38

I've enjoyed it.

Tim Winders: 01:14:39

We do have new episodes every Monday here at Seek Go Create.

Tim Winders: 01:14:43

And, I just encourage you to subscribe, follow, leave reviews,

Tim Winders: 01:14:47

all of those things, because they help us get messages like this out.

Tim Winders: 01:14:53

So again, thanks for listening in until next time, continue being all.

Tim Winders: 01:14:59

That you were created to be.