Episode 53
We Tried to Legislate What Only the Spirit Can Grow
Can laws and politics ever truly shape the heart and spirit of a community? This episode of Seek Go Create explores why the qualities that transform lives—like love, patience, and kindness—can’t be legislated or enforced from the outside. The discussion dives into the temptation to look for visible power and political victories, revealing how real change only grows from within through the work of the Spirit. If you've ever wondered about the limits of government in shaping true character and what it means to live faithfully in a divided world, this conversation is for you.
"Government cannot create kingdom life. That belongs to another source." - Tim Winders
Access all show and episode resources HERE
Episode Resources:
- NT90 Hub – This is the central website for the 90-day New Testament reading plan, with downloadable, printable plans, background information, and links to all episodes and resources.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Politics Can’t Grow Fruit
00:35 Series Intro and NT90 Plan
02:08 Government’s Limits
03:17 Why Visible Power Tempts
05:48 Galatians 5 Fruit Test
07:48 Restraint vs Transformation
11:16 Stop Asking Caesar
14:53 Early Church Under Rome
19:53 Kingdom Witness Today
21:01 Final Challenge and Wrap
Transcript
You can pass a law, you cannot pass patience.
Speaker:You can win an election, you cannot elect love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness,
Speaker:faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control.
Speaker:You can force behavior, you cannot grow fruit by force.
Speaker:That is the problem with asking politics to do the work of the Holy Spirit
Speaker:hello, everyone.
Speaker:Welcome to Seek Go Create.
Speaker:I am Tim Winders, and we are finishing up sort of a four little
Speaker:part thing on the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:I am getting all of this that I'm currently recording and working on
Speaker:now from some work that I've done for some time now with the New Testament,
Speaker:putting the New Testament in the order that it was written into a reading
Speaker:plan so I could read it myself, and now it's available for you to do it also.
Speaker:So, um, I've read this.
Speaker:Man, it is so good.
Speaker:If you haven't started and haven't done it, please go do it.
Speaker:I think many people are doing it.
Speaker:I'm getting some great feedback.
Speaker:And so, go take a look at this.
Speaker:You can actually get it yourself.
Speaker:I made it available.
Speaker:All you have to do is go to k2m.foundation/nt90, k2m.foundation/nt90,
Speaker:and it's a pretty meaty, like a 10-page with a lot of extra stuff download.
Speaker:I do believe there's a lite version that's just a few pages, just
Speaker:has the scriptures and how it's divided up and the dates and stuff.
Speaker:But I think it'll be helpful for you to get the context, a lot of the
Speaker:historical things and some notes that kinda really help you immerse yourself
Speaker:in that first century, which is what I've been doing now for some time,
Speaker:and it has been really, really cool.
Speaker:In the last episode, we talked about church structures.
Speaker:We said a building can serve the people, but it cannot replace the spirit.
Speaker:Program can support life, but it cannot create life.
Speaker:A leader can help shepherd, but they cannot become the mediator.
Speaker:The same is true in politics.
Speaker:Government can serve certain public goods.
Speaker:It can restrain evil in ways.
Speaker:It can also be used by God.
Speaker:We've seen that.
Speaker:It can create order.
Speaker:It can protect people from harm.
Speaker:Those things matter.
Speaker:But government cannot create kingdom life.
Speaker:That belongs to another source, and that is where this episode begins.
Speaker:Religion is not God's kingdom.
Speaker:Neither is Rome, and that is what causes political confusion.
Speaker:This episode asks the spirit question underneath it, why do we keep trying to
Speaker:legislate what only the spirit can grow?
Speaker:Now, let's talk a little bit, I've shared this before, but just a little bit here on
Speaker:why politics becomes so important to us.
Speaker:It gives us things that we can see.
Speaker:They are visible.
Speaker:Laws, courts, elections, parties, platforms, campaigns,
Speaker:money, messaging, power.
Speaker:Those levers produce visible results.
Speaker:We can touch them.
Speaker:They're tangible.
Speaker:A law changes.
Speaker:Yay, we win.
Speaker:A court rules on a hearing.
Speaker:We can see that.
Speaker:That's good.
Speaker:A candidate wins, a policy shifts, a headline moves.
Speaker:The kingdom often does not look that measurable.
Speaker:It's more behind the scenes.
Speaker:A person forgives, a neighbor serves, a family reconciles, a believer
Speaker:refuses to hate an enemy, a business owner tells the truth when lying
Speaker:would profit more, a church includes someone who cannot repay them.
Speaker:They open their doors instead of closing their doors.
Speaker:Those things do not always make the news.
Speaker:So politics just feels stronger.
Speaker:It is not stronger.
Speaker:It is just easier to see.
Speaker:It's more visible.
Speaker:That is one of the great temptations of visible power.
Speaker:It gives us feedback quickly.
Speaker:You know who won, you know who lost, you know what passed, you know what failed.
Speaker:But the spirit often forms people quietly.
Speaker:It's more of an inside thing.
Speaker:You know, it actually isn't doing it in a weak way or
Speaker:weakly, it's just quiet about it.
Speaker:A patient person may not trend.
Speaker:You may not see that.
Speaker:I know there's been so many things that have formed up on the inside of
Speaker:me that are not visible and but they're there, and that's what the spirit does.
Speaker:A merciful business owner may not make headlines.
Speaker:A forgiving neighbor may not change the national conversation, but the
Speaker:kingdom is growing there in the places that Rome does not know how to count
Speaker:Galatians 5 again, we've gone here often.
Speaker:It gives us a simple test.
Speaker:Paul names the works of the flesh; hostility, strife, jealousy,
Speaker:fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy.
Speaker:Then he names the fruit of the spirit; love, joy, peace, patience,
Speaker:kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
Speaker:Now, let's look at the political religion or the political space.
Speaker:Which list does it usually sound like?
Speaker:That question is not partisan.
Speaker:That's not Republican or Democrat.
Speaker:It is scriptural.
Speaker:If our political strategy produces anger, strife, factions, contempt, and fear,
Speaker:then we should not call it kingdom work just because it uses Christian words
Speaker:of scripture, or we put a sticker with Jesus or the sign of the fish on it.
Speaker:Fruit matters.
Speaker:The New Testament tells us that.
Speaker:This is not about whether Christians can or should vote.
Speaker:Of course, you can vote.
Speaker:Do what you want.
Speaker:If you wanna run for office, do that.
Speaker:This is not about whether Christians can or should hold office.
Speaker:Sure, of course, they can serve in public life.
Speaker:That could be their job.
Speaker:It could be what they're called to do.
Speaker:It's not about whether laws matter.
Speaker:Laws are important.
Speaker:They matter.
Speaker:The question is deeper.
Speaker:It's what kind of people are being formed.
Speaker:If our political engagement makes us less loving, less patient, less gentle, less
Speaker:self-controlled, and less faithful, then something's wrong underneath the surface.
Speaker:We may be winning something, but it is not kingdom fruit.
Speaker:The Spirit produces a different kind of life, and that life cannot
Speaker:be forced from the outside in
Speaker:Government is not nothing.
Speaker:It's not like just a set aside.
Speaker:It does exist.
Speaker:It has power in this world.
Speaker:The New Testament does not require us to pretend public order does not matter.
Speaker:Romans 13 gives government a limited role in restraining wrongdoing
Speaker:and maintaining public order.
Speaker:Government can restrain violence.
Speaker:Government can protect the vulnerable.
Speaker:Government can punish wrongdoing.
Speaker:Government can build roads.
Speaker:Government can establish certain rights.
Speaker:Government can limit certain harms.
Speaker:We also know that God can use governments and leaders and armies even.
Speaker:We've seen that in Scripture.
Speaker:Those things matter.
Speaker:Christians can serve in public life with integrity.
Speaker:And like I said earlier, they can vote, they can advocate,
Speaker:they can work for better laws.
Speaker:They can seek justice where harm is being done.
Speaker:They can speak truth in public.
Speaker:They can use their influence responsibly.
Speaker:But we should not confuse restraint with transformation.
Speaker:A law can limit harm.
Speaker:It cannot make something new.
Speaker:A court can issue a ruling.
Speaker:It cannot produce repentance.
Speaker:A government can protect religious liberty.
Speaker:It cannot make the church faithful.
Speaker:A policy can create order.
Speaker:It cannot create love.
Speaker:The Spirit does that.
Speaker:Romans 13 can help us understand public order, but it never says
Speaker:government can create new hearts.
Speaker:This distinction matters because when we ask government to do what
Speaker:only the Spirit can do, we overload government and weaken the church.
Speaker:Government becomes too important.
Speaker:We elevate it.
Speaker:We put it too high on a pedestal.
Speaker:We put too much pressure on it, pressure that it can never, ever meet.
Speaker:The church becomes too anxious when we're told to be anxious for nothing.
Speaker:We become anxious when all of a sudden an election is coming up.
Speaker:The election cycle becomes too powerful.
Speaker:That's for countries that have it.
Speaker:Some places don't even have it.
Speaker:And the Spirit, though, becomes strangely optional government
Speaker:cannot create disciples.
Speaker:Government cannot make enemies or really even people love each other.
Speaker:Government cannot really produce repentance or any of that.
Speaker:It cannot form mercy.
Speaker:Government cannot make a nation the kingdom of God.
Speaker:I'll even argue that a government cannot really be a nation under God,
Speaker:even though the country that many of us live in adds that to our, tagline.
Speaker:When we ask government to do those things, we overload the structure.
Speaker:Then we get angry when it fails, and we often think God has failed or,
Speaker:Christianity has failed or something.
Speaker:We just-- We're, we're trying to make it do things that it cannot and
Speaker:never should have been asked to do.
Speaker:It was never designed or created for that.
Speaker:But what if the thing we keep asking politics to change is not
Speaker:located in the political domain?
Speaker:What if the problem is in the heart?
Speaker:What if the fruit we need is spirit-formed?
Speaker:What if the kingdom grows by presence, witness, mercy, forgiveness, courage,
Speaker:truth, and the all-important love Then no election, no government, no
Speaker:government leader can replace that.
Speaker:No law can manufacture that, no party can own it, and no empire can control that.
Speaker:What happens when we forget the Spirit or we push it aside?
Speaker:When we forget the Spirit, we demand more from those power structures,
Speaker:more laws, more control, more outrage, more winning, more court cases, more
Speaker:political loyalty, more fear about the next election, more anxiety.
Speaker:Then the emotional life of the church gets tied to the election
Speaker:cycle or the leader or the person.
Speaker:If our side wins, God is moving.
Speaker:If our side loses, the devil must be winning.
Speaker:If our candidate wins, the country has been saved.
Speaker:If our candidate loses, the country is doomed.
Speaker:The more we forget the Spirit, the more we ask Caesar to produce the fruit.
Speaker:That has never worked, and we've got 2,000 years to prove it.
Speaker:It's not as if it's gonna start working now.
Speaker:It never has and it never will.
Speaker:We've got to stop forcing that.
Speaker:We've seen this pattern before.
Speaker:Rome could not produce kingdom life.
Speaker:The post-Constantine church could not produce it through power, and the American
Speaker:church is facing the same temptation now.
Speaker:The Spirit forms a people who can live the kingdom inside any structure,
Speaker:inside any institution, inside any empire or situation, period.
Speaker:We've seen that throughout history also.
Speaker:Politics tries to make the empire look like the kingdom from the outside in.
Speaker:Those are not the same thing.
Speaker:One begins with presence, the other begins with control.
Speaker:One forms people, the other manages and forces attempts to force behavior.
Speaker:One grows fruit, the other enforces outcomes, usually poorly too, by the way.
Speaker:Again, government has a role.
Speaker:I'm not anti-government.
Speaker:I am of the political belief that government should be a little bit
Speaker:smaller, but that's a whole nother topic.
Speaker:Government does have a role, but it is not the role of the Holy Spirit The better
Speaker:question to ask, the question is really not how do we make government Christian?
Speaker:The better question is how do spirit-filled people live faithfully
Speaker:inside whatever government or institutional structure
Speaker:that they happen to inhabit?
Speaker:That question fits the New Testament.
Speaker:We've got the example.
Speaker:It's right there for us.
Speaker:In Acts 1, Jesus sends his followers as witnesses by the Spirit, not as
Speaker:people trying to take over Rome.
Speaker:The early believers lived under Rome, one of the most powerful,
Speaker:domineering, controlling, and violent
Speaker:and unbiblical, by the way, empires or structures that has ever governed.
Speaker:That's what we have with our New Testament.
Speaker:That's what they lived under.
Speaker:That's the example that we have.
Speaker:They were not trying to take Rome over, or they really weren't
Speaker:even trying to change things.
Speaker:They were learning to live as citizens of another kingdom while Rome was still Rome.
Speaker:Jesus said it plainly in John 18, "His kingdom is not from this world.
Speaker:It's not of this world." That is not withdrawal, and it's not denial.
Speaker:That is the witness.
Speaker:Faithful, patient, courageous, unimpressed by power, unafraid of suffering.
Speaker:They prayed.
Speaker:They shared.
Speaker:They forgave.
Speaker:They cared for widows and orphans.
Speaker:They preached Jesus.
Speaker:They refused to worship Caesar.
Speaker:They did not bow the knee that everyone else was bowing.
Speaker:They honored what could be honored.
Speaker:They resisted what had to be resisted.
Speaker:They suffered when faithfulness required it.
Speaker:They did not need Rome to become the kingdom in order to live the kingdom life.
Speaker:That is our challenge.
Speaker:That is our example.
Speaker:Can we vote without worshiping the outcome or worshiping the
Speaker:leader that we're voting for?
Speaker:Can we advocate without hating the opponent?
Speaker:Can we serve in public life without confusing public
Speaker:office with kingdom authority?
Speaker:Can we care about laws without pretending laws can produce new creation life?
Speaker:Can we live as spirit-filled people inside a country like America
Speaker:without making America the kingdom, without putting America on such a
Speaker:pedestal and calling it God's nation?
Speaker:That is a cleaner question that we should be asking.
Speaker:And we've got to admit, it's kind of harder.
Speaker:You know, it's simple, but it's not easy Let's look at what all of this
Speaker:meant for the early Christians.
Speaker:First Christians lived under an empire without any political control.
Speaker:They were the outsiders of all outsiders.
Speaker:They had no vote.
Speaker:They didn't vote then.
Speaker:They had little legal protection and no power to make Rome conform to Jesus.
Speaker:And then every once in a while, they had their leaders
Speaker:martyred or crucified or beheaded.
Speaker:What would that do for you if the group you were in, they
Speaker:were taking your leaders out?
Speaker:So the Spirit formed them into a people who could witness to Jesus and about
Speaker:Jesus inside Rome without becoming Rome.
Speaker:Their power was not control, it was presence, faithfulness,
Speaker:love, endurance, and courage.
Speaker:How do we mess that up?
Speaker:How do we take that text or what we think it is and mess it up when we bring it
Speaker:forward into our time, 2,000 years later?
Speaker:We often read the New Testament as if political access would
Speaker:have improved the mission.
Speaker:But the apostles never make that argument.
Speaker:Doing what we do now politically is not scriptural.
Speaker:It is not in the Bible, and I'm not saying it's wrong.
Speaker:There are things that we most likely should be doing.
Speaker:I'm just telling you, don't confuse it.
Speaker:It is not in the Bible.
Speaker:We do not have that example.
Speaker:Acts 1 points to the Spirit-empowered witness, and 1 Peter 2 speaks to
Speaker:believers living honorably under the empire, not changing the
Speaker:empire, living under the empire.
Speaker:They call people to witness holiness, love, endurance, prayer, generosity, and
Speaker:allegiance to the King, Jesus Christ.
Speaker:When we make political control the strategy, we replace spirit-formed witness
Speaker:with empire-shaped and influenced power.
Speaker:What does it still mean for us?
Speaker:It goes back to this.
Speaker:Almost every episode we say this.
Speaker:How do we treat people?
Speaker:Political opponents are not our enemies.
Speaker:They're not the enemies of the kingdom.
Speaker:They are people the kingdom is for.
Speaker:We're for them.
Speaker:The church should form spirit-led people, not political foot soldiers
Speaker:that just vote a certain way.
Speaker:How we do politics in the political system, we do vote, that's okay.
Speaker:We serve, we advocate, and work for good, but do not ask
Speaker:government to grow spiritual fruit.
Speaker:Don't put that pressure on it.
Speaker:Don't put it on that pedestal.
Speaker:And you know the area that I work in, business and work and what we do
Speaker:every day, we live with integrity, where we have authority instead of
Speaker:demanding control over places we do not.
Speaker:I like to say we're a steward over those things that we've
Speaker:been given responsibility over.
Speaker:The Spirit shapes how we love people, how the church forms people, how we engage in
Speaker:politics, and how we work without asking for visible power to do that invisible
Speaker:work We keep trying, oh boy, do we try, to legislate what only the Spirit can grow.
Speaker:That does not mean that laws do not matter.
Speaker:I'm not saying that.
Speaker:It means laws are limited.
Speaker:Government can restrain harm and damage and, you know, it can
Speaker:protect and it can provide security.
Speaker:It cannot, though, produce love.
Speaker:It can't produce salvation.
Speaker:Politics can change policy.
Speaker:It cannot create new life, new creation.
Speaker:The kingdom can shape people inside any nation, but the kingdom is not the nation.
Speaker:And the Holy Spirit can lead people who serve in government, but the Spirit is
Speaker:not captured or controlled by a party, platform, flag, or election cycle.
Speaker:That is, again, why the church can vote, speak, serve, and participate
Speaker:without expecting Rome to become God and not making Rome God.
Speaker:Unfortunately, that happens often.
Speaker:We cannot control Rome.
Speaker:We do not need to rebuild religion.
Speaker:We are called to live the kingdom of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:The Spirit forms the people of God, us, me and you.
Speaker:That is the work we keep trying to outsource, and it shouldn't be.
Speaker:Maybe it is time to stop asking visible power to replace that invisible presence,
Speaker:which is the power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:If we accept that Holy Spirit as that power, we might be fascinated by seeing
Speaker:how things around us, like governments and churches and things, kind of all
Speaker:of a sudden start bowing down to that power instead of us trying to use that
Speaker:power to become God or the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:I appreciate you listening in here.
Speaker:I again want to encourage you to go get the reading plan that is really
Speaker:driving a lot of these thought processes and things that are forcing me to
Speaker:just think differently about things.
Speaker:I think it'll do the same for you.
Speaker:Go get the plan at k2m.foundation/nt90.
Speaker:Get it, read through it, share it.
Speaker:Start the plan if you haven't already.
Speaker:Some of you may be long into it, and I know I've been getting some feedback
Speaker:on that, so thanks for all of that.
Speaker:Thanks for listening in at Seek Go Create.
Speaker:This is Tim Winders.
Speaker:Keep seeking.
Speaker:See you on the next episode.
