Bridging Generations: Leadership Lessons with Joey Pepper

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There are so many things you are doing right in terms of your wisdom, in terms

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of your learning, in terms of how you live your life and lead your families.

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I think that the gap is, is, there.

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Because there's so many things that you're doing right.

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on your own.

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so many things that you're doing right without showing the

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next generation how to do that

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Um, uh,

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How can young leaders harness their potential and overcome the

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unique challenges they face today?

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On today's episode of Seek, Go Create the Leadership Journey, we're joined by

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Joseph Pepper, a pastor from Littleton, Colorado, who is not only passionate about

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nurturing the next generation of leaders.

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But also an aficionado of coffee and health.

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Joey has poured his extensive experience into his first book for the young people,

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aiming to guide young leaders through the complexities of their development

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within a faith driven approach.

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Joseph or Joey, right?

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Welcome to Seek Go Create.

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I am so excited to be here.

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So I started off with Joseph, but we can call you Joey.

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Is that what you told me when we got going?

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that Saul Paul thing.

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Some people call me Joe, but really Joseph's only reserved for

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when I'm in trouble when I was a kid and my parents got mad at me.

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So Joey is fine for this podcast.

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And I think, you said you've just recently moved from Littleton

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and now you're in Nashville.

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Is that a permanent thing?

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Are you in Nashville permanent?

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So I'm in Nashville, at least for the next two years.

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Uh, there's actually a church out here is planting, um, and so I'm part of that

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launch Moving, uh, I did student before.

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I've last five years and then moving that to be kind of the, uh, The pastoral

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a church plant and, hopefully make that more of, a thing, uh, who, who knows.

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But so for right now, I did just recently move from Denver to Nashville

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for the church planting world.

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Excellent.

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So, Joey, the first question I usually ask, we got a little

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ahead of ourselves here, is the icebreaker, which is if we just met.

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And I, I do the question of, well, so tell me, what do you do?

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How do you answer when people ask you that question?

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Yeah.

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Um, it depends on the setting I am.

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I'm a big line dancer.

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Uh, and so there's a lot of people that will be in the line dancing

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bar and they'll ask me, well, what do you, what do you do?

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And for them, I don't want to shut down the conversation

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immediately by saying, Oh, I.

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I'm a pastor because then they'll be like looking at their drink in their

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hand and they'll be like, Oh gosh, I can't, I can't talk to you anymore.

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Um, and so in that situation, I'll just be like, Oh, you know what I do?

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I help people solve their, their issues.

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I kind of some, I consult people, I counsel people.

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Um, and so it depends on my setting, most times when I'm talking to somebody

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in a coffee shop or something, I'll just say, uh, I'm in student ministry

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and I work for the church that's down the road, um, and use that as

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a gateway to kind of invite them.

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So, it depends on the setting that I'm at for sure.

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But when people ask what I actually do, I am a pastor, I'm a pastor to

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pastors, a leadership guru, if you will,

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Well, good.

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the more intriguing thing, truthfully, is the whole line dancer thing,

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it usually is.

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because

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depending on how people grew up in their Christian denomination,

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et cetera, many people would think that that is of the devil.

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So we might need to address that right up front here, Joey.

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You got to tell me now is, is, is our people that dance going to hell or not?

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a part of a Baptist church through and through, but I

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don't think, I don't think so.

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you know, it's just good old fashioned country, Southern fun.

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Uh, which is why I moved to Nashville, so can't say that,

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it's not where my passion lies.

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I just love line dancing and almost as much as I

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love coffee.

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Yeah.

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the, the weird

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thing about that, this is going to lead into leadership

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and maybe we can dissect this.

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I love dancing, even from the kind of my origins of Baptist upbringing in the

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deep South, because you know, there was this old joke that they would say that,

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you know, sex led to dancing, which was even worse than, you know, having sex

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before marriage and all of that, but I love dancing and all that kind of stuff.

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I hate, I loathe line dancing.

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And my wife tells me it's because I'm not a good follower.

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Just to kind of get deep here, right, right out of the gate, man.

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What are your thoughts?

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I mean, is leadership and line dancing, are they co mingled?

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Is there some link between the two?

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And, uh, you mentioned in my book for the, for young people And, actually

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in one of those chapters, talk about that, my line dancing experience.

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Um, and so I was in South Florida at the time I was working in construction

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project management and, uh, you know, use line dancing as a way to kind of

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blow off some steam and, uh, I was the shyest kid, you, you would have ever

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seen growing up and did not go out in public and make a scene, do anything.

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I was the guy.

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Who would go to the bar and stand on the side of the outside of

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the dance, uh, the dance, floor.

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And so I did that for the first 3 weeks and, uh, eventually one of

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the regulars came and, they saw me and they're like, do you ever plan

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on getting into the dance floor?

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And I was like, no, actually, I don't plan on it.

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I just like, watching y'all do your thing.

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uh, what she ended up doing was teaching me the next song

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from outside the dance floor.

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And so what ended up happening was I learned to follow her as she like taught

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me the moves even go to the music.

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And then eventually I went onto the floor and I started line dancing,

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but they kept moving in different directions, you know, as they do.

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And so I just stopped dancing and.

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Just started trying to face the right direction that they were facing.

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then eventually I learned to follow as they, as they went.

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And then, you know, a few weeks went by, uh, Tim.

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And then after that, I was even following them.

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I was following the music.

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I was enjoying it.

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And then eventually I actually taught line dancing lessons.

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And so I was the one pulling people from the side, learning to teach them.

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To follow other people.

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and so, yes, I think there is a principle there, but here's the other

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principle with that that you're always following something, because if I I

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got to the place where I could teach somebody else how to line dance.

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But if I stopped following the person in front of me, I would step on their

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heel with my boot and that would cause a lot of pain for the other person.

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And so you're always following something.

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But, uh, I think in leadership, if we go away from this line dancing

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metaphor, as a, as a pastor and student ministry, believe that the Lord

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has said that we follow two things.

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we follow God or we follow ourselves.

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We follow our passions.

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We follow our desires.

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We follow.

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What the world says, um, is better.

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And so are we following something in leadership?

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Are we following the principles that the Lord has laid out for us?

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Or are we following the principles that the world has laid out for us?

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Regarding leadership.

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So to your point, yeah, I think that line dancing in general, followership

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in general, you cannot be a good leader if you're not a good follower.

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Right.

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There's a famous quote out there.

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I don't, don't remember who said they said, if you show me how you follow, I

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will show you how you'll be as a leader.

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So that's how I'd answer that question.

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Yeah.

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And that, again, that might be my issues here that I struggle with.

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the line dancing is that I'm just maybe, maybe I need to work on that.

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Maybe I need to meditate on that a little bit more.

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before we leave this, I do like this analogy.

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And I think I, remember reading that, but I'm going to go a little bit farther with

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it because when I heard you talking about, you were drawn to it, I'm going to, I'm

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going to really work this analogy, you're drawn to it because there was something

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there, there was a, an entertaining, you enjoyed watching it, probably there was

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something with the crowd, the people, whatever, there was an attractiveness

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to it, but you weren't a participant.

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You were there, you were on the fringes, you were around the wall, and someone

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reached out to you, and I'll use this word, discipled you and drew you in.

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You drew in and you became a participant, and you were probably

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awkward, uncomfortable initially, and then you started rocking it, and

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then you started probably wanting to show off some your own moves, but

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you stayed within the boundaries of the group and, what was going on.

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And then you began discipling other people.

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Now, the reason I bring it up and I use that word is it's all throughout

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reading your book and all throughout my church world history, I believe

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that discipling and discipleship is a word we struggle with.

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I think we, we struggle.

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So was the example that I use playing off the line dancing,

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would you say it was good?

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Bad?

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Maybe?

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Not maybe?

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What would you like to say or respond to that example?

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Yes, I would love to add on to that too, if I could.

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I think that discipling not the only thing that we struggle with.

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I think following is something that we struggle with.

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I think following humility.

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Uh, it requires a certain level of, I am not the best.

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Um, and there is somebody ahead of me, uh, who needs to pour into me,

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but then recognizing that there's somebody with, with less experience

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than that is going to be following me.

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So followership is, is everywhere.

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As I said always following something.

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You never, you never make it.

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You're always going to follow.

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The next thing.

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Um, and so I think when it comes to discipleship, and I I think to tie

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into, add on to to this, um, what the church and what men and what leaders

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have failed in recently, in the recent years, they have stopped calling out.

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people are gifted, who are called, but who have no where or

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way of finding their next step.

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Um, and so when it comes to leadership, I always say as a leader,

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your job is to connect personally to challenge them spiritually to

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take their next step with Jesus.

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I had 50 adult volunteers and that was their one goal.

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They had to connect personally and they had to challenge.

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You can call that discipleship.

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You can call that whatever you want to, but that's the

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mission of followers of Jesus.

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And I think that what we have failed that as leaders in the church is

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recognizing staying within the line dancing metaphor, the volunteers,

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the people, the congregation who is standing outside the dance floor.

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Just observing and calling them out and say, Hey, when are you

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going to get in the field and play?

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That's what a coach does, right?

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They, they call out something that looks beyond the means of someone else

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that they even think for themselves and then teaching them how to get there.

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Um, because the process of me stepping foot the first time on that dance

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floor to then teaching the line dances.

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I didn't even know it was really happening until I just began.

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I just began getting good at it.

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Um, and so when, when they say, Hey, I need you to serve in this ministry.

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The first time they do that to when they're recruiting their own leaders.

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That process that is discipleship and that happens through natural relationships,

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but what the leader is supposed to do, and we learned this through the

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process of following what the leader is supposed to do is to be the one

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to call them out in the first place.

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Um, and so I think that that it might not be discipleship is

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what we struggle with the most.

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I think the initiating of discipleship is something that that all leaders struggle

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because you put yourself out there.

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That's a risk to, to go and call someone out to do something that they

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probably don't see themselves doing.

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Um, so yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on with, uh, with that metaphor.

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Yeah,

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related to an example that might not be as threatening for some people,

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is there's a couple of things.

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One, you were in the room, you were in the bar or the wherever it was that

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I doubt it was in the basement of the Baptist church that y'all were doing

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line dancing if it was, then we're going to have a fun conversation there

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too, but I mean, you were somewhere, you were there, it wasn't as if.

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This sounds like a young lady, and there may have been some other things

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going on if it was a lady involved, but there was a lady that it wasn't as if

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she walked off the dance floor, walked out the doors, went walking up and down

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the streets and speared you, you know, sitting while you were playing, you know,

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Minecraft on a video game and said, Hey, I'm going to disciple you to come out.

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It's like, no, that, that's not a match.

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That's not, I don't even know if that would be even in an evangelism,

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you know, space, some people would say maybe it is, but you were there,

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there was a drawing in, there was, there was some kind of, an attraction.

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I keep using that word.

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And, and I like.

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I like that analogy because it basically says there's a

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two way thing going on here.

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You mentioned followership.

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She had to have a willingness to teach.

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She had to feel some degree of at least confidence in her ability to show you.

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So she had to be at least, pun intended here, a few steps

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ahead of you in that process.

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Many times, I think in our church world, we'll attempt to disciple people

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that aren't even near the dance floor.

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we'll try to hammer them with stuff and use what I use, like the language

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Jesus used with the Pharisees, we'll use the language Jesus used

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with the Pharisees instead of the language he used with the woman at

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the well, he spoke to two different.

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Audiences there.

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I want to ask a question when someone is speaking to a younger group of

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people, I think it allows me to ask what I consider to be a pretty rude

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question, which is how old are you?

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am in the very age of being the mid twenties.

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The most overlooked age group the face of the earth.

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Yeah.

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So like 25 ish, is that, are you okay?

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Cause mid twenties could be 23 to 27.

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All right.

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So 25.

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All right.

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I'd love to know at what point you first recognized an interest in this topic, this

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bigger topic, which we call leadership.

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Was there a period of time?

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I think you actually did talk about it in the book, but I'm going to ask it here.

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When did you say, huh, you know what, I'm intrigued or interested

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or maybe gifted in this area.

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I think there's been several times in my life where I've, I've realized

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that this is something that I enjoy.

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Um, and I will say that that two that come to mind, um, and they

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started when I was, years old.

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um, and I so my dad, I had the privilege of him being an entrepreneur.

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Uh, he's just that kind of mind.

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so he instilled that in me.

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Um, And so when I was four, I would go over to a couple of his businesses

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and just start picking up trash, uh, for as much as he would pay me.

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Um, never had an allowance growing up, but I did work for a paycheck

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from the edge of four on.

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And so I think that that really instilled just not only leadership

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within me, but just a work ethic, um, to just go above and beyond.

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But I think when I really knew that leadership was for me, was when I

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was I was about seven years old and I wanted to do a lemonade stand.

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Uh, you know, you, you throw some lemonade out there, throw some

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brownies, but this was not for any just generic lemonade stand.

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There was a Darth Vader helmet that you could put on yourself.

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That's when you talked, you were Darth Vader.

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so as a seven year old boy growing up, you know, early 2000s, I had to have

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that, but my parents said, Joey, no, we're not going to buy that for you.

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Which.

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so they forced me to think outside the box.

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Um, and so what I did I was like, you know what?

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The only way I know how to make money is by selling this lemonade.

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And so I forced some neighbors to gather together a little lemonade stand

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and it was just in our neighborhood.

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But Tim, we raised 50 out of 50 cent cups of lemonade.

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And the only way we did that was because I would sprint all the way

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down the block from a car that drove past us without buying a cup of

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lemonade and make them come back and buy a cup of lemonade, sharing the

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vision of why I had to have their 50 cents to get this Darth Vader helmet.

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and so looking back, you know, all these years later, that was the, the

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personality that, man, a leader is going to face obstacles and it doesn't matter

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what obstacle you face, there's a way under, around, through, or over, and a

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leader is the one who solves the problem.

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see the vision, they know how to get there and nothing will stop them.

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And so I think that I knew that in my heart just growing up, but I think

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that I've realized some of these principles to put words with that.

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But I think being a leader has just been within my DNA for as long as

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I've, I've been on this earth for sure.

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So your dad or your family was, they were in business for themselves.

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So they would have been entrepreneurs and business people.

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were you also church people?

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Did you grow up in and around the church, church world?

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So I actually didn't.

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Um, I'm the youngest of six half siblings.

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And so, Um, I had the privilege of watching my half siblings grow up.

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um, and they did not make the best life decisions.

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I can say that on the air.

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They'd say that for themselves.

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Um, and so I, I watched what they did and wanted to do the opposite.

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And so I think that that is also where part of my.

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My drive, my leadership DNA comes from is, is taking ownership

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and not only for myself, but, but for really my whole family.

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And, uh, so I came to know the Lord when I was 15 And, my oldest brother passed away.

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And so that was the same day that I came to know the Lord.

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And, uh, I immediately got into a Christian high school where I

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was an intern and discipled there.

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And then ever since I've kind of been in the ministry world.

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Um, so my, my story was very a turn shift, complete passion, for

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the Lord, uh, about the age of 15.

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So high school age uh, young adult.

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So at that age of 15, I, I'm often interested in like spiritual journeys

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and also how the Lord will, sometimes reach out and grab, sometimes

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gently draw people in, but it sounds like there was an appointment.

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A pretty abrupt or we'll call it a catalytic event maybe in your family,

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but did you have some clues before that?

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I mean, did y'all ever, you know, pop in on, you know, Easter Sunday or did

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you say y'all are church going or?

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Yeah.

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So we weren't church going, uh, as a whole.

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I mean, we went some Christmases and Easter's, but, uh, growing up,

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I played baseball my whole life and, uh, one of my best friends, he and

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I would hang out all the time and so I'd spend the night on Saturdays.

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And his mom would wake us up on Sunday morning and say,

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Joey, you are coming to church.

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and uh, her name was Carol.

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I love Carol to this day.

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But Carol was the scariest human being I've ever seen in my entire life.

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And when Carol said, you're going to church, by all

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means, you're going to church.

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Um, and so I had even gone to some summer camps growing up.

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I'd gone to some, some church, you know, things with, with that family.

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so, All of that was compared to my, my siblings, right?

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So I had mentioned that they weren't making the best decisions.

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And so my entire childhood, I said, well, okay, y'all have this prayer

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life, whatever that is glad for you guys, but look at my family and how

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well I'm doing compared to them.

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I don't need the savior.

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I don't need Jesus.

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so what, what shifted this catalytic event, um, it's not that my brother died

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and I just immediately looked up and was like, I've, I have this revelation.

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Um, it was the culmination of all of the things that this family had walked

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with me for, for about 11 years.

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Uh, so talk about discipleship.

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I mean, they were discipling me.

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I didn't even know it for 11 years.

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I'm talking about a natural process, right?

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And so for all of that time, I had gained some, some information about Jesus.

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And so when he passed away, that was the first day in my life

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where all of my discipline, all of my drive, all of my ability.

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Was meaningless I was small and I Was helpless, uh, and

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I was broken quite honestly.

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And so the only way to turn was from the information that I

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knew about this guy named Jesus.

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Um, and so from then on, I mean, he, he was the only answer and he still

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is the only answer and he ever was.

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Um, and so I've, I've taken that discipline and drive and the Lord

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has really shifted that more so away from the selfish ambition.

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More towards, uh, a kingdom ambition to bring other people to know that in

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the moment that you are helpless, which is very accurate, you are, uh, the

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Lord is not, and he will be your help.

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Um, and so he he really met me there.

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Uh, but he, so he met me there.

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But Carol Lewis met me when I was four years old and he's been walking with

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her, uh, for way longer than been alive.

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And so I praise God for that family for sure.

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I think often, and again, there are a lot of different ways that

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people are drawn into the kingdom of God, but there is often a carol.

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Or a grandmother or a somebody that's there that's probably praying, probably

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nudging could be scary at times, like you said, Carol was, but that they are,

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they are Christianity to people that are out there doing whatever in the world.

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One of the things that's interesting, Joey, is that it.

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It appears to me, let's just look at pre 15 and post 15, pre 15, you were

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developing talent, skills, abilities.

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Probably you had them at the foundation.

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you were developing them just with your environment, environment and

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atmosphere that you were around, but you had some, we'll call them

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Translate to being, and I'm doing air quotes for those that are listening

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to success in the world system.

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And, and I think I did too growing up and I, I was, I popped in and out of church

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some growing up, but it wasn't my thing.

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I was never impressed with what I saw in church world.

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One of the things.

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That I have observed, and I'll pose this in the form of a question, is that many

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times the skills that we've talked about leadership, decisiveness, aggressiveness,

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wanting that Darth Vader helmet,

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they don't, they're not as accepted, they're not as embraced.

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When one all of a sudden begins stepping into the more, spiritual, more church

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environment, what was it like as you started stepping into that world with all

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of that background that you had pre 15?

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Just give me whatever comes to mind when I bring that up.

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Yeah.

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I think there's a phrase that I find hilarious, uh, and

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it's called the cage stage.

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and so, uh, for me, I was a very passionate person.

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And so when I, Came to know the Lord, I became really passionate about theology,

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uh, especially growing up in a family that knew nothing about the Lord.

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Uh, I wanted to prove all of their beliefs wrong.

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And I was right because I had this new, this new identity in Christ.

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Um, and so for my high school years, even post 15, um, I, I began formulating this,

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this view of theology that I was right.

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Um, and so.

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What that did.

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was very similarly taking my passion and then just using it to prove myself

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that I have made this right decision.

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Um, And that even came in the form of, I mentioned earlier, I

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transferred to a Christian high school.

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And so I had to write my dad a 10 page essay to convince him to pay the bill

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that this high school would, would cost above, uh, above a public school.

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And, and so like, even in that, I was like, man, I'm so fresh,

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but I still know enough to know that this is where I need to be.

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and so it really didn't come until after I graduated high school.

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Um, I graduated high school and I was gonna go play golf, uh, for this college.

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got a golf, scholarship and so I played for a semester.

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Um, and so my parents at that point had moved to Florida and I was from Chicago.

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so I grew up in Illinois.

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and I don't know if you've been to both of those states, but Florida is

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significantly nicer than Illinois.

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And so what I did was I actually schools to Florida.

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and it was a small Christian college in West Palm beach.

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and I ended up getting, I was there for a couple of weeks, uh, only, and I

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went to a career fair and I was hired as a construction project manager.

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so now I drop out of college, I'm 19 and I'm overseeing millions of dollars.

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In construction management.

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And, uh, at that time it was In Boca Raton, which is the

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nicest, fanciest, houses that I had ever seen up to that point.

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And so I'm working with these multi millionaires as clients,

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and they're pouring into me with their business knowledge.

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I'm pouring into subcontractors to fix their homes and I'm managing

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about 30, 30 ish projects, time.

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uh, here's the kicker.

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I don't know anything about construction.

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They just hired me because I was a people person, uh, and I could oversee a budget.

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And so I did.

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and what that did for me was over the, over the period of a year and a half,

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not only did that humble me really fast, cause I didn't know anything

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about the world of what I was doing.

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but I began to learn that world.

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And I began to learn the culture of, uh, Simultaneously having a team

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of, subcontractors who didn't speak English, who were like paycheck to

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paycheck at best or struggling at worst.

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these multi million dollar people who I was dealing with on a daily basis,

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who had these urgent needs, and I was scheduling with assistants and

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it was these two distinct cultures.

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And I remember loving them both.

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Uh, And I remember also not enjoying the process of construction.

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Um, and so what that did is it, is it broke me down really, Um,

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to the point of just saying, okay, who am I really, and what matters?

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Because I was making way too much money that I knew what to do with, which is the

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whole reason I had dropped out of college anyways for my whole 19 year career at

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that point had been striving for money.

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And I found it.

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I found the success that you had mentioned earlier.

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You're absolutely right.

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Some of those traits do lead to some worldly success.

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I probably could have at one point, if I stayed with that company, built one of

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those houses in Boca Raton for myself.

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but I woke up a year and a half later.

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And I just said, I am not making an impact or a difference in

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any single human being's life.

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And I'm not connected to a church.

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happened between going from an intern, uh, under a campus pastor and

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seeking ministry, having thousands of hours of ministry experience

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to this construction manager.

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goes home after work and does nothing and sees no one and really is only

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out to make money for himself.

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I said, where is this making me any happier?

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Um, and so I think the process of having these skills, because I would

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still say, I would say that I still do.

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I'm still very driven, very goal oriented, very disciplined.

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Um, you mentioned in the intro that I love.

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coffee and health.

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I still very much do.

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but also this sense of empathy and cultural, um, and wanting to

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just be at the heart of a person.

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because that broke me down.

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I think the death of my brother broke me down.

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I think the Lord has used significant events in my life or processes, know,

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over the span of weeks or years.

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Um, and then some of my ministry experience too, we can get into,

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uh, in a few minutes, I think these, these uh, have driven in me the

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other end of the spectrum, right?

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Because most people, type three on the Enneagram for you

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listeners who are Enneagram fans, achiever, high achieving person.

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I think most people will look at someone like me.

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think he's not going to be able to relate to me.

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Uh, he's not going to be able to understand where I'm at because he just

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wants to get things done and he's got the energy to do it, you know, young 20s.

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Um, and what changed for me really between that and learning empathy,

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Is the ability to ask questions.

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Um, and so I think that the, difference between having these life skills that

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some people would be intimidated in with a church scene and having the

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ability to use them with empathy.

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Is a really good question.

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and so we can talk more about questions.

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I don't know if you have follow up questions, but I think one of

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the greatest passions that I have developed through this is teaching

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other people to ask questions.

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And I've kind of coined the term, the investigative leader.

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Um, Um, which is something that I'm kind of working through right now, which

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is how do we, as a, as a church, how do we, as a leader, how do we see the

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people who to go back to our original metaphor are, are on the outside of

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the dance floor and not, not teach them with the lessons we know, but coach

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them to the questions that we ask.

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So that's what

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I love, I mean, obviously someone who hosts a podcast loves asking questions.

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So I love the thought of that, but just a little bit more

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on what I was asking there.

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I guess something that I have perceived could be incorrect.

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It could just be my paradigm is that often, and it, and it, I'm reading

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between the lines here, you could tell me if I am or not, that often

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someone who is high energy, often who's someone who is very task oriented and

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leadership oriented and things like that.

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If they step into what we'll call an established church culture,

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they're initially excited.

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Until after a while they go now, hold on a second, Joey, you need to pay your dues.

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You need to just sit back and be quiet or, or we'll use this word we used earlier.

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Disciple.

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You need to be discipled.

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We need somebody to disciple you.

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So this is, I'm exaggerating slightly, but you need to sit back, shut up, you

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know, keep that energy, or you could use that energy in the parking lot.

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We'd rather it not be around things that are important.

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I guess what I'm trying to ask is, did you experience any of that, and

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if so, did it squelch you at all?

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And I know that it impacts the young leaders that are, here's the opposite

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of it, if they Don't, if they aren't appreciated in that environment, they're

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going to go take it somewhere else.

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So talk about, you could take anything that I just said there and go with it.

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Yeah, um, I think all of that jolts me for sure.

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um, I think so here's, here's what I'm passionate about.

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You asked me what, what I do.

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Um, I think my official title is, that of a minister.

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I think my unofficial title, um, through the heart of asking questions is helping

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people feel seen, known, and loved.

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And the two people groups on this earth that I have seen that are the

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least seen and the least known those between the ages of 18 and 30 and

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those who are in pastoral leadership or ministry leadership in general,

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those who work full time for a church.

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Um, those two groups of people, oftentimes they are the same, right?

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Oftentimes people that are full time in a church are between the ages of 18 and 30.

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two groups of people are not only the current leaders who are rising, but

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they are the most impactful group of people that we have, we're missing it.

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I'm in that group and I'm, I feel missed.

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And so yes, to answer your question, this is something I've experienced.

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And so, uh, one of my ministry, appointments, uh, that I've had

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in my life is to be a full time associate high school pastor.

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In Fort Worth, Texas.

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And so I did some time there, in Fort Worth where we had, um, you know, we had

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a student, a thriving student ministry.

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There's about, uh, I don't know, anywhere from 350 to 400 middle school students,

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anywhere from 200 to 300 high school students as part of the high school team.

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we had a thriving group system with.

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Parents, families, young kids, our children's ministry was bursting out

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the seams, and this was not in Fort Worth directives about 20 miles west.

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So a little bit more suburb get hired.

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I moved there.

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And, you know, at this point, I'm 22 and I say, hey, I need some community.

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What do you got for me?

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Like, where's where's the young adults?

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And they said.

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We have none.

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Like there is no, there are, you are the young adults in Aledo, Texas.

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Um, and I said, I I don't believe that true.

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I said, you know what?

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I've been, I've been in the grocery store.

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I've been at the coffee shops, all the people serving me, there

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are young adults and this is the biggest church in the area.

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So where are they?

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They said, Oh, you know, we've tried starting that.

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You know, six or seven times.

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And I that.

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the most, You didn't ask this, but I'm going to bring it in there anyways,

Speaker: 00:35:04

the most, detrimental statement to a leadership is we've already tried that.

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so I got that.

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and they said, you know what, like your job is high school

Speaker: 00:35:13

ministry, um, and you do that.

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But if you want to do something, it can't be during your hours.

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It can't be on church property.

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Um, and there won't be a church budget.

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Um, so.

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We've tried it six times, but like, you know, you're a young buck.

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Go try it again.

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If you really want

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That's a,

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kind of

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that's the nice way of saying we're not going to pay you anything for that.

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exactly.

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And so, um, like that was point number one where it felt like you're

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just, you're just young you think, you know, better and go do it.

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Um, and so had kind of the green light, whether or not it was, uh,

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you know, granted to me fully, but so what I did was I just made a solution.

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I was like, you know what, we're just, we have three of us.

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We're going to start meeting.

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And then, uh, eventually I got connected to the owner of a coffee shop And we

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were meeting from this coffee shop All of the baristas started coming.

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And so now we're up to about 15 and, and the Lord just really grew that.

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So we outgrew the coffee shop.

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We started meeting on Tuesday nights.

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We outgrew the coffee shop.

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Eventually I built up a leadership team, handed it off to them.

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And so then at that point, the church was like, okay, we'll

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let you use our buildings.

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You can have an Instagram.

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Here's a little budget.

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Um, today it's been two and a half years since then, and the

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group is still growing strong.

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We've seen probably over different faces come come through that,

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which for a church that had zero young adults is pretty substantial.

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And so, um, I think that the point is that they may not explicitly

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say that they don't believe in the next generation of leaders.

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Um.

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But they're not empowering them or trusting them do the things that God has

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put on their heart and gifted them to do.

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Um, nor did I receive any development along the way kind of for that.

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And so I think that the purpose is, uh, I was talking to a pastor

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in Denver, not too long ago, and I was like, Hey man, just it going?

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You know, who's checking in on you.

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he said, man, are the first person check in on me in a year.

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And he, he worked for a church with 200 plus person staff.

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And I met him randomly in a coffee shop and somehow found out he's a pastor.

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And I just asked, Hey, how are you doing?

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Um, and so like pastors are overseen, 18 to 30 are overseen, And just for

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my final example of this, there was a.

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A guy who's in sales, he's 18 to 30 and he served in the middle school ministry

Speaker: 00:37:37

where I used to be a middle school pastor.

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And, uh, my first week on the job, I moved from Texas to Denver.

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I take him out for coffee and, uh, we're sitting there at coffee

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who exchanged pleasantries.

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and, I just say, uh, like, Hey man, like, I would love to hear your story.

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And he looked at me dead in the eyes.

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And he said, before that, I have one question.

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And this is the first question I have his mouth for me.

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he said, am I in trouble?

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And I said, Are you, are you in trouble?

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What do you mean?

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Uh, like it's literally my first week.

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And he said, I've been here for three years.

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I've been serving in student ministry this whole time.

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I have never been asked to get coffee.

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any student pastor.

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And I thought that I was doing something wrong.

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That's what he added.

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I said, no, man, I'm just trying to get to know your story.

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and I think that the, issue is not only are we experiencing people say, you're

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too young, sit down, shut up, bide your time, but we've gone beyond that.

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we don't even acknowledge them anymore.

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like, they aren't even there.

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just, there's a break.

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You graduate high school and then you either get married and you have kids

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and you're welcomed back there's no place for you and they go and they find

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their place somewhere else where the world is going to offer them a place

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to feel seen, known and cared for.

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And so I think the spectrum is both ways.

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Yes, people experience that all the time.

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You're too young.

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You need to bide your time.

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And I would suggest that like, that's just not necessarily true.

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You can have a mature 19 year old, you can have an immature 40 year

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old and they can do the same job.

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but at this point I would say we've even gone beyond that too.

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just not even here.

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They're somewhere else.

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Um, and no one's going to find them.

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just a big problem.

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I think there's so many things with that.

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Oh, that's very good, Joey.

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the first thing I observed is that maybe we need to stop doing

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all of, or a good portion of our church work in church buildings.

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We need to do it in coffee shops.

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That's the first thing I heard from what you were saying is that coffee

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shop seems to be like where the action might be that, I actually

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am sort of joking, but not totally.

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Second thing that I want to say, and then this will lead into a comment and

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a question, is that I think that we often forget that the 12, or we'll say

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13 individuals that rocked the world.

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We're all under 30.

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I think we all believe that Jesus, maybe Peter was old ish, but he wasn't that old.

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And I mean, some say that they could have been as young as 15,

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16, some of them, depending on who you ask and who you talk to.

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And so I think we need to remind ourselves of that.

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I do wonder at times if we'll just say people, but especially people that

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get into a groove in their career, either in church business or whatever.

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And in today's culture, if we're leading such distracted lives, if we

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have so much going on, we have not allowed any white space or any time.

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To do what you talked about, which is go have coffee with

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people or do what I'm doing here.

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This is one of the reasons I do this.

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I love having one hour conversations with people like you.

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but we have built so much into our lives that we are so

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focused on self and ourselves.

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So having said that There's two categories of people I want us to

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talk about in the time we've got left.

Speaker: 00:41:15

And I'm going to ask you point blank to talk to people in my age bracket.

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I'm going to ask you to talk to us about what's going on.

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What are we missing?

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You went through a few things there.

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I kind of mentioned a couple things too, but I want to bridge.

Speaker: 00:41:31

I want to bridge some gaps if possible.

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I'm in my 60s, so we are definitely not of the same generation.

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So that's the first group we're going to talk about.

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And then we're going to finish up by having you talk to the group that are

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in that age bracket that you wrote the book for, for the young people.

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And we're going to give them some practical steps to finish up that they can

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deal with people that might be in my age bracket or just deal with their situation.

Speaker: 00:41:57

So follow me.

Speaker: 00:41:57

First question, Joey, you know, look in the camera, talk right in the

Speaker: 00:42:01

mic and I'm going to give you time.

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I will try not to interrupt you, but tell me what you would love to tell me that me

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and my generation are messing up with when it comes to dealing with your generation.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I love telling people what they're doing wrong.

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Uh, so I love this question.

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man, I think that to establish that is to first establish that there are

Speaker: 00:42:25

so many things you are doing, right.

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There are so many things you are doing right in terms of your career.

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There are so many things you are doing right in terms of your wisdom, in terms

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of your learning, in terms of how you live your life and lead your families.

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I think that the gap is, is, there.

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Because there's so many things that you're doing right.

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on your own.

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so many things that you're doing right without showing the

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next generation how to do that.

Speaker: 00:42:53

Um, I think the classic example is taxes.

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Taxes are not learned in schools.

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Uh, everybody who still does taxes doesn't even know how to do them and they just

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sent, they got a guy, they got a guy.

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Um, and so I, I would say for your, your generation, I think, and I'll speak to

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this a little bit more when I talk to my generation, there is a generational

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gap of how people receive leadership.

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and so for the more seasoned ones that are listening to this podcast, I would

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suggest this, I would suggest that you are at the place now where your

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life has not passed you by God has equipped you and use you in whatever

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your story may be in such a subtle way.

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bring your story to a purpose, and your purpose is to pour

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into the next generation.

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but I said earlier, and I'll say it again, we are always following something.

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And so, as a leader, don't stop following people.

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following the Lord in the way that you have.

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Keep leading your family in the way that you have.

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Recognizing that someone is following you.

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And the way in which to reach them is not going to be the way you were reached.

Speaker: 00:44:07

There is a generational shift that has gone on.

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And I think the gap is getting bigger because younger people are realizing that.

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And, and the more seasoned people are questioning why there's a bigger gap.

Speaker: 00:44:21

because it worked for them.

Speaker: 00:44:22

They've reached their success and they know the way, but the world has

Speaker: 00:44:25

changed and the way, it's changed.

Speaker: 00:44:27

Uh, the way to heaven hasn't changed.

Speaker: 00:44:28

Jesus is the only way.

Speaker: 00:44:29

But, The way in which you're going to be able to connect to the younger

Speaker: 00:44:34

generation is significantly different.

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It is with the introduction of technology.

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Sure.

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But I think it's more so what you touched on earlier.

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It is the introduction of the busy culture.

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And I think instead of fighting the busy culture, um, which we could

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do, uh, but we'll take one step forward and three steps back with a

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busy culture, we work into the busy culture, and we, we meet those people

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where we are a very natural way.

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so, yes, we are called to disciple.

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But we are also called to seek, go and create.

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I love the title of this podcast, right?

Speaker: 00:45:13

And so for your generation, what's really massively important is

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that they, they never stopped doing that for themselves, right?

Speaker: 00:45:21

Your time is not done.

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Your time is beginning.

Speaker: 00:45:25

You have learned, you have wisdom and, and, and that needs to connect personally.

Speaker: 00:45:32

And challenge someone spiritually.

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And if you are not doing that with what you have learned, that

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is why the gap is getting bigger.

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you brought up something I think that is, uh, my wife and I

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discussed this quite often that.

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We are still in a very high seeking mode, growth, you know, Dwight talks

Speaker: 00:45:59

about fixed mindset or growth mindset.

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And I think what we observe is that there are many people in our age

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bracket that they're, they're done.

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They're still here, but they're done and they've been done for

Speaker: 00:46:15

a long time and they're cynical.

Speaker: 00:46:17

They're crotchety.

Speaker: 00:46:18

I could throw a lot of words out here and they kind of get ticked

Speaker: 00:46:22

off at your generation because they don't know why you don't come to

Speaker: 00:46:27

them and ask how to do your taxes.

Speaker: 00:46:31

Or whatever, even though truth, truthfully, not many people know

Speaker: 00:46:34

how to do taxes nowadays with the way the government's done that.

Speaker: 00:46:38

Maybe not a good example.

Speaker: 00:46:39

Maybe line dancing should be what we should be really learning how to do.

Speaker: 00:46:43

I do think one should have honor and respect for elders,

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but I don't think it's just.

Speaker: 00:46:51

You give it just because you're 30 years older than me.

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I don't think that's why I think it needs to be that.

Speaker: 00:46:59

Joey says, you know, Tim, I always hear you talking about some book you're

Speaker: 00:47:04

reading, or you just, you said you just went through six months of studying.

Speaker: 00:47:09

Eschatology and revelation at whatever age you're at so that you can learn

Speaker: 00:47:14

different things that, you know, I mean, I'm in a deeper spiritual study right

Speaker: 00:47:19

now than I've ever been in my life.

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and I think if I'm kind of piling on talking to people in my age bracket

Speaker: 00:47:26

is that when you're stagnant, no one wants to know what you have to say.

Speaker: 00:47:30

and then when you do tell people something, it comes out stinky, smelly,

Speaker: 00:47:36

not attractive in any form or fashion.

Speaker: 00:47:39

But having said that, either respond to that or go into now communicating

Speaker: 00:47:46

with Your age bracket or younger or in that range And I know you've got

Speaker: 00:47:51

a lot of great things in the book as you know for the young people

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It's i've got it here on my kindle.

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I've read like I said around 80 of it.

Speaker: 00:47:58

I think it's such a great Basics of leadership book in many ways I think so.

Speaker: 00:48:05

all right, so respond to me or and or go into Giving some instructions

Speaker: 00:48:10

or speaking directly to people in your age bracket about leadership

Speaker: 00:48:13

I kind of bridge the gap from what you were saying to the younger

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people and also including the older generation in there as well.

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the younger generation, they, they want to receive leadership in a way that is

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completely different than what the older generation has received before before.

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And, Gen X.

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Uh, received leadership as more military style.

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You had, you had one guy, very clear leader.

Speaker: 00:48:36

Here's the order go execute the mission.

Speaker: 00:48:39

and that's how you guys enjoy leadership and leading in general.

Speaker: 00:48:43

when you, you come to the millennial.

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Uh, the millennial was kind of more of I'm going to enjoy an

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ambiguous kind of leadership.

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I need vision and I need direction, but I also want this space to kind of do

Speaker: 00:48:55

my own thing and figure out who I am.

Speaker: 00:48:58

Um, so like, give me the vision and direction, but don't give me

Speaker: 00:49:01

the, the task by task line item.

Speaker: 00:49:05

and Gen Z is similar, but also different in the way of which, uh, like, Hey, I

Speaker: 00:49:09

almost, I, it's going to come across when, and this is probably to your point, why.

Speaker: 00:49:15

Gen X older, older millennials are feeling frustrated with Gen Z, um,

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because they're at the point where their way of receiving leadership

Speaker: 00:49:25

is almost, uh, abrasive to that.

Speaker: 00:49:28

it's going to come across like, I don't need you.

Speaker: 00:49:31

Um, And that's really not what it is.

Speaker: 00:49:33

What it is.

Speaker: 00:49:33

is they want to work together as a team, and they want the leader to be on the

Speaker: 00:49:37

outside saying, Hey, here's the vision.

Speaker: 00:49:40

Here's the direction.

Speaker: 00:49:41

Now you have all of this open lane to run.

Speaker: 00:49:45

But what that does that much space and open lane that a Gen Z needs to run.

Speaker: 00:49:50

That's going to cause the leader.

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To feel a little bit on the outside.

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And I think that that is where some of this tension comes in.

Speaker: 00:49:58

And it's not even a, uh, abrasive thing from Gen Z, but they just

Speaker: 00:50:02

want to identify with themselves in how they accomplish the mission.

Speaker: 00:50:07

And so I think that that is a huge tension between the way that Gen X, uh, older

Speaker: 00:50:12

millennials have received leadership how Gen Z has received leadership Uh, because

Speaker: 00:50:17

Gen Z has been told their whole life.

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Hey, sit down, stop talking.

Speaker: 00:50:22

Let me do the leading.

Speaker: 00:50:24

And now they're like just stallions that have been caged and domesticated and they

Speaker: 00:50:29

want to be unleashed and they want to run.

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And I think that that is where some of the tension comes in, but then

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you see gen alphas on the rise.

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And for those of you with middle school kids, I was a middle school pastor.

Speaker: 00:50:38

And so I'm just big nerdy into, you know, all these generations.

Speaker: 00:50:42

But, uh, so I've dealt with all the generations.

Speaker: 00:50:44

at the same time, you know, adults, leading middle schoolers.

Speaker: 00:50:47

Gen alpha is not Gen Z.

Speaker: 00:50:49

Gen Z wants the leader to be kind of on the outside and give me a space to run.

Speaker: 00:50:55

Gen Alpha wants the leader to be almost next to you as like, Hey, I'm going

Speaker: 00:50:59

to, here's yes, I, I am the leader.

Speaker: 00:51:02

There's a vision here, but like, you're, you're right there with me.

Speaker: 00:51:06

Come, come go see, right.

Speaker: 00:51:08

It's, it's almost a come and see, let's do this together.

Speaker: 00:51:12

and I think that Gen X is more Hey, here's the task here

Speaker: 00:51:16

are every line item you need.

Speaker: 00:51:18

I'll be in my office, you go do your thing.

Speaker: 00:51:20

But Gen F is like, no, no, no, I want to sit next to you in the cubicle.

Speaker: 00:51:24

I want to do this together.

Speaker: 00:51:26

and so I think that there's just some tension there with

Speaker: 00:51:28

generational learning in general.

Speaker: 00:51:30

what I would say to the younger generation explicitly that rarely have I seen

Speaker: 00:51:38

mentors ask to mentor someone else.

Speaker: 00:51:42

Rarely, I would say every mentor relationship that I've had,

Speaker: 00:51:46

both formal and informal have come from me seeking it out.

Speaker: 00:51:51

I'm a firm belief.

Speaker: 00:51:51

Every conversation you have is a mentor conversation.

Speaker: 00:51:55

I can learn from anyone.

Speaker: 00:51:56

I've learned from this conversation, from your insights.

Speaker: 00:51:59

Um, and it doesn't take a formal relationship to learn from an older

Speaker: 00:52:03

individual, but what does take intentionality is for you, young

Speaker: 00:52:07

person to go to the older generation, who, by the way, although we agree

Speaker: 00:52:12

with it or don't agree with it, they have done a lot of things, right?

Speaker: 00:52:15

And they do have a lot more wisdom than we do.

Speaker: 00:52:17

We absolutely must respect them on every level.

Speaker: 00:52:20

Um, as we would respect any person or should at least, but what we need

Speaker: 00:52:25

to do is we need to take the 1st step I think young, young professionals

Speaker: 00:52:30

have looked, have been overlooked for so long that that's their identity.

Speaker: 00:52:34

And now they're not, they're not even seeking to take the next step.

Speaker: 00:52:38

Um, and so what I would say to the younger person is what I

Speaker: 00:52:41

would say to the older person.

Speaker: 00:52:43

personally with them and challenge them spiritually to

Speaker: 00:52:46

take their next step with Jesus.

Speaker: 00:52:48

When you go up to an older generational person and you say, Hey,

Speaker: 00:52:51

I need you to meet with me weekly.

Speaker: 00:52:53

And I'm here's 15 questions that over the next three months I want

Speaker: 00:52:57

answers to in dialogue about that will challenge them spiritually too.

Speaker: 00:53:01

And so it's a two way street, but I would say mentoring has stopped because

Speaker: 00:53:06

it's never been about the mentor asking, To men to mentor someone.

Speaker: 00:53:10

It's always been about the mentee seeking that relationship, but because

Speaker: 00:53:14

These generational differences we are now no longer receiving a task

Speaker: 00:53:18

list and asking what's next We're not asking for the next mentor.

Speaker: 00:53:23

I think that that's where we've gone wrong I will also just mention that there's

Speaker: 00:53:26

a lot more about The younger person in the book for the young people for more

Speaker: 00:53:30

practical advice of how to do that.

Speaker: 00:53:33

Yeah, i'll ask I'll ask more about the book in just a moment But one of the

Speaker: 00:53:35

things that came to mind since we're really talking about Trying to bridge

Speaker: 00:53:39

some of the gaps here between generations.

Speaker: 00:53:42

I remember our son was at a church out in, he was in Los Angeles

Speaker: 00:53:46

and he kind of called us up.

Speaker: 00:53:48

He said, man, I'm, you know, Los Angeles is a tough town.

Speaker: 00:53:51

He was actually doing some volunteer work at the church and trying to make

Speaker: 00:53:54

ends meet and doing other things.

Speaker: 00:53:56

And we kind of mentioned to him to do what you said, go.

Speaker: 00:54:00

To someone in the church and say, Hey, listen, and the response he got, this

Speaker: 00:54:06

is going to lead to a question, but I'm going to get people's attention.

Speaker: 00:54:09

The response he got from someone who was on staff at that church

Speaker: 00:54:12

was my time is not my own.

Speaker: 00:54:14

I do not have time to meet with you regularly and things like that,

Speaker: 00:54:18

which , this is not even father talk.

Speaker: 00:54:20

This is just leader talk.

Speaker: 00:54:21

I would love to either.

Speaker: 00:54:25

Physically or whatever, smack somebody who says something like

Speaker: 00:54:28

that, especially someone who is in a church world leadership role.

Speaker: 00:54:33

I believe that our generation is probably repelled and kind of sent out

Speaker: 00:54:37

signals that says, don't ask questions.

Speaker: 00:54:41

I'm authoritative.

Speaker: 00:54:42

This is my way or the highway type thing as a follow up.

Speaker: 00:54:47

What do we need to do to be more open or to put out signals that

Speaker: 00:54:52

make it a little more friendly?

Speaker: 00:54:55

what are some things that you need to say to my generation that we need to

Speaker: 00:54:59

do to allow for more of that openness?

Speaker: 00:55:03

Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker: 00:55:06

and I don't know if there's any other answer besides just doing it.

Speaker: 00:55:12

there's so many theories of how to generate a conversation,

Speaker: 00:55:16

you have the conversation.

Speaker: 00:55:20

There's a story that I can share about this.

Speaker: 00:55:22

Actually, There's a guy that came through this.

Speaker: 00:55:24

young adult ministry.

Speaker: 00:55:25

I mentioned earlier, his name was Levi.

Speaker: 00:55:27

And, uh, he looked, he expressed to me on the first time of, of meeting him that

Speaker: 00:55:32

he had not been to a church in, in years.

Speaker: 00:55:35

and I was like, man, you've got to come with me on Sunday.

Speaker: 00:55:39

and he, he came, he came and met me in the lobby.

Speaker: 00:55:42

I was obviously working.

Speaker: 00:55:43

and so, you know, as a, as a, That's my super bowl.

Speaker: 00:55:46

So I didn't have a ton of time to hang out with him.

Speaker: 00:55:47

But, um, I said, Hey, let me, grab this guy over here.

Speaker: 00:55:51

Uh, he's going to be a great guy for you to know.

Speaker: 00:55:54

And he happened to be just an older gentleman who was on our host

Speaker: 00:55:57

team and they start talking and and, and I said, Uh, Levi, like we

Speaker: 00:56:02

gotta go, we gotta go into service.

Speaker: 00:56:04

And, and the older gentleman was like, Hey, like I'll bring him in

Speaker: 00:56:06

there in five minutes, but he'll we'll just come sit together.

Speaker: 00:56:09

and it was great.

Speaker: 00:56:10

And I, uh, saw Levi after the service.

Speaker: 00:56:13

I didn't even sit with him and he sat with the with this gentleman and Levi

Speaker: 00:56:16

said, man, that the best day I've had and the most seen I felt in a year.

Speaker: 00:56:22

And then the following Tuesday, I said, Levi, how are you doing man?

Speaker: 00:56:26

'cause he had expressed to me the previous, to Tuesday today how he was.

Speaker: 00:56:28

Struggling with drugs and alcohol and, and sex and all of these things.

Speaker: 00:56:32

And I said, man, how are you doing?

Speaker: 00:56:33

Like, how do you feel about all this church stuff?

Speaker: 00:56:35

I know you've been kind of, you were seeking community, you found it.

Speaker: 00:56:38

And, and that Tuesday night, he actually gave his life to the Lord.

Speaker: 00:56:41

Not anything, I did, Not anything this older gentleman did, but

Speaker: 00:56:44

what the Lord was doing in him.

Speaker: 00:56:45

And, and I asked him like, what was the catalyst?

Speaker: 00:56:48

And he said, that older man.

Speaker: 00:56:50

Asked me such good questions.

Speaker: 00:56:52

I think that what you can do is, is, is really that there are

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old, there are younger people who have just simply gone unnoticed.

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so for your generation to remember a name, take advantage of the opportunity

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to see someone and connect with them, uh, both naturally with warning.

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without warning, uh, whatever the situation I think wherever you're

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at in work, it's not just, Hey, I'm going to teach this younger person how

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to do this Excel spreadsheet better.

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It is, Hey, I'm going to teach this person how to do the job.

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And then I'm connect, I'm going to connect with them about how

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they're settling into the role.

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Uh, that is the missing link.

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Um, and so really just taking advantage of.

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Of any opportunity that comes your way, but to do that, you

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have to be open to seeing the opportunities that are in your way.

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I think that's good.

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And as you were talking, I was just thinking of our ultimate

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example, which is Jesus Christ.

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And he had a pretty important mission over the course of the three, three

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and a half years that he ministered.

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And Joey, I've studied this.

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I can't find a time.

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That he seemed rushed and hurried where he told his disciples,

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I don't have time for y'all.

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Oh, no, I don't have time to sit here at the well.

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I can't think of it.

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So my pointed statement to anyone going, yeah, I don't

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have time and all that is it.

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So, so you are, your stuff's more important than being savior of the world.

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So, hey, Joey, somewhere along the way, you decided to write a

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book for the young people starting out in life and leadership.

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Tell me about that.

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Tell us who it's for and any little nugget or anything about

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it that you want to mention.

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And then I've got another question or two before we wrap up.

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for the young people starting out in life and leadership by, I like the name here,

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Joseph Pepper, not Joey, Joseph Pepper.

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Yes.

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Full name for sure.

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But it'll be easier for me to tell you who it's not for.

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The only person this book is not for is for the person who doesn't want

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to grow in their own life and faith.

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The person that it is for is people in your generations to understand

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how the younger people think and how the younger people are entering

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into their own leadership positions.

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Now, I think the age group that it applies to the most are those high school.

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And young adults and college students who are forming those leadership habits.

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James Clear has a great book, Atomic Habits, that inspired a lot of a

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chapter of the book, Chapter six, Healthy Habits that I have in there.

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Um, and one of these things, my passion for fitness and health has come through

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a lot of medical issues in my life.

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Um, so I've navigated just a lot hard situations and what I've come

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to realize is that everybody has.

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We all have our hard situations.

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And so this book is really for those people who need that breakthrough

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encouragement of how to break the wall of, uh, of complacency of I don't

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know what I'm doing with my life.

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I feel like identity is one of the biggest issues right now.

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And so that's really the main drive, uh, of who it's to.

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The reason I wrote it was I was doing ministry in Denver and there was that

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one pastor in the coffee shop that I mentioned, but I didn't mention, Were the

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dozens of other pastors in that coffee shop and others who had experienced

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similar church hurt, similar leadership failure, and similar lack of development.

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I think when you look at the business world and when you look at the

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military, ability to develop people is.

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above and beyond what we are doing as a church to develop our staff.

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and it broke my heart.

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Cause I'm a big leadership guy, but I'm also just, I care about

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ministry leaders and I want them to be in it for the long haul.

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I want to be in it for the long haul.

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Um, And so what, what really drove that book was to collectively just

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see pastors and say like, Hey man, I see the struggle you're going through.

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and so that was a lot of the reason that I began typing on my

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computer, the words that I did.

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Very good.

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Well, like I said, it's an excellent read.

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Where can, if someone just wants to reach out to you, you know,

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where can they find the book?

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I'm guessing Amazon, all that kind of stuff, but where can they find the book?

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And if someone just wants to connect with you, go ahead and give that verbally here.

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We'll include it down in notes and all, but where can people find you?

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they can, uh, they can find me, Instagram.

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uh, Joey underscore pepper 12, Uh, that can find the book on Amazon, or

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if they want to listen to this some more, I unpack a lot more of this, uh,

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on a podcast called ministry cohort, uh, which is just, uh, similar to this.

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We interview a lot of guest speakers about leadership, faith.

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of this thing.

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So those three platforms are a way to connect with me.

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Good.

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We'll include that.

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Joey, we're Seek, Go Create.

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Three words.

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Gonna allow you to choose one of those.

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Resonates more with you than the other two.

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Seek, go, or create.

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And why?

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I think I'm going to choose to but, uh, this podcast tells me that it's about

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seeking, uh, was my, my go to word, but I'm really passionate about go.

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Acts chapter one, verse eight, uh, says you will receive power and

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the Holy spirit comes upon you.

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You'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

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And we see this in Acts unfold, because at that point, Rome

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was the ends of the earth.

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So we see the church expand from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, to Rome.

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And so now the world's bigger, so our mission is bigger, but until we go, if we

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stay in our tight knit circles, we will get phrases like we've tried it that way.

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We've already done it before.

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We'll look at young people and say, sit down.

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Your time's not now.

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talking.

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That's when we stay.

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But when we go, we experience so much more and we allow so much more

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freedom for leadership development.

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Um, so not only is go a discipleship term and an evangelism tool, it's

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also a leadership tool and going will allow us to see a lot more

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than what we see when we stay.

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So I would say go is the 1 that I resonate with a lot more.

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Very good.

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Thanks.

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What a great conversation this has been.

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Line dancing, Darth Vader, leadership.

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I think we have almost covered it all.

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I do recommend people get the book.

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Excellent book for the young people starting out in life and leadership.

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And I do agree.

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It's really good for people.

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We'll call them mature.

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We won't call them old.

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That just want a perspective of some of the challenges and maybe it

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just helps softening our hearts so that we can become more humble and

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communicate better with that generation.

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So I appreciate everybody listening in.

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We have new episodes here at Seek Go Create every Monday.

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We're on YouTube.

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We're on all the platforms.

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Keep sharing, keep commenting, keep listening And until next time.

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continue being all that you were created to be.