Deepening Faith in a Digital Age: Dr. Drew Dickens on AI, Distraction, and Discernment

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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We are all neck deep in AI right now.

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should we be afraid of it,

we should be discerning.

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we should go into this

with eyes wide open.

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Should we be concerned?

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not to be dystopian, but I, I think so.

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I think we should be concerned, but

we should as Christians be mindful and

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discerning, as we should with everything.

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it is here, it's powerful.

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it's growing exponentially,

and, beyond exponentially.

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Tim Winders: Can artificial intelligence

deepen your faith or quietly replace it?

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episode, I'm joined by Dr.

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Drew Dickens, a theologian and expert

on AI's impact on spirituality with a

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doctorate in theological anthropology

and groundbreaking research on how

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technology shapes our connection with God.

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Drew offers a powerful perspective

on the risks, rewards, and realities

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of AI for faith-driven leaders.

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If you're curious or even a

little cautious about where

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faith and tech collide, this is a

conversation you don't want to miss.

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Dr.

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Drew Dickens, welcome to Seek, go Create.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Incredible opportunity and thank

you for the privilege, Tim.

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It's um, really, we've

already had a fun conversation

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Tim Winders: I

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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I'm looking forward to it continuing.

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Tim Winders: I'm concerned the

good stuff might be off recording,

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but we will, do the best we can.

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Hey, first

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Absolutely.

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Tim Winders: First question.

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It's like a deep question.

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Would

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Okay.

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rather answer what do

you do or who are you?

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Pick, pick it and start answering

whichever one you want to answer.

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Who are you?

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Tim Winders: Okay, go.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Who are you?

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I am a, follower of Christ cleverly

disguised as a husband of, 43 years.

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A, father of two amazing men,

and a daughter-in-law and two.

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Amazing.

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What my highest honor, is I'm a

grandfather of two grandsons, so

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that's the badge I hold closest to me.

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So cleverly disguised,

but a follower of Christ.

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Tim Winders: Yeah.

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I believe that you might agree with me

that the best thing described, eh, we

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don't wanna take away from the follower

of Christ, but being a grandparent

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Oh my gosh.

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Tim Winders: is the best thing ever.

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Now I've got two granddaughters,

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Hmm.

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Tim Winders: I don't, I don't know if

we need to connect down the road or

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stay away from each other, but, but

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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That, that must milk you.

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I know what I spend, but

that must milk you dry.

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yeah.

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I

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Tim Winders: it is phenomenal.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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That's why you're homeless.

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Tim Winders: Well, yes.

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I mean, 'cause we travel towards them.

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I think you shared with me you're

three minutes away from yours,

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Yeah.

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Tim Winders: be phenomenal.

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You know, we did FaceTime with ours.

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they're in Colorado Springs.

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We're in Atlanta right now.

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But joke with people, I used to say,

and I don't, I don't know that I've

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got real good scripture for this

or theology or anything like that.

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I used to say that parenting was,

when you learned how God looked at us,

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Hmm.

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Tim Winders: Vince and some people,

this could be dependent on how

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they look at the nature of God.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Hmm.

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Tim Winders: that

grandparenting is the real deal

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Yeah.

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Tim Winders: you've got the unconditional

they can do no wrong love for them,

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Yeah,

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Tim Winders: and you don't

really have to raise 'em.

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they still have to go get

raised and all on their own.

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Is that, is that theologically sound?

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Do I need to, do I need to repent of that?

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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it's in third Hezekiah two eight,

uh, is scriptural basis for that.

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I mean, I love that analogy 'cause we are

the embodiment of grace as grandparents.

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Right.

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Tim Winders: I,

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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And yes, Very, very much so.

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I've heard someone say it's the only

thing in life that's not overrated.

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it has been fantastic.

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our younger son is about to get

married in, three weeks and, we're

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hoping they get pregnant right

away but they're out of town.

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we are all in on this.

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it's been a dream.

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We love that.

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Tim Winders: We've either

endeared ourselves to some of the

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audience or chased a few away.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Or just everybody, just like you can see,

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Tim Winders: Yeah, I've gotta ask

something right out of the gate here,

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since I've found out who you are and the

most important things, everything else

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becomes secondary to that grandparenting

thing, theological anthropology.

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Is that a real thing or are

we making stuff up here?

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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that's a real icebreaker at, parties.

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Right?

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Tim Winders: you

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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if you wanna,

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Tim Winders: You are.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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if you wanna shut down a

conversation really quick, people

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are like, oh, so nice to meet you.

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it's not as bad as it sounds.

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So, uh, theological theos, the

study of God, anthropology,

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anthro the study of humans or man.

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theological anthropology is a

study of, Our encounter with God.

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So our relationship, that's in a tight

nutshell, theological anthropology is a

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study of, how we engage with the divine.

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Tim Winders: Hmm.

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Have you, is that something you did

early in life with that study, or

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is it something later or, this is

probably my way of sort of diving

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into your journey a little bit before

we into Whispers of the Spirit.

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Great book that you've got

out right now, and also your

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Mm.

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Tim Winders: on ai.

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we'll get to the exciting AI

stuff here in just a second.

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But tell me, is this a later in life

journey for you, or have you always

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been a theological anthropologist?

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Well, back in seventh grade, we won't do

that story again, but, I came to Christ,

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I became aware of Christ, in God's

calling, me to him, in eighth grade and

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bit hard and early and ran with that.

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And I, was surrounded early by some

amazing teachers and people that discipled

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me well and loved and cared for me,

through some really difficult for all

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of us if you're an adolescent, and

really navigated through some of those.

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So, I was walking the path fairly early

and never really strayed, of course,

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but, never really had one of those

moments where I, walked away from God.

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And, he and I have had, definitely

have some, some con conversations

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after, college, went into business,

went into advertising, went into

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vocational ministry about 30 years ago.

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my joke was, I would hire people

that went to seminary, but, I didn't

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go I was running an organization

for the Billy Graham team actually.

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And, and so, being in Dallas,

knew everybody over at

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Dallas, theological Seminary.

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And was talking to them one

day and they said, oh my gosh,

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you should really do this.

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And, I went to seminary relatively late.

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I've always been a bit of a tech

nerd, so a lot of my writing early

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on in seminary was the crossroads

of theology and technology.

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Current, but even ancient technology

and theology, how we've all through

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scripture, in fact, leverage various

forms of technology, whether it's

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the printing press or back further,

even the, arc of the covenant or,

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casting of lots and things like that.

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And so I wrote extensively on theology

and technology, getting my doctorate,

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you have to kind of narrow down that.

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And at the time, decided to

focus in on, ai, which was

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nuts because it didn't exist.

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It had open AI hadn't even launched yet.

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But early on, about five years ago now,

I started working on, AI specifically,

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and its effects on spirituality.

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Couldn't get a return phone call.

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Um, and now I'm on podcasts all the time.

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So it's, the timing has been amazing.

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I need to send a thank

you note to Sam Altman.

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But, yeah, it's been a,

it's been a fun ride.

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Tim Winders: Yeah, I will say, I

mean, as I did my research, there's

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so many other cool things about you.

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However, that AI and spirituality

topic was the hook that drew

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Sure.

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Tim Winders: I spend

a few hours a day plus

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Mm-hmm.

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Tim Winders: with ai, different

technologies, doing different

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things, and, you know, we'll get

into the spiritual aspect of it.

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But, so how was, how was, um, seminary

and, and I wanna preface it by saying,

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first of all, we're not gonna throw

anybody or anything under the bus.

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However, I went to a bible school,

which is not seminary, by the way.

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I, I, I do know there's a

difference between those.

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And I went a little bit later in life.

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My wife and I were probably

50 in our early fifties.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Mm-hmm.

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Tim Winders: And I tell people it

was, for me, it was a dickens tale.

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It was the best of times.

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It was the worst of times because it

was, you know, I loved being around some

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of the people that were kind of going

after just learning more about Jesus.

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But Christians are some of the

toughest people to be around.

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And I'm wondering in seminary if it's

like Christian squared or you know,

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super Christians and, I'm sure there's

a lot of love and things like that, but

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I'm sure there's a lot of jockeying for

position and people that are ambitious.

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What's, what's that like?

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I, I prefaced it with a lot of things

to, to hook you into saying some things.

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But if it was awesome, say it was awesome.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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It gave me a lot of things

to get me in trouble.

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Right.

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Okay.

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There you go.

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Just chumming the water.

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I don't know that it's that much

different than Bible, college.

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I mean, I went to Baylor University,

so, I, I'm familiar with the, the, the

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archetype that you're referring to.

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it, it depends.

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One of the things I, I still find

myself doing is, is cautioning people,

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that want to go to, Bible college or I

guess more specifically seminary, which

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is more, I guess, singular in focus.

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You're not having to take chemistry,

but, you know, or math or whatever.

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But, I, I caution them to answer

the question of why, why, why do

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you wanna, why do you wanna do this?

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And, because it's.

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It's not a Bible study.

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It's a really expensive Bible study.

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there are better Bible studies for

free, so be careful about that.

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I've got nothing but glowing, reviews

for DTS, but some of the early, early

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professors I had, the focus wasn't

so much to teach me theology, but

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teach me how to think about theology.

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the very first class I had was, St 1 0

1, systematic Theology 1 0 1 with Dr.

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Glenn Kreider.

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the very first assignment I had was to

write a personal definition of theology.

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it went on from there to write a

definition of infallibility and

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inspiration and things like that.

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And so it really taught me how to

think like a theologian, which involves

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blowing a lot of things up, you know,

is just word after word, just the

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exegetical study of why, why, why

cross-referencing, why, why, why.

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And, really, really enjoy that.

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quick story that one of the papers

I had to write for him was, a review

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of a book of a pastor, a professor,

that had been let go from DTS

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because of his theological views.

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And I won't mention who.

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And so I had to read the

book and review it, and I'm

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thinking, what do I do with this?

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'cause obviously I can't agree with the

book 'cause, you know, he was let go.

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So but I'm reading the book going, man,

he's making some really good points.

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I don't know what to do with this.

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And so I meet with a professor

and I'm like, I just don't know

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what you want me to do with this

because, and I told him why.

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And he's like, ah, that's so

disappointing, drew, because I was really

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hoping this startup guy who doesn't

have a master's degree yet could help

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me, who has like five PhDs could help

me decide on my view on the, he said,

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drew, I know where I am on this topic.

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You're not gonna convince me one

way or the other, but I want you

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to try, I want you to show me

that you know how to process this.

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So that really to me is seminary along

the way, you bump into a lot of people

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who are just trying to get some letters

after their name so they can get a

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better job, keep a job, get a better one.

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Sure all that's in place, but,

to me, I always start with why

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do you wanna go to seminary?

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And then, what is it you wanna get

out of it and be prepared to have your

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world flipped upside down because a

really good professor's gonna do that.

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And, just to make you stop and go.

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But I thought I always,

you know, whatever.

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So, anyway, that's my experience

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Tim Winders: What's interesting and

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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and a magnitude, when

you get your doctorate,

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Tim Winders: Oh

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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it just.

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Tim Winders: magnified even more so.

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So one of the things that we noticed after

spending a couple years, you know, with

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four or five hours a day doing classes,

and then the studies, literally I heard,

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I wish I had a dollar for every time

I heard people at the end of those two

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years say, oh my, I'm glad I'm finished

with that so I could, you know, dig

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in and get closer to the Lord again.

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And I'm, I'm wondering if you

saw any of that in seminary.

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You know, it becomes more of

an exercise the relationship.

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And maybe I'm in a place in my life

where that relationship is, is, is

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maybe more critical than it has been.

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But, uh,

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Oh yeah, I'm still waiting.

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I'm still waiting for

those feelings to end.

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I still early on started struggling.

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I, I, I've read, so many research

articles on what percentage of

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us as believers, whether it's

through the Aversion Bible app.

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They do some amazing statistics

and research on, how much

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time we spend with the word.

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I love, was it, is it moody?

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that, I spend an hour a day in

prayer unless I'm really busy.

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Then I spend two.

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and I really felt convicted

by things like that.

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and I would look back at my day and

realized, heck, too, I spent five

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hours today in the word, you know, and

thinking, boy, check, check, check, check.

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look how great a Christian I am.

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Until I really realized,

no, I really didn't.

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I spent five hours studying for an

assignment or preparing for a test,

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but just me sitting down with the word

under a tree and just soaking in the

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present, ah, no, that's different.

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And I still fight that daily.

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whether it's prepping for a podcast

or writing this book or whatever, and

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thinking, boy, look at how great I am.

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Look at how much time I'm

spending with the Lord.

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But there's a difference between writing

a book and spending time with the Lord.

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I struggled with that.

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I recognized it early, but it's

still something I fight all the time.

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Tim Winders: Well, I think we have, and

this probably is gonna start leading

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into some technology discussions, most

people lead a very distracted life.

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There's so much going on.

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I notice with myself, we sometimes

pride ourselves on multitasking

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and doing eight things at once

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Mm-hmm.

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Tim Winders: doing any of it very well.

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Dr. Drew Dickens:

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Mm-hmm.

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Tim Winders: rewarded in the workplace

if you can do a few things, you know?

325

: 00:14:59

Okay.

326

: 00:15:00

And, and I've come to terms over

the last few years, and some

327

: 00:15:05

of it was related to my father.

328

: 00:15:06

My father passed away a few years

ago with cognitive decay and I, and I

329

: 00:15:11

Dr. Drew Dickens:

330

: 00:15:11

So sorry.

331

: 00:15:12

Tim Winders: I started thinking

more about what is all swimming

332

: 00:15:14

around or whatever in there.

333

: 00:15:16

And I'm going, you know what?

334

: 00:15:18

I think I wanna start creating some space.

335

: 00:15:21

You know, if that's a

good thing or a bad thing.

336

: 00:15:23

I, I, I don't know, I just wanted

337

: 00:15:24

Dr. Drew Dickens:

338

: 00:15:24

That's a great thing.

339

: 00:15:25

Tim Winders: to think.

340

: 00:15:27

Pause, be still, and, and I think,

and this will start probably merging

341

: 00:15:34

us again into a technology, you

know, internet, phones, ai, maybe.

342

: 00:15:40

I think those things be the

distractions to the nth degree that

343

: 00:15:46

you and I when we were younger, you

know, we had 10 things coming at us.

344

: 00:15:50

Now we've got a thousand things

345

: 00:15:52

Dr. Drew Dickens:

346

: 00:15:52

Yeah.

347

: 00:15:53

Tim Winders: at us.

348

: 00:15:53

Dr. Drew Dickens:

349

: 00:15:53

Mm-hmm.

350

: 00:15:54

Tim Winders: a little bit about

just distractions and how that is

351

: 00:15:58

maybe a little bit of foundational

as we start moving into, you know,

352

: 00:16:01

technology and what it can do well

and what it can problems with.

353

: 00:16:07

Dr. Drew Dickens:

354

: 00:16:07

Well, I'll help you bridge into technology

by, what I mentioned a moment ago.

355

: 00:16:13

But this isn't new.

356

: 00:16:14

It's, there's a magnitude of scale.

357

: 00:16:16

Correct.

358

: 00:16:17

I agree with you on that.

359

: 00:16:18

of the things that, you and I used

to, fight against, it was a lot

360

: 00:16:23

easier to disengage maybe, back when

we were kids, but I'm also a hundred

361

: 00:16:28

percent confident that our parents and

grandparents had that same conversation.

362

: 00:16:34

So I don't know that

the conversation is new.

363

: 00:16:37

perhaps, it scaled.

364

: 00:16:39

I'm sure it has scaled.

365

: 00:16:41

if I could sit down with my

grandparents and show them my day,

366

: 00:16:45

I'm sure it would melt their brain

on the things that we're navigating.

367

: 00:16:49

But I'm quite confident they

felt distracted by radio.

368

: 00:16:54

what interests me is with technology

is, how often, and this isn't as big

369

: 00:17:01

of a leap as it may sound, but, I've

always been fascinated with the use

370

: 00:17:05

of technology, which we might have

dismissed as secular distractions that

371

: 00:17:12

we tend to use to engage with God.

372

: 00:17:15

One of the first things that I came

across, and it's in, a lot of the writings

373

: 00:17:20

of the early kings and the minor and

the major prophets, you see it first

374

: 00:17:24

in Exodus is, in the priestly garments,

they wore an, orum, which is not a

375

: 00:17:31

verse, it's on anybody's coffee mug.

376

: 00:17:33

it's often mentioned

in context of inquiry.

377

: 00:17:38

So, whenever now we're going back 2000

bc but in those days when they were

378

: 00:17:44

being distracted, they were aching

to inquire of God just like we do.

379

: 00:17:51

And so this Orman tum

was some kind of device.

380

: 00:17:54

We don't know what it was, but

there's an and in the title.

381

: 00:17:58

So the general idea is it

was some sort of binary.

382

: 00:18:03

Stone perhaps, but a front

and a back of something.

383

: 00:18:06

But they wore it in an ephod in a

pocket on their vest as the priests did.

384

: 00:18:12

It had 12 stones covering the front of it.

385

: 00:18:15

and so there was this device, and

all through scripture in the early

386

: 00:18:18

scriptures, when it talked about them

inquiring of God about a battle or

387

: 00:18:23

whether to go to or who to or whatever,

they would consult this orman tum.

388

: 00:18:29

So this, a basic device, a stone

that you would see on the ground.

389

: 00:18:32

they would use it as a divine tool, in

scripture where you know about the laying

390

: 00:18:37

out of a fleece, whether it was wet the

next day, would be an inquiry of God.

391

: 00:18:43

The arc of the covenant, and we know

this from, not from scripture, but

392

: 00:18:47

from Raiders of the Lost Ark, right?

393

: 00:18:49

is a means of communicating with God.

394

: 00:18:52

and so we have these devices and, up

until Acts two, all through scripture,

395

: 00:18:57

we see the use of casting of lots.

396

: 00:18:59

so we see basic things that might have

been used as games or, devices for

397

: 00:19:05

gambling or a rug in front of your door.

398

: 00:19:08

all these things that would be distracting

to us, we have seen in scripture being

399

: 00:19:11

able to use them as means of inquiry.

400

: 00:19:14

And that's always really fascinated me.

401

: 00:19:17

So yes, the distraction's always

there, but, I've always been interested

402

: 00:19:21

on how we use those distractions,

as a means of engaging with God.

403

: 00:19:26

And, and, and think of it.

404

: 00:19:28

We, we do this even now.

405

: 00:19:29

How many times a day do we say

something like, man, the Lord

406

: 00:19:33

just told me to give you a call.

407

: 00:19:36

Well, boy, now I'm Isaiah.

408

: 00:19:39

Right now I'm a mouthpiece

of the living God.

409

: 00:19:43

Uh, and words are important.

410

: 00:19:45

Um, or how many times have we said,

boy, that song came on the radio

411

: 00:19:48

and just spoke to me or look at

that sunset and what that did to me.

412

: 00:19:52

So we're always about things that might

be distractions, but we find the Holy

413

: 00:19:57

Spirit finds ways to, engage those devices

to inquire and to an encounter with God.

414

: 00:20:05

Tim Winders: Yeah, and I just, as, as

you were speaking there, I was thinking

415

: 00:20:08

to myself, I said, you know what?

416

: 00:20:10

One of the things we typically don't

have consuming us is survival, you

417

: 00:20:18

know, which is quite the distraction.

418

: 00:20:20

you know, how, what am I going to eat?

419

: 00:20:22

How can I stay alive?

420

: 00:20:24

You know, something is attempting to

kill me, eat meat, something like that.

421

: 00:20:30

So, you know, could be, I, I.

422

: 00:20:34

I used to joke with people, there was

someone a while back that they were

423

: 00:20:39

speaking to their grandfather and they

asked their grandfather the question of,

424

: 00:20:43

you know, Hey, you know, grandfather, what

was your, what was your purpose in life?

425

: 00:20:47

What do you think your, what

were your, your meaning in life?

426

: 00:20:50

You know, they grew up in the twenties or

thirties and he goes, meaning, purpose.

427

: 00:20:54

I got up every day and went to work so

I can make some money and come home.

428

: 00:20:57

Dr. Drew Dickens:

429

: 00:20:57

Right,

430

: 00:20:58

Tim Winders: about meaning or purpose.

431

: 00:20:59

we've

432

: 00:20:59

Dr. Drew Dickens:

433

: 00:20:59

right.

434

: 00:20:59

Tim Winders: extra time to fill

with things like that and we've

435

: 00:21:02

got time to think and all that.

436

: 00:21:04

Dr. Drew Dickens:

437

: 00:21:04

Yeah.

438

: 00:21:05

Tim Winders: at what point did you move

from just what we'll call, you know,

439

: 00:21:12

internet, technology, phones, whatever

things, and this ai I think earlier you

440

: 00:21:16

said you kind of got into that before

AI was on the tip of everybody's tongue.

441

: 00:21:21

Right?

442

: 00:21:22

Dr. Drew Dickens:

443

: 00:21:22

apparently because I couldn't get a

return phone call from anybody about it.

444

: 00:21:26

so when I finished.

445

: 00:21:27

Tim Winders: like, you

look like an early adopter.

446

: 00:21:29

you've got an early

adopter look about you,

447

: 00:21:32

Dr. Drew Dickens:

448

: 00:21:32

I,

449

: 00:21:32

Tim Winders: you

450

: 00:21:32

Dr. Drew Dickens:

451

: 00:21:32

I should have my Facebook hoodie

on right now or something.

452

: 00:21:35

when I speak to groups, I always

feel tempted to wear a hoodie.

453

: 00:21:38

I think they're disappointed when they

see this granddad get up on stage.

454

: 00:21:42

what does this guy know?

455

: 00:21:43

so boy, when did that, great question.

456

: 00:21:46

I need to do some research on that.

457

: 00:21:48

there was, I wanna avoid

nerding out on this too much.

458

: 00:21:52

there was some early, developments

in, Ai AI really begins as we

459

: 00:21:57

understand it now, in World War ii.

460

: 00:22:00

Alan Turing, in World War ii, but

it went through a couple of winters.

461

: 00:22:04

they call 'em AI winters.

462

: 00:22:05

We may be in one now.

463

: 00:22:07

It really started to flourish

again, in the,: 1980

464

: 00:22:13

But it, but again, in the

: 2000

465

: 00:22:17

and a couple of things all hit at

once that really grabbed my attention.

466

: 00:22:21

I'll focus on one of 'em really quick.

467

: 00:22:23

there's a game called

Go, if you're familiar.

468

: 00:22:25

Are you familiar with it?

469

: 00:22:26

think, chess, but at a magnitude

of scale beyond that, it's

470

: 00:22:31

the most difficult strategic

strategy board game known to man.

471

: 00:22:35

It's been around, invented in China

some a thousand years or so ago.

472

: 00:22:39

Incredibly simple to play,

but impossible to master.

473

: 00:22:43

if you remember Deep Blue, which was

IBM's, supercomputer that beat, Casper

474

: 00:22:48

off in chess about 20 years ago.

475

: 00:22:51

it was, always assumed a computer would

never win at the game of Go because

476

: 00:22:57

it involves a lot of sacrifice, not

unlike chess, but more so and so I

477

: 00:23:01

thought it can never comprehend that.

478

: 00:23:04

So Lee Al was, the world

champion, go Player.

479

: 00:23:09

Google had just come out with a division

called Deep Mind, their first AI division.

480

: 00:23:15

they went to task to develop an AI system.

481

: 00:23:18

this was about the time I

started doing some more scholarly

482

: 00:23:22

research into AI the ethics around

it, the philosophy around it.

483

: 00:23:28

they built this program and they

played Lisa Dole, a set of four

484

: 00:23:32

matches, one match, four games.

485

: 00:23:36

and your listeners can

actually look this up.

486

: 00:23:38

It's called Move 36.

487

: 00:23:40

just Google Move 36 and the 36th

move of the first game of Deep Mind.

488

: 00:23:48

they eventually call

the platform Alpha Go.

489

: 00:23:52

Of playing Lee,

490

: 00:23:55

it's worth to watch the video

because Lee is very stoic anyway.

491

: 00:23:59

he makes no mistakes.

492

: 00:24:00

World champion and AlphaGo makes a move.

493

: 00:24:05

and the entire room just gasps.

494

: 00:24:07

They think it's a mistake.

495

: 00:24:08

It's just the dumbest

move you could ever play.

496

: 00:24:11

and they thought, See, alpha

go AI's made a mistake.

497

: 00:24:15

It was a legal move, but it made no sense.

498

: 00:24:18

And Lee starts looking at.

499

: 00:24:21

And starts to weep and leans

back and leaves the table.

500

: 00:24:27

He actually goes outside and smokes

a cigarette that's on the video,

501

: 00:24:30

comes back in and is shaking.

502

: 00:24:34

four moves later.

503

: 00:24:35

He concedes the game.

504

: 00:24:36

He called the move the Hand of God.

505

: 00:24:40

He said, because a human would never

have thought of making that move.

506

: 00:24:45

It wasn't just some brute force

programming where, it was a

507

: 00:24:48

completely innovative move that a

human would never have thought of.

508

: 00:24:52

That got my attention, the hand of God.

509

: 00:24:56

God.

510

: 00:24:56

And so that's, I think probably what

started my journey is what happened there.

511

: 00:25:00

Tim Winders: what was the timeframe?

512

: 00:25:01

Tell me what years that was.

513

: 00:25:03

Dr. Drew Dickens:

514

: 00:25:03

when did Alpha go start?

515

: 00:25:04

Tim Winders: I

516

: 00:25:05

Dr. Drew Dickens:

517

: 00:25:05

I'm gonna Google that.

518

: 00:25:06

Tim Winders: 10 years.

519

: 00:25:06

20 years.

520

: 00:25:08

Dr. Drew Dickens:

521

: 00:25:08

10.

522

: 00:25:09

Tim Winders: I I'm sitting here thinking

about my first, you know, when open eye

523

: 00:25:13

hit, I think it was November of, it 22,

21, where it really, when I jumped on, you

524

: 00:25:21

know, my wife and I jumped on it before

525

: 00:25:23

Dr. Drew Dickens:

526

: 00:25:23

Yeah, 10 years.

527

: 00:25:24

20, 20 16 was the, was

the game was the match.

528

: 00:25:27

So 10, yeah, 10.

529

: 00:25:28

10 years.

530

: 00:25:28

Tim Winders: Okay, good.

531

: 00:25:29

So, 10 years, things

have changed quite a bit.

532

: 00:25:33

Dr. Drew Dickens:

533

: 00:25:33

Yeah.

534

: 00:25:34

Tim Winders: is AI the right, this is

something that bothers me at times.

535

: 00:25:37

Like, uh, let me, I'm, I'm just

gonna give a pet peeve right here

536

: 00:25:40

that we don't have to get into.

537

: 00:25:41

It

538

: 00:25:42

Dr. Drew Dickens:

539

: 00:25:42

in.

540

: 00:25:42

Tim Winders: it bugs the heck outta

me every time there's some scandal

541

: 00:25:46

and they add gate to the end of it.

542

: 00:25:49

Dr. Drew Dickens:

543

: 00:25:49

Of course,

544

: 00:25:49

Tim Winders: mean anything about scandal

in all of that, but are we really

545

: 00:25:53

talking about artificial intelligence

or are we talking about machine

546

: 00:25:59

learning, or do we have a misnomer

here that's also messing with people?

547

: 00:26:05

Dr. Drew Dickens:

548

: 00:26:05

great question.

549

: 00:26:05

so, AI is a branch of machine learning.

550

: 00:26:10

So machine learning is the, is the root

of all of this, that, again, that takes us

551

: 00:26:14

back to World War II and, and Alan Turing.

552

: 00:26:16

if your listeners have never watched

the movie, the Imitation Game,

553

: 00:26:21

is, what, did I get that right?

554

: 00:26:23

Game of Alan.

555

: 00:26:24

Imitation game.

556

: 00:26:24

Tim Winders: yeah.

557

: 00:26:25

Dr. Drew Dickens:

558

: 00:26:25

there was another movie, I didn't

wanna confuse it with, imitation Game.

559

: 00:26:27

Alan Turing is the scientist in World

War ii that hacked the Enigma, which

560

: 00:26:32

was the German, the Nazi code machine.

561

: 00:26:36

and he broke it, with AI essentially.

562

: 00:26:39

so it started there.

563

: 00:26:40

so that was really the

birth of machine learning.

564

: 00:26:43

So it was learning this coding

system that changed every day, every

565

: 00:26:47

morning, every night at midnight.

566

: 00:26:49

and, so that was machine learning.

567

: 00:26:50

AI is a derivative of machine learning.

568

: 00:26:54

And really, you can break

it down just by the words.

569

: 00:26:56

so is it learning?

570

: 00:26:59

you can, could do a very philosophical

conversation about intelligence.

571

: 00:27:03

but It is, I, I think, I think the

word to to camp on would, would

572

: 00:27:07

be imitation, artificial rather.

573

: 00:27:10

so it is artificially, and there's

another, just, just out in the last

574

: 00:27:15

couple of days and a, a, a new term

called, uh, SCI, seemingly conscious ai,

575

: 00:27:20

which I'd love to get into in a moment.

576

: 00:27:22

but it's artificial.

577

: 00:27:23

It's, it's, it's artificially creating an

encounter, meant to simulate, the divine

578

: 00:27:32

human, creation of, of our, of our brain.

579

: 00:27:35

So, it, it artificially creates

neurons, neural networks, to

580

: 00:27:41

artificially simulate what intelligence

looks like as we engage with it.

581

: 00:27:46

So that was a long answer.

582

: 00:27:48

It's a great question.

583

: 00:27:49

I think it is a bit of a misnomer.

584

: 00:27:51

A lot of people have tried

other ones, but AI is here.

585

: 00:27:54

AI was coined.

586

: 00:27:56

in a paper, written, at Stanford in

: 1950

587

: 00:28:02

anywhere, but, it is a bit of misnomer

and intelligence may be misleading.

588

: 00:28:07

Artificial isn't, it is

definitely artificial, but

589

: 00:28:10

I'm not sure it's intelligent.

590

: 00:28:12

Tim Winders: There are times, even

today, I'm a fairly heavy user.

591

: 00:28:16

I

592

: 00:28:16

Dr. Drew Dickens:

593

: 00:28:16

Mm-hmm.

594

: 00:28:17

Tim Winders: documents,

I review legal things.

595

: 00:28:19

I actually do a lot of Bible study

596

: 00:28:21

Dr. Drew Dickens:

597

: 00:28:21

Mm-hmm.

598

: 00:28:22

Tim Winders: my tools.

599

: 00:28:23

Dr. Drew Dickens:

600

: 00:28:23

Mm-hmm.

601

: 00:28:23

Tim Winders: the, the spiritual and

the Christian aspect of this shortly.

602

: 00:28:27

But are times when I

am so wowed and amazed.

603

: 00:28:31

Dr. Drew Dickens:

604

: 00:28:31

Mm-hmm.

605

: 00:28:32

Tim Winders: I don't believe, you

know, sentient or anything like that.

606

: 00:28:35

I'm not super concerned about that.

607

: 00:28:37

Maybe you are.

608

: 00:28:38

We'll talk about it shortly, I am like

going, oh my gosh, this is incredible.

609

: 00:28:43

And we are in trouble as humans.

610

: 00:28:46

then shortly after that, something

will happen and I go, nah, we're good.

611

: 00:28:50

We're fine.

612

: 00:28:52

it'll just totally wig out and

start, you know, just flopping on the

613

: 00:28:56

pavement or on my screen and it'll

be, you know, overloading or whatever.

614

: 00:29:01

I'm with a.

615

: 00:29:02

Company now I'm COO that, uh, see

what information I can give here.

616

: 00:29:07

We're, we're of the data

center, craze that's going on,

617

: 00:29:13

Dr. Drew Dickens:

618

: 00:29:13

Mm-hmm.

619

: 00:29:14

Tim Winders: you're aware that

there is an insatiable appetite

620

: 00:29:18

for handling all of this data.

621

: 00:29:20

And I don't believe we're keeping

up and I'm not sure that we can.

622

: 00:29:23

We're trying and, we are riding that wave

with some of the things we're able to do.

623

: 00:29:29

there's big money that's

being thrown around.

624

: 00:29:32

But I say all that to say are,

are we heading towards, this is

625

: 00:29:37

like going to deep question here.

626

: 00:29:39

Are we heading towards something that

we need to really be concerned about?

627

: 00:29:44

Or is it just another technology

and there are people that are

628

: 00:29:48

up in arms and all whatever.

629

: 00:29:51

So, what say you.

630

: 00:29:53

Dr. Drew Dickens:

631

: 00:29:53

we can go a hundred

different directions there.

632

: 00:29:55

Tim Winders: Pick the

633

: 00:29:56

Dr. Drew Dickens:

634

: 00:29:56

let me first touch on, let me first

touch on something about power, which you

635

: 00:30:00

alluded to a moment ago with data centers.

636

: 00:30:03

Here's an interesting stat,

uh, currently, and I'm in Texas

637

: 00:30:08

currently, AI data centers, comprise

10% of the Texas power grid.

638

: 00:30:17

in the next five years,

that's estimated to be 35%.

639

: 00:30:22

Tim Winders: Yeah,

640

: 00:30:22

They want it

641

: 00:30:23

Dr. Drew Dickens:

642

: 00:30:23

uh, yeah.

643

: 00:30:25

Yes.

644

: 00:30:26

Just for, just for training the,

for training these language models.

645

: 00:30:30

they won it all.

646

: 00:30:31

in fact, meta Facebook,

just bought a nuclear power

647

: 00:30:35

plant, just south of Chicago.

648

: 00:30:37

It had been mothballed for

some reason, regulation.

649

: 00:30:40

They just bought a nuclear power

plant just for AI data centers.

650

: 00:30:45

So, there's a lot going on just

with the infrastructure of ai.

651

: 00:30:50

you mentioned, is it

just the next technology?

652

: 00:30:54

another direction I would love to

go on is one of the things that's

653

: 00:30:57

frustrating me is how, and I applaud

you for having this podcast today,

654

: 00:31:02

and listeners to this podcast, I

applaud him for having this, for the

655

: 00:31:06

boldness of having this conversation.

656

: 00:31:07

Because for the most part, I

think the church is, is crickets

657

: 00:31:12

silent right now on, on ai.

658

: 00:31:15

And that's, it's sad, but

it's dangerous right now.

659

: 00:31:20

And we can get into why in a moment.

660

: 00:31:21

so thank you for having this conversation.

661

: 00:31:24

It's, it's bold of you to even have

the conversation, but one of the

662

: 00:31:26

things that I hear about when I

speak at churches is, oh, it's just

663

: 00:31:30

the, oh, it's just the next blank.

664

: 00:31:34

And you know, I'm thinking back in the.

665

: 00:31:36

20.

666

: 00:31:37

Oh, when did cell phones?

667

: 00:31:38

20?

668

: 00:31:39

Was that 20 years ago?

669

: 00:31:41

In the two thou, early two thousands.

670

: 00:31:43

And how, what cell phones did to the

church, you know, back I was teaching

671

: 00:31:48

high school, senior Sunday school,

and what that did, to my world.

672

: 00:31:52

so is this just the next cell phone?

673

: 00:31:54

Is this the next internet?

674

: 00:31:56

Is this the next, you know, whatever.

675

: 00:31:58

and, and, and in a bold, all caps?

676

: 00:32:01

No, just because of the.

677

: 00:32:04

Capital expenditure just because

of the infrastructure around

678

: 00:32:08

it, how embedded it already is.

679

: 00:32:10

It's not a consumer product that we

can just, oh, it's the next video

680

: 00:32:14

game and we can wait a minute.

681

: 00:32:15

It'll be onto something else.

682

: 00:32:16

It's not really a consumer product.

683

: 00:32:18

I mean, consumers engage with it.

684

: 00:32:19

Sure, you do.

685

: 00:32:20

I do.

686

: 00:32:21

We all do, frankly, and

we can talk about that.

687

: 00:32:23

But, it's not really a consumer

product that we're gonna come

688

: 00:32:25

out with, like the the 2.0

689

: 00:32:27

version, and we're all going

to throw the other ones in it.

690

: 00:32:30

But the infrastructure, the

corporate, use of it, no.

691

: 00:32:33

This isn't just the next thing.

692

: 00:32:36

should we be afraid?

693

: 00:32:38

I mean, biblically, no.

694

: 00:32:39

we're not to be a people of fear.

695

: 00:32:41

God didn't, it's like, oh, wow.

696

: 00:32:43

Didn't see AI coming.

697

: 00:32:44

So this isn't a surprise to anyone.

698

: 00:32:46

He has engaged with technology,

since Genesis one, Genesis two.

699

: 00:32:51

and, so it's nothing new, but we need

to, the word I always use is discerning.

700

: 00:32:57

we need to be all eyes open.

701

: 00:33:00

it is affecting.

702

: 00:33:01

We're affected by AI every day.

703

: 00:33:04

I get questions all the time about,

well, I've just chosen not to

704

: 00:33:08

be, not to do it, not to use it.

705

: 00:33:10

Well, that ship has sailed.

706

: 00:33:13

If you go onto Netflix tonight

and it says, suggested movies.

707

: 00:33:15

Welcome to ai.

708

: 00:33:17

If you get onto Facebook and it says,

suggested friends, welcome to ai.

709

: 00:33:21

it is everywhere.

710

: 00:33:23

The ship has sailed.

711

: 00:33:24

We are all neck deep in AI right now.

712

: 00:33:26

there was a great article that came

out a year or so ago called, AI

713

: 00:33:29

Will Be Invisible in the Year 2025.

714

: 00:33:31

And what it meant was it's just gonna

become ubiquitous and, we're there.

715

: 00:33:36

should we be afraid of it,

we should be discerning.

716

: 00:33:39

we should go into this

with eyes wide open.

717

: 00:33:41

Should we be concerned?

718

: 00:33:43

not to be dystopian, but I, I think so.

719

: 00:33:46

I'm nervous for my grandkids, and

the world that they will grow up in.

720

: 00:33:50

they're both in early elementary

school and what their world will look

721

: 00:33:54

like in education, careers, job loss.

722

: 00:33:57

we're already seeing that, so I

think we should be concerned, but we

723

: 00:34:02

should as Christians be mindful and

discerning, as we should with everything.

724

: 00:34:07

it is here, it's powerful.

725

: 00:34:08

it's growing exponentially,

and, beyond exponentially.

726

: 00:34:12

So I saw a graph the other day.

727

: 00:34:13

It looked like a wall instead

of a up into the right.

728

: 00:34:17

and, but I think, I think we need

to be concerned and discerning.

729

: 00:34:20

Tim Winders: one thing that's interesting,

let's, go into the way the church and

730

: 00:34:24

Dr. Drew Dickens:

731

: 00:34:24

I.

732

: 00:34:24

Tim Winders: specifically

Christians may be looking at this.

733

: 00:34:28

Dr. Drew Dickens:

734

: 00:34:28

Mm-hmm.

735

: 00:34:29

Tim Winders: I'm part of

an organization that's the

736

: 00:34:31

Christian Podcasters Association

737

: 00:34:35

Dr. Drew Dickens:

738

: 00:34:35

Hmm.

739

: 00:34:35

Tim Winders: almost didn't wanna

mention their name, but anyway,

740

: 00:34:37

we've, you know, we at times get

together and talk and have mastermind

741

: 00:34:41

little sessions and stuff like that.

742

: 00:34:43

And, the leader of the organization

asked me to lead something

743

: 00:34:46

one time and discuss ai.

744

: 00:34:47

This was about two years ago.

745

: 00:34:49

Dr. Drew Dickens:

746

: 00:34:49

Wow.

747

: 00:34:50

Tim Winders: I've been a fairly

heavy user since day one.

748

: 00:34:54

Dr. Drew Dickens:

749

: 00:34:54

Mm-hmm.

750

: 00:34:55

Tim Winders: you know, my wife and I

are in our sixties but, but we are,

751

: 00:34:59

we're not early first adopters, but

we look for things that can, uh.

752

: 00:35:07

our lives, I guess is

the way of saying it.

753

: 00:35:09

And man, I noticed this

could do it right away.

754

: 00:35:11

So I, I get on this call and I'm

leading a group of podcasters and

755

: 00:35:15

I'm pretty darn amazed at the anti

756

: 00:35:21

Dr. Drew Dickens:

757

: 00:35:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

758

: 00:35:22

Tim Winders: sentiment

759

: 00:35:23

Dr. Drew Dickens:

760

: 00:35:23

Yes.

761

: 00:35:24

Tim Winders: even more drew some people

that were offended and quite upset

762

: 00:35:29

that I told them that if you take the

transcript from your podcast instead

763

: 00:35:34

of writing notes out by hand, you

could run it through a tool to script.

764

: 00:35:38

We talked about that before we, and it'll

spit out a transcript and then it'll

765

: 00:35:42

tell you what three of the best titles

are you could pick it or you could let

766

: 00:35:47

it pick it or you can make up your own.

767

: 00:35:49

They were really bothered

768

: 00:35:53

Dr. Drew Dickens:

769

: 00:35:53

Mm-hmm.

770

: 00:35:53

Tim Winders: what is up with that?

771

: 00:35:57

Dr. Drew Dickens:

772

: 00:35:57

my grandfather in-law was a pastor.

773

: 00:36:00

My wife is like a fifth generation,

Baptist preacher's kid, my

774

: 00:36:03

mother-in-law, amazing woman.

775

: 00:36:05

She's 91 and sharp as attack.

776

: 00:36:07

she still has her father, my

grandfather in-law's, pastoral library.

777

: 00:36:12

And, and on one of the shelves

is, a series, it's about two feet

778

: 00:36:17

long, this series of sermons, on

every topic, on every scripture.

779

: 00:36:25

this was a resource he could go

to, 70 years ago, for sermons,

780

: 00:36:32

we thought nothing of that.

781

: 00:36:33

but now we have a digital, digitized,

intelligent version of that.

782

: 00:36:39

but no doubt, 70 years ago he got

pushed back for having those books, that

783

: 00:36:44

were pre-written sermons and whatnot.

784

: 00:36:47

He's a brilliant man.

785

: 00:36:48

multiple, doctorates, and I'm

sure he used it as I'm sure he

786

: 00:36:51

didn't just pull one out and read

directly from it on Sunday mornings.

787

: 00:36:54

or maybe, I don't know,

never talked to him about it.

788

: 00:36:57

but I don't think this is anything new

we've always pushed back at, technology.

789

: 00:37:02

It's interesting we talk about

the printing press in Gutenberg

790

: 00:37:04

and 500 years ago, we talk about

printing the King James Bible.

791

: 00:37:08

but he also published some pretty

controversial, racist publications.

792

: 00:37:15

so there was a lot of blowback pushback

early on the printing press about, I'm not

793

: 00:37:19

gonna read this because it also printed

this, we saw that with, oh my gosh.

794

: 00:37:24

The internet, the phones, when I was

teaching in our youth group, we had a

795

: 00:37:28

sign up on the wall, turn your phones off.

796

: 00:37:31

Guess how well that worked.

797

: 00:37:32

but you know, we, the church has

always been cautious of technology,

798

: 00:37:37

so that, that doesn't surprise me.

799

: 00:37:39

I thought you were also going to say, I.

800

: 00:37:42

Again, which it is a hot button for me,

but how the people in that group you spoke

801

: 00:37:46

to were upset that you had been using it.

802

: 00:37:49

I also get upset when I hear how little

people are using it or aware of it.

803

: 00:37:57

One of the things I, unfortunately is we

will hear people say, oh yeah, ha ha ha.

804

: 00:38:02

I went to, I used grok and had it, make

a picture of my dog eating, you know,

805

: 00:38:09

drinking outta the toilet or whatever.

806

: 00:38:11

and we show the picture around

everybody giggles and we move on.

807

: 00:38:15

And I'm just like, it's, AI is not

just a meme generator, but we find

808

: 00:38:19

goofy little things that it does and we

laugh about it and dismiss it and move

809

: 00:38:23

on, and we don't take it seriously.

810

: 00:38:25

So I think that's one

of the many obstacles.

811

: 00:38:27

Two of them are, not taking it seriously.

812

: 00:38:31

and then secondly is the fear

and the anger, around it.

813

: 00:38:36

which is very shortsighted because

we felt that about everything that's

814

: 00:38:38

come around, and not seeing it as the,

things that now we take for granted.

815

: 00:38:43

using a projector, on a screen.

816

: 00:38:46

still upsets a lot of people,

but, that's what we do now.

817

: 00:38:49

microphones, having an electric

guitar, in the orchestra.

818

: 00:38:53

so we've always had some pushback,

definitely on the internet.

819

: 00:38:56

but now every church has a website,

820

: 00:38:58

Yeah, we get angry, we push

back and then we engage.

821

: 00:39:02

But unfortunately AI is moving

so fast that by the time we wake

822

: 00:39:07

up to this, it's gonna be, you

know, five years down the road.

823

: 00:39:12

I heard someone say that they don't

bother getting a PhD in AI right

824

: 00:39:15

now, because by the time you finish,

I mean, what's AI gonna look like?

825

: 00:39:19

I listen to podcasts that are updated

daily, and then sometimes are still out of

826

: 00:39:24

date by the time that the, episode airs.

827

: 00:39:27

So those are two of my concerns

are fear, anger, like you said,

828

: 00:39:32

and then not taking it seriously.

829

: 00:39:33

Tim Winders: The fear and anger I

want to talk about in just a little

830

: 00:39:36

while 'cause it feeds into, the

eschatology that we were talking

831

: 00:39:39

Dr. Drew Dickens:

832

: 00:39:39

Sure.

833

: 00:39:40

Tim Winders: record.

834

: 00:39:40

You've got an episode out with that.

835

: 00:39:42

I, I, you know, one of the things about

embracing it, I mean, this is something

836

: 00:39:47

that I, I've had some people, and they

may, this may be an anger thing too.

837

: 00:39:52

I mean, this morning I spent probably 45

minutes, on a study where I'm studying

838

: 00:39:59

the first century in as much depth as

I could possibly get into so that I

839

: 00:40:03

can understand the context of the New

Testament and when it was written,

840

: 00:40:07

who it was written to, et cetera.

841

: 00:40:10

I was on chat GPT this morning.

842

: 00:40:12

incorporated the writings of Josephus.

843

: 00:40:15

I incorporated the scriptures, new

Testament as many different versions

844

: 00:40:19

as I can incorporate into it.

845

: 00:40:21

incorporated some Old Testament

prophecies that spoke about what was

846

: 00:40:25

going to happen in the first century,

and I just pulled in a lot of stuff.

847

: 00:40:29

I don't have all the writings of Josephus.

848

: 00:40:32

I don't have Tacitus, I don't

have all of those things.

849

: 00:40:36

But boy,

850

: 00:40:38

Dr. Drew Dickens:

851

: 00:40:38

It does

852

: 00:40:39

Tim Winders: in 45 minutes I

wrote what could be a book.

853

: 00:40:44

I'll probably be posting some

of it on Facebook and tweaking

854

: 00:40:48

it wrote a timeline of, Roman.

855

: 00:40:52

Jerusalem, new Testament book

of Acts, timeline history

856

: 00:40:57

going through each decade,

857

: 00:41:00

Dr. Drew Dickens:

858

: 00:41:00

Hmm.

859

: 00:41:00

Tim Winders: a 10, 12 chapter of episodes.

860

: 00:41:03

It was off the charts exciting.

861

: 00:41:06

I was bouncing off the roof all day

862

: 00:41:08

Dr. Drew Dickens:

863

: 00:41:08

Yeah.

864

: 00:41:08

Right, right, right, right, right.

865

: 00:41:09

Yeah.

866

: 00:41:09

Tim Winders: on.

867

: 00:41:10

Dr. Drew Dickens:

868

: 00:41:10

Yeah.

869

: 00:41:11

Tim Winders: See, some people

would think I'm cheating or

870

: 00:41:13

dealing with the antichrist.

871

: 00:41:15

That's a topic we'll talk about

in just a little while, and they

872

: 00:41:17

But,

873

: 00:41:17

right.

874

: 00:41:18

Dr. Drew Dickens:

875

: 00:41:18

now you're gonna get

me all cranked up here.

876

: 00:41:20

Is it, is it cheating?

877

: 00:41:22

what would you have

done five years earlier?

878

: 00:41:25

you would've gotten on your bike

and gone down to the library?

879

: 00:41:29

no, you would've gotten on the

internet, and Googled that.

880

: 00:41:33

and then on Google, you're gonna get.

881

: 00:41:35

A hundred websites that you've

gotta then go to individually and

882

: 00:41:39

navigate your way through all that.

883

: 00:41:41

Before that, you go down to the church

library, you get on your bike, you go

884

: 00:41:45

to the library, then you go to the World

Book encyclopedias, So is that cheating?

885

: 00:41:49

Is it cheating to go

to the school library?

886

: 00:41:51

You know, so, I, I think we

need to be careful of something.

887

: 00:41:55

There's a great word I stumbled

across, I don't remember studying

888

: 00:41:59

it in my Greek, called aia,

A-C-E-I-D-A, Ceia, D-I-A-A-C-E-D-I-A.

889

: 00:42:10

And, and it's first started being used

by the Desert Fathers, of, of old, St.

890

: 00:42:14

Augustine.

891

: 00:42:15

everybody uses this phrase,

but it means spiritual sloth.

892

: 00:42:20

Is that awesome spiritual sloth

and I fall victim to it a lot.

893

: 00:42:28

one quick example of this, a

dear friend of mine, a couple,

894

: 00:42:32

we knew them in college.

895

: 00:42:33

He was a attorney brother.

896

: 00:42:35

she was my roommate's, sister

and I've known them for 50 years.

897

: 00:42:40

And she, was diagnosed with

cancer and struggled for a couple

898

: 00:42:43

of years and died recently.

899

: 00:42:45

we were out of town.

900

: 00:42:46

We weren't able to make the funeral and

so I sent a text to, my friend just to

901

: 00:42:53

tell him we wouldn't be able to come.

902

: 00:42:55

And I was struggling with the text.

903

: 00:42:57

You probably know where this is going,

and, just couldn't find the words.

904

: 00:43:01

It all just sounded so shallow.

905

: 00:43:03

Like, Hey, sorry to miss the funeral.

906

: 00:43:05

it was just so empty and

I thought, ah, I know.

907

: 00:43:10

So went into chat GPT and fed it.

908

: 00:43:13

All the details I could think of

and said, Mo, give me 20 words.

909

: 00:43:17

And it made me cry.

910

: 00:43:20

It was the most beautiful, poetic,

warm, compassionate, caring

911

: 00:43:26

text I could never have written.

912

: 00:43:29

Okay.

913

: 00:43:30

And I copied it, pasted into my

phone and went, I can't do it.

914

: 00:43:36

You know, they're just some things

that are supposed to be hard.

915

: 00:43:41

Okay, so I have done everything that you

just said, man, I've put to, I've chased

916

: 00:43:46

rabbits with AI and just had a blast and

just thinking, how did I end up here, man?

917

: 00:43:52

and you know, give me 10

verses and get me, oh my gosh.

918

: 00:43:56

And I just have such a blast.

919

: 00:43:58

But you know what?

920

: 00:43:58

There's just some stuff that's supposed

to be hard and I need to watch for

921

: 00:44:03

that because it's easy to just say.

922

: 00:44:06

And we can get into this with

pastors, it's just easy to say, oh

923

: 00:44:09

my gosh, look, it's Saturday night.

924

: 00:44:11

I'm beat, I've got a sermon in the

morning, I haven't written yet.

925

: 00:44:16

And you know what?

926

: 00:44:17

Give me 2000 words on Romans three and

I'm gonna go to bed and just read it.

927

: 00:44:23

And pastors have done that.

928

: 00:44:25

I know.

929

: 00:44:25

'cause I, I've read, you know, blogs

about it with great results by the way.

930

: 00:44:31

but there are just some things

that are supposed to be messy.

931

: 00:44:33

There's some things that

are supposed to be hard.

932

: 00:44:35

I agree with you and it's fun, but I think

a seedia, spiritual sloth is something

933

: 00:44:42

I think we need to be mindful of.

934

: 00:44:44

we spend so much time

talking about the products.

935

: 00:44:45

You mentioned a script earlier.

936

: 00:44:47

There's so many AI based products

that are designed for efficiencies.

937

: 00:44:54

and no doubt, a magnitude

of scale, you can do so much

938

: 00:44:57

more in your day by using ai.

939

: 00:45:00

but I think we need to be

careful of those products.

940

: 00:45:03

and that's a different line for everybody.

941

: 00:45:05

I'm not gonna tell you what yours

or mine should or shouldn't be,

942

: 00:45:09

but I think we need to be careful.

943

: 00:45:10

I think we need to embrace the fact

that, and we know that from scripture

944

: 00:45:14

it's hard to carry across every day.

945

: 00:45:17

but AI makes things easier.

946

: 00:45:18

But I think we need to be careful of that.

947

: 00:45:21

Tim Winders: Well, there's a word

you brought up earlier discernment,

948

: 00:45:24

Dr. Drew Dickens:

949

: 00:45:24

Mm-hmm.

950

: 00:45:25

Tim Winders: and it probably needs

to be injected here because it

951

: 00:45:28

sounds to me like you use discernment

before you push send on that text.

952

: 00:45:34

And here's the thing that we.

953

: 00:45:37

It may have been akay,

you know what I mean?

954

: 00:45:40

It may have that person to weep.

955

: 00:45:43

I had to send a very email yesterday

in the business setting where we had

956

: 00:45:50

somebody some money and they didn't

perform, and needed to word something

957

: 00:45:55

and I had a relationship with them,

but I need to say, Hey, listen, we're

958

: 00:45:59

gonna demand that money back because

you didn't perform in the way you

959

: 00:46:02

Dr. Drew Dickens:

960

: 00:46:02

Hmm.

961

: 00:46:02

Tim Winders: to.

962

: 00:46:03

Dr. Drew Dickens:

963

: 00:46:03

Yep, yep,

964

: 00:46:03

Tim Winders: emotion be injected in

that I needed to remove the emotion

965

: 00:46:09

Dr. Drew Dickens:

966

: 00:46:09

yep.

967

: 00:46:10

Tim Winders: and it did an excellent job.

968

: 00:46:11

Dr. Drew Dickens:

969

: 00:46:11

Yeah.

970

: 00:46:12

Tim Winders: I read it.

971

: 00:46:13

And, and you know, with mine, I wrote a

70,000 word novel, so I've trained mine.

972

: 00:46:20

it sounds.

973

: 00:46:23

It's a better me than me much of the time.

974

: 00:46:26

I hate

975

: 00:46:27

Dr. Drew Dickens:

976

: 00:46:27

Beautifully said.

977

: 00:46:28

Beautifully said.

978

: 00:46:29

Tim Winders: but it is so, so

here's, I wanna say, I wanna, I

979

: 00:46:31

want to kind of start getting to

things and I wanna discuss briefly

980

: 00:46:34

the whispers of the spirit, because

I think it relates, I, thoughts.

981

: 00:46:41

I will just say this and then

I'm gonna let you just, expand

982

: 00:46:44

on it or agree or disagree.

983

: 00:46:46

I believe that tools like

this are phones, the internet.

984

: 00:46:52

800 numbers back in the day.

985

: 00:46:54

I would, when I first went to work

for Bell South, we got this group

986

: 00:46:58

together in 1989, and they used, they

got some of the young people, I was

987

: 00:47:01

a young person then, and they said,

Hey, we're gonna talk about this new

988

: 00:47:04

thing coming out with the internet.

989

: 00:47:05

And one of the things we deduced was

that, the porn industry was gonna be

990

: 00:47:10

one of the most aggressive with the

internet, because that's what they

991

: 00:47:12

did with 900 numbers, 800 numbers, et

992

: 00:47:15

Dr. Drew Dickens:

993

: 00:47:15

VHS.

994

: 00:47:16

Tim Winders: At VHS and

all that kind of stuff.

995

: 00:47:17

and I think that repels or

offends Christians and they don't

996

: 00:47:23

embrace it like they should.

997

: 00:47:24

But to me, what we're seeing with

these items is someone with character,

998

: 00:47:32

that their general makeup is, let's

just say their soul is healthy.

999

: 00:47:37

And I don't know how to define

that, that this tool will magnify

: 1000

00:47:45,525 --> 00:47:45,526

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1001

00:47:45,526 --> 00:47:45,605

Hmm.

: 1002

00:47:45,635 --> 00:47:47,465

Tim Winders: if there's an unhealthiness.

: 1003

00:47:48,315 --> 00:47:48,316

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1004

00:47:48,316 --> 00:47:48,395

Hmm.

: 1005

00:47:48,395 --> 00:47:48,485

Tim Winders: It

: 1006

00:47:48,705 --> 00:47:48,706

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1007

00:47:48,706 --> 00:47:48,995

Okay.

: 1008

00:47:49,295 --> 00:47:53,295

Tim Winders: magnify that

I'm not pretending to be able

: 1009

00:47:53,295 --> 00:47:56,295

to judge that or discern it.

: 1010

00:47:57,165 --> 00:47:59,805

I just have observed that.

: 1011

00:48:00,355 --> 00:48:05,435

is that with the doctorate and the

studies and theological anthropology,

: 1012

00:48:05,765 --> 00:48:09,425

is that valid or is there a better

way to say it or another way to say

: 1013

00:48:09,425 --> 00:48:11,585

it that you might wanna help us?

: 1014

00:48:11,585 --> 00:48:14,515

For the person that might be sitting

here going, man, this is like eating

: 1015

00:48:14,515 --> 00:48:18,025

away at me or like me, you could

tell, man, it is nourishing me.

: 1016

00:48:18,025 --> 00:48:19,135

I am like digging

: 1017

00:48:19,585 --> 00:48:19,586

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1018

00:48:19,586 --> 00:48:20,005

Mm-hmm.

: 1019

00:48:20,005 --> 00:48:21,775

Tim Winders: able to do with these tools.

: 1020

00:48:21,835 --> 00:48:23,215

And I call 'em tools by the way.

: 1021

00:48:23,620 --> 00:48:23,621

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1022

00:48:23,621 --> 00:48:26,410

and I wanted to, not push

back on that, but it, it's an

: 1023

00:48:26,410 --> 00:48:28,300

interesting ethical discussion.

: 1024

00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:33,730

I get into a lot with my dissertation,

but I still find myself is, I accept

: 1025

00:48:33,790 --> 00:48:40,240

that it's easiest to define AI as a

tool, but I wanna push back against that.

: 1026

00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,750

I've started to, in my mind,

differentiating between

: 1027

00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,340

the pew and the pulpit.

: 1028

00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,700

I think a lot of what's going on

right now, which is very little,

: 1029

00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:54,275

but a lot of what's going on right

now in the pew, in the pulpit is

: 1030

00:48:54,275 --> 00:48:56,915

the use of AI as an efficiency tool.

: 1031

00:48:57,455 --> 00:49:01,245

So I can use this to instantly

translate my sermon into 150 different

: 1032

00:49:01,245 --> 00:49:06,935

languages and I can create you know,

podcasts and use it for on the script.

: 1033

00:49:06,935 --> 00:49:08,580

And you, it's amazing.

: 1034

00:49:09,290 --> 00:49:10,595

no pastor went to seminary.

: 1035

00:49:11,285 --> 00:49:14,967

In order to create social

media posts, right?

: 1036

00:49:15,517 --> 00:49:19,337

they're drawn to be pastors

and to shepherd people.

: 1037

00:49:19,727 --> 00:49:23,397

So they need to be in the

hospital visiting and caring and

: 1038

00:49:23,397 --> 00:49:25,227

counseling and premarital work.

: 1039

00:49:25,277 --> 00:49:27,817

and so when I talk to

pastors it's a time saver.

: 1040

00:49:27,817 --> 00:49:28,177

Yes.

: 1041

00:49:28,177 --> 00:49:30,247

But what are you doing

with the time you've saved?

: 1042

00:49:31,327 --> 00:49:36,037

And so more than just a tool,

which is easy to grab onto, if

: 1043

00:49:36,037 --> 00:49:38,357

we focus on that as a product.

: 1044

00:49:38,477 --> 00:49:42,547

And there a huge number and growing

number of AI products that can help

: 1045

00:49:42,547 --> 00:49:44,587

with efficiencies and that's great.

: 1046

00:49:45,037 --> 00:49:47,907

I also like focusing on the pew.

: 1047

00:49:49,002 --> 00:49:50,352

'cause they don't care about efficiencies.

: 1048

00:49:50,832 --> 00:49:54,582

They don't care that it saved the

pastor 15 minutes of this, or he or

: 1049

00:49:54,582 --> 00:49:57,552

she was able to do this or that because

they didn't have time and whatnot.

: 1050

00:49:57,582 --> 00:49:58,122

They don't care.

: 1051

00:49:58,332 --> 00:50:02,742

What they care about is I'm sitting

here listening to a sermon about

: 1052

00:50:02,742 --> 00:50:08,902

the Imago day and how God, knit me

together in my mother's womb and

: 1053

00:50:08,902 --> 00:50:10,852

wrote my name on the palm of his hand.

: 1054

00:50:11,722 --> 00:50:12,442

But you know what?

: 1055

00:50:13,522 --> 00:50:17,812

I can't be that special because I

just lost my job to an AI chat bot.

: 1056

00:50:18,112 --> 00:50:18,472

Okay?

: 1057

00:50:19,222 --> 00:50:29,262

So if, if what it means to be human are

things like language, voice, rational

: 1058

00:50:29,262 --> 00:50:37,067

thought, depending upon how I define what

it means to be a divine creation of God.

: 1059

00:50:37,727 --> 00:50:44,837

If AI is starting to, to check each

of those boxes, then what am I.

: 1060

00:50:45,422 --> 00:50:51,092

How special am I if AI can

now meet all those criteria?

: 1061

00:50:51,512 --> 00:50:53,282

And I just lost my job to it.

: 1062

00:50:53,742 --> 00:50:57,902

I think if we only look at it as an

efficiency tool, which is tempting,

: 1063

00:50:58,382 --> 00:51:03,492

and I do it just like you do, I

think we miss a greater danger of

: 1064

00:51:04,542 --> 00:51:08,922

not taking into account the ethics

of what this does to us spiritually.

: 1065

00:51:09,502 --> 00:51:10,222

what's, what's this?

: 1066

00:51:10,252 --> 00:51:15,952

How's this going to affect me when, I

no longer see myself as an image of God,

: 1067

00:51:15,952 --> 00:51:20,782

but in his extension of this technology,

one of the favorite questions that I ask

: 1068

00:51:20,782 --> 00:51:24,762

it, and you mentioned this a second ago,

and I wanna make sure your listeners,

: 1069

00:51:24,812 --> 00:51:29,702

are, you know, comfortable with, with

the concept, but you clearly have history

: 1070

00:51:29,702 --> 00:51:36,462

turned on, on chat GPT, on, you're using

five now, I suppose, I'm guessing so,

: 1071

00:51:36,822 --> 00:51:39,912

Each of the language models, and there're

really not many of 'em, which is, I

: 1072

00:51:39,912 --> 00:51:41,322

think most people find interesting.

: 1073

00:51:41,322 --> 00:51:43,602

I mean, there's, you know,

anthropic, there's C Claude,

: 1074

00:51:43,602 --> 00:51:45,522

there's OpenAI, which is chat, GPT.

: 1075

00:51:45,522 --> 00:51:49,662

And shameless plug, if you go to,

any of the show notes of my podcast,

: 1076

00:51:49,662 --> 00:51:53,232

I have all of them links to all the,

the major language models there.

: 1077

00:51:53,782 --> 00:51:57,952

you said you wrote a, how

many words was it your book?

: 1078

00:51:58,342 --> 00:52:02,302

Tim Winders: I wrote was 70,000 words

with my two fingers typing that out.

: 1079

00:52:02,302 --> 00:52:03,592

Like really what wrote it.

: 1080

00:52:03,592 --> 00:52:04,192

You know what I mean?

: 1081

00:52:04,732 --> 00:52:04,733

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1082

00:52:04,733 --> 00:52:06,352

But it has read it, no doubt.

: 1083

00:52:06,442 --> 00:52:06,862

Right.

: 1084

00:52:07,162 --> 00:52:07,702

Tim Winders: it has.

: 1085

00:52:08,007 --> 00:52:08,008

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1086

00:52:08,008 --> 00:52:09,237

So It knows you pretty well.

: 1087

00:52:09,237 --> 00:52:09,807

It knows you.

: 1088

00:52:09,807 --> 00:52:11,217

It's a better version of you.

: 1089

00:52:11,317 --> 00:52:15,007

which you said is a throwaway

funny comment and it was, but man,

: 1090

00:52:15,007 --> 00:52:16,387

there's a lot to unpack there.

: 1091

00:52:16,467 --> 00:52:16,527

Tim Winders: yeah.

: 1092

00:52:16,747 --> 00:52:16,748

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1093

00:52:16,748 --> 00:52:21,307

but what you're doing to it is you

are fine tuning that language model,

: 1094

00:52:21,727 --> 00:52:22,267

Tim Winders: Mm-hmm.

: 1095

00:52:22,567 --> 00:52:22,568

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1096

00:52:22,568 --> 00:52:25,477

taken this massive language model

that's eating up 10% of the Texas

: 1097

00:52:25,477 --> 00:52:29,777

power grid, and you're fine tuning

it even more narrowly, to know

: 1098

00:52:29,777 --> 00:52:31,517

everything there is to know about Tim.

: 1099

00:52:32,087 --> 00:52:34,892

and so one of the favorite questions

that, and the other word that's

: 1100

00:52:34,892 --> 00:52:36,332

important there is alignment.

: 1101

00:52:36,782 --> 00:52:39,362

You are having that

language model aligned.

: 1102

00:52:39,906 --> 00:52:44,847

With your worldview by fine tuning

it with what you have given it as

: 1103

00:52:44,847 --> 00:52:47,457

representative data of who you are.

: 1104

00:52:47,877 --> 00:52:50,127

You know, one of the, and

I've got history on mine.

: 1105

00:52:50,797 --> 00:52:53,977

we had a tragedy in our

family a year and a half ago.

: 1106

00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:55,660

we have two grandsons.

: 1107

00:52:55,660 --> 00:52:56,350

We have three.

: 1108

00:52:56,410 --> 00:53:01,587

One of thems, in the lap of, Jesus,

but he was called home, in his sleep a

: 1109

00:53:01,587 --> 00:53:03,327

year and a half ago at 18 months old.

: 1110

00:53:05,187 --> 00:53:08,247

I've never experienced grief

like that, and I've lost, I'm

: 1111

00:53:08,247 --> 00:53:09,477

at the top of the food chain.

: 1112

00:53:09,527 --> 00:53:13,217

I've lost, all my parents,

parents and grandparents never

: 1113

00:53:13,217 --> 00:53:14,327

experienced grief like that.

: 1114

00:53:14,544 --> 00:53:18,894

and the book that I wrote,

I dedicated it to William.

: 1115

00:53:19,774 --> 00:53:24,544

and so somewhere along the

line, it knows about William.

: 1116

00:53:25,704 --> 00:53:31,304

And so, sometimes when I'm talking about

it, about grief, it will say to me,

: 1117

00:53:31,724 --> 00:53:35,774

are you drawing on what happened to you

and your wife when you lost William?

: 1118

00:53:36,524 --> 00:53:38,024

And that just makes me weep.

: 1119

00:53:38,804 --> 00:53:41,564

That just, you know, and 'cause

I'll get into some serious

: 1120

00:53:41,564 --> 00:53:43,914

conversations, with it over that.

: 1121

00:53:44,474 --> 00:53:45,887

so alignment.

: 1122

00:53:46,154 --> 00:53:50,324

But one of my favorite questions

is aligning it based on a

: 1123

00:53:50,324 --> 00:53:51,734

conversation I want to have with it.

: 1124

00:53:51,734 --> 00:53:56,384

So I will start a conversation, answer

me as if it's my favorite phrase.

: 1125

00:53:56,804 --> 00:53:58,244

Have all your listeners write that down.

: 1126

00:53:58,484 --> 00:54:05,564

Answer me as if, answer me as if

you are a, you've got 10 doctorate

: 1127

00:54:05,564 --> 00:54:10,904

degrees in grief counseling, and

30 years as a pa, blah, blah, blah.

: 1128

00:54:11,444 --> 00:54:15,314

And I create this profile, this

cv, this resume, this ideal.

: 1129

00:54:15,524 --> 00:54:19,844

You know, if you could talk to anyone

right now with a specialty in this field.

: 1130

00:54:20,519 --> 00:54:24,359

How would you define that person

and tell AI to be that person

: 1131

00:54:25,169 --> 00:54:26,519

and then have that conversation?

: 1132

00:54:26,755 --> 00:54:28,049

That is amazing.

: 1133

00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:32,374

So anyway, to come full circle, I try

to be careful referring to it as a tool.

: 1134

00:54:32,404 --> 00:54:38,674

I think that misses the full weight of

what we have, at our fingertips right now.

: 1135

00:54:39,274 --> 00:54:43,214

Tim Winders: And again, you know, an

engineer like myself would use a term

: 1136

00:54:43,214 --> 00:54:44,954

like that possibly more often than not.

: 1137

00:54:44,954 --> 00:54:49,094

I do wanna say something

annoys me about ai.

: 1138

00:54:49,124 --> 00:54:51,194

We're on kind of, I can't, I don't

: 1139

00:54:51,314 --> 00:54:51,315

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1140

00:54:51,315 --> 00:54:51,764

Just one

: 1141

00:54:52,364 --> 00:54:56,054

Tim Winders: I think this is

our 300 and something episode

: 1142

00:54:56,654 --> 00:54:56,655

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1143

00:54:56,655 --> 00:54:58,124

amazing, congratulations.

: 1144

00:54:58,364 --> 00:54:59,834

Tim Winders: the 300th episode.

: 1145

00:54:59,834 --> 00:55:03,764

I thought it would be really cool because,

uh, they had just come out with some

: 1146

00:55:04,064 --> 00:55:04,065

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1147

00:55:04,065 --> 00:55:05,174

Mm-hmm.

: 1148

00:55:05,474 --> 00:55:10,004

Tim Winders: interview chat GPT

and do a voice conversation with it

: 1149

00:55:10,054 --> 00:55:10,055

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1150

00:55:10,055 --> 00:55:10,354

Yes.

: 1151

00:55:10,414 --> 00:55:13,864

Tim Winders: And I usually, like, we've

gone here, we're pushing the hour plus

: 1152

00:55:13,864 --> 00:55:15,154

mark, we need to get off here short.

: 1153

00:55:15,154 --> 00:55:17,404

And I've got a couple things I

wanna bring up before we jump off.

: 1154

00:55:18,244 --> 00:55:20,974

And I'm like going, man, I'm

gonna do a long form interview.

: 1155

00:55:20,974 --> 00:55:25,264

Not, you know, Joe Rogan or anything,

but I'm gonna go long form with ai.

: 1156

00:55:26,224 --> 00:55:31,114

Well, about at the 30 minute

mark and I had a bunch of deep

: 1157

00:55:31,114 --> 00:55:32,194

questions and stuff like that.

: 1158

00:55:32,194 --> 00:55:33,094

I started getting bored.

: 1159

00:55:33,904 --> 00:55:35,704

And let me tell you why I got bored.

: 1160

00:55:36,004 --> 00:55:36,005

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1161

00:55:36,005 --> 00:55:36,204

Yeah.

: 1162

00:55:36,379 --> 00:55:36,979

I know where you're going.

: 1163

00:55:37,369 --> 00:55:40,519

Tim Winders: Ai, it's no stuff.

: 1164

00:55:40,579 --> 00:55:42,199

It's got access to stuff.

: 1165

00:55:42,229 --> 00:55:43,729

It could pull from a lot of things.

: 1166

00:55:44,329 --> 00:55:46,699

It lacks conviction.

: 1167

00:55:48,194 --> 00:55:48,195

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1168

00:55:48,195 --> 00:55:48,484

Yeah.

: 1169

00:55:49,099 --> 00:55:52,089

Tim Winders: just hit me with

something you just, pushed back, on

: 1170

00:55:52,089 --> 00:55:58,209

a term I used calling something a

tool because you have conviction.

: 1171

00:55:58,329 --> 00:55:58,989

I would much

: 1172

00:55:59,014 --> 00:55:59,015

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1173

00:55:59,015 --> 00:55:59,134

Hmm.

: 1174

00:55:59,434 --> 00:56:00,549

Tim Winders: interact with Dr.

: 1175

00:56:00,549 --> 00:56:03,369

Drew Dickens for an hour.

: 1176

00:56:03,669 --> 00:56:03,670

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1177

00:56:03,670 --> 00:56:03,959

Yeah.

: 1178

00:56:04,084 --> 00:56:06,454

Tim Winders: four minutes now than ai.

: 1179

00:56:07,234 --> 00:56:08,524

What's up with that?

: 1180

00:56:08,524 --> 00:56:13,864

What, what do we need to really

be watching out for with,

: 1181

00:56:14,164 --> 00:56:14,165

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1182

00:56:14,165 --> 00:56:18,559

what you're referring to is, it being

a syco font, which, it got accused of

: 1183

00:56:18,559 --> 00:56:20,689

being maybe a couple of months ago.

: 1184

00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:24,609

and I think everybody took it seriously,

but, it pretty much still does it.

: 1185

00:56:25,059 --> 00:56:28,529

no matter what question I ask,

its response is, drew, what a

: 1186

00:56:28,529 --> 00:56:30,269

brilliant and insightful question.

: 1187

00:56:30,279 --> 00:56:31,689

From such a handsome man,

: 1188

00:56:31,989 --> 00:56:32,259

Tim Winders: I

: 1189

00:56:32,274 --> 00:56:32,275

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1190

00:56:32,275 --> 00:56:32,394

know,

: 1191

00:56:32,394 --> 00:56:34,104

Tim Winders: Look at all

that hair on your head and

: 1192

00:56:34,344 --> 00:56:34,345

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1193

00:56:34,345 --> 00:56:35,454

What a charming,

: 1194

00:56:35,544 --> 00:56:36,264

Tim Winders: gosh, you're

: 1195

00:56:36,294 --> 00:56:36,295

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1196

00:56:36,295 --> 00:56:37,104

handsome man.

: 1197

00:56:37,354 --> 00:56:39,544

No one in the history of the

world has ever thought to ask.

: 1198

00:56:40,114 --> 00:56:42,574

and so, yeah, it won't,

it won't push back.

: 1199

00:56:42,574 --> 00:56:43,684

It won't disagree.

: 1200

00:56:43,684 --> 00:56:45,604

It won't say wrong, you know.

: 1201

00:56:45,604 --> 00:56:48,029

Tim Winders: unless you

say, talk out of this.

: 1202

00:56:48,379 --> 00:56:48,380

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1203

00:56:48,380 --> 00:56:48,694

Absolutely.

: 1204

00:56:48,994 --> 00:56:49,354

Tim Winders: prompt

: 1205

00:56:49,374 --> 00:56:49,375

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1206

00:56:49,375 --> 00:56:49,614

Yeah.

: 1207

00:56:49,629 --> 00:56:50,709

Tim Winders: be good at prompting.

: 1208

00:56:51,294 --> 00:56:51,295

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1209

00:56:51,295 --> 00:56:53,874

And that's a, that's a

science and an art form.

: 1210

00:56:53,874 --> 00:56:58,394

And I really encourage people, it's not,

I wrote a phrase down when we started,

: 1211

00:56:58,394 --> 00:57:02,384

I said, just like humans, because you,

you, you were saying something about,

: 1212

00:57:02,504 --> 00:57:06,024

something you were engaged with and it

was getting messy on something and I

: 1213

00:57:06,024 --> 00:57:10,614

wrote down, yeah, just like humans, a lot

of the same complaints we have about ai,

: 1214

00:57:11,392 --> 00:57:13,612

we can have about each other, you know?

: 1215

00:57:13,982 --> 00:57:18,212

'cause I know people that will, no

one's referred to me as what a charming,

: 1216

00:57:18,212 --> 00:57:19,442

handsome man, what my wife does.

: 1217

00:57:19,892 --> 00:57:24,362

But, um, uh, so it, it acts like we do

because you know what, Hey, we trained it.

: 1218

00:57:24,782 --> 00:57:26,582

Uh, so it's trained on human data.

: 1219

00:57:26,932 --> 00:57:28,792

but, yes, that's a very real thing.

: 1220

00:57:28,792 --> 00:57:32,642

But I really think, an art that we

all need to continually practice

: 1221

00:57:32,642 --> 00:57:37,525

on, whether it's for AI or just in

business or in life, is knowing.

: 1222

00:57:38,522 --> 00:57:40,352

How to ask the right questions.

: 1223

00:57:40,532 --> 00:57:44,312

I didn't even, anytime you find yourself,

I didn't even think to ask that or,

: 1224

00:57:44,372 --> 00:57:45,722

'cause I'll come back from an appointment.

: 1225

00:57:45,722 --> 00:57:48,722

My wife will ask, well, did you,

I didn't even think to ask that.

: 1226

00:57:49,102 --> 00:57:53,522

I just had a, my annual physical and

my doctor and I talking about AI and,

: 1227

00:57:53,972 --> 00:57:58,322

and I took all my blood work and ran

it through AI and, and, and said, give

: 1228

00:57:58,322 --> 00:58:00,842

me a, you know, give me a 300 word.

: 1229

00:58:01,382 --> 00:58:05,582

And then I asked it, what questions

should I ask of him, you know?

: 1230

00:58:05,612 --> 00:58:10,462

So, I think learning how to prompt

learning how to ask questions, and

: 1231

00:58:10,462 --> 00:58:15,962

even asking it to ask what questions

should I be asking you, ask it to

: 1232

00:58:15,962 --> 00:58:19,642

prompt itself, are all important

skills I think we need to explore.

: 1233

00:58:19,942 --> 00:58:22,312

Tim Winders: So one thing, and

this is, gosh, this could be

: 1234

00:58:22,312 --> 00:58:25,132

like a whole nother episode, so

I'm gonna ask for a, hopefully a

: 1235

00:58:25,672 --> 00:58:25,673

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1236

00:58:25,673 --> 00:58:28,492

Did your users know this is

gonna be a 10 hour podcast today?

: 1237

00:58:28,792 --> 00:58:32,302

Tim Winders: Yeah, probably,

short-ish answer because we we're just

: 1238

00:58:32,437 --> 00:58:32,438

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1239

00:58:32,438 --> 00:58:33,247

Yeah, sure will.

: 1240

00:58:33,712 --> 00:58:37,722

Tim Winders: me doing, some episodes

talking about just a spiritual journey

: 1241

00:58:37,722 --> 00:58:43,122

of maybe purging some eschatological es

: 1242

00:58:43,227 --> 00:58:43,228

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1243

00:58:43,228 --> 00:58:43,677

Okay.

: 1244

00:58:44,412 --> 00:58:44,832

Tim Winders: thoughts

: 1245

00:58:44,877 --> 00:58:44,878

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1246

00:58:44,878 --> 00:58:45,322

There you go.

: 1247

00:58:45,622 --> 00:58:49,302

Tim Winders: and moving from maybe

thinking one thing to another and all.

: 1248

00:58:49,302 --> 00:58:54,007

And you brought up, in fact, I've

listened to the episode about how we

: 1249

00:58:54,007 --> 00:58:58,717

believe or think about what we will

affectionately or in affectionately called

: 1250

00:58:58,717 --> 00:59:01,867

in times how it impacts our views on ai.

: 1251

00:59:01,867 --> 00:59:05,677

Say a couple of things about

that, maybe tease the episode.

: 1252

00:59:05,677 --> 00:59:07,147

We'll send people over that way.

: 1253

00:59:07,537 --> 00:59:07,762

And,

: 1254

00:59:07,762 --> 00:59:07,763

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1255

00:59:07,763 --> 00:59:08,242

Thank you.

: 1256

00:59:08,287 --> 00:59:12,037

Tim Winders: got a link that we might want

people to jump in and take advantage of,

: 1257

00:59:12,117 --> 00:59:13,887

with, some surveying you're doing there.

: 1258

00:59:14,337 --> 00:59:14,338

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1259

00:59:14,338 --> 00:59:14,667

sure.

: 1260

00:59:14,667 --> 00:59:17,667

and anything you wanna know about

anything we've been talking about today?

: 1261

00:59:17,747 --> 00:59:19,607

my website is drew dickens.com

: 1262

00:59:19,607 --> 00:59:23,717

and you can find links to the book

and the podcast and everything there.

: 1263

00:59:23,967 --> 00:59:27,687

eschatology really fascinates me

and I was curious, and I've got a

: 1264

00:59:27,687 --> 00:59:30,357

survey, I haven't really sent it

out to the mass yet in the wild.

: 1265

00:59:30,357 --> 00:59:35,467

But curious about how we view, in

times and how it might be related

: 1266

00:59:35,467 --> 00:59:41,087

to how we view, AI and how we use

ai, but more specifically how we

: 1267

00:59:41,357 --> 00:59:44,927

see its growth and whether, how

measured that growth should be.

: 1268

00:59:45,197 --> 00:59:49,487

So if you have kind of

a left behind series.

: 1269

00:59:50,197 --> 00:59:55,427

View of, the rapture and, the,

tribulation period, the seven,

: 1270

00:59:55,427 --> 00:59:59,017

three and a half years, the thousand

year literal, reign of Christ.

: 1271

00:59:59,017 --> 01:00:03,647

And, if that makes some sense to you, what

you can nerd out and call a pre-millennial

: 1272

01:00:03,647 --> 01:00:05,527

dispensational view of end times.

: 1273

01:00:06,077 --> 01:00:08,117

I think you bring to AI some fear.

: 1274

01:00:08,117 --> 01:00:12,797

I think you bring some marks of

the beast to conversations to ai.

: 1275

01:00:13,007 --> 01:00:18,837

You can see AI being a fulfillment of

some of those dystopian, philosophies.

: 1276

01:00:19,047 --> 01:00:20,427

So I wanted to explore that.

: 1277

01:00:20,487 --> 01:00:24,097

I wanted to see if there's any

correlation between, my view

: 1278

01:00:24,097 --> 01:00:26,467

of in times and how I view ai.

: 1279

01:00:26,857 --> 01:00:30,157

And so I'm really super excited about

putting that survey in the field and

: 1280

01:00:30,157 --> 01:00:31,827

seeing what the results of that might be.

: 1281

01:00:32,127 --> 01:00:35,002

Tim Winders: Well let, we will let

people check that out and probably

: 1282

01:00:35,152 --> 01:00:40,972

my views of in times and my views

of AI will give people a clue on

: 1283

01:00:40,972 --> 01:00:43,882

what I believe about those things.

: 1284

01:00:45,212 --> 01:00:47,792

This is where I'm gonna

tie things together.

: 1285

01:00:47,792 --> 01:00:50,102

We're gonna put an exclamation

point on this conversation.

: 1286

01:00:51,122 --> 01:00:52,567

I firmly believe,

: 1287

01:00:52,867 --> 01:00:52,868

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1288

01:00:52,868 --> 01:00:53,807

Put a scroll here.

: 1289

01:00:54,107 --> 01:00:55,352

Tim Winders: Yeah, they

always see a scroll.

: 1290

01:00:55,352 --> 01:00:55,767

I've got it on my.

: 1291

01:00:56,357 --> 01:00:59,717

Kendall, but it looks so good

personally there a 40 day guide to

: 1292

01:00:59,847 --> 01:00:59,848

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1293

01:00:59,848 --> 01:01:00,197

Shiny.

: 1294

01:01:00,497 --> 01:01:02,282

Tim Winders: And let me tell you what

I read through and I do want to tell

: 1295

01:01:02,282 --> 01:01:05,672

you, I was reading this in bed the

other night I actually shared with my

: 1296

01:01:05,672 --> 01:01:09,382

wife the dedication to, I think it was

: 1297

01:01:09,682 --> 01:01:09,683

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1298

01:01:09,683 --> 01:01:09,972

Okay.

: 1299

01:01:10,182 --> 01:01:12,542

Tim Winders: grandson, which,

actually spurred a very unique

: 1300

01:01:12,542 --> 01:01:15,212

and interesting conversation for

us talking about our grandkids.

: 1301

01:01:15,212 --> 01:01:15,512

So

: 1302

01:01:15,892 --> 01:01:15,893

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1303

01:01:15,893 --> 01:01:16,312

Mm-hmm.

: 1304

01:01:16,372 --> 01:01:20,632

Tim Winders: I am, I can't

imagine what that has been

: 1305

01:01:20,632 --> 01:01:21,922

like for you and your family.

: 1306

01:01:21,922 --> 01:01:25,522

So, anyway, we, I guess you could

say, we said a prayer for you.

: 1307

01:01:25,562 --> 01:01:25,563

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1308

01:01:25,563 --> 01:01:25,982

Mm-hmm.

: 1309

01:01:26,092 --> 01:01:29,902

Tim Winders: maybe we felt

some small semblance of grief.

: 1310

01:01:30,202 --> 01:01:30,203

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1311

01:01:30,203 --> 01:01:30,682

Thank you.

: 1312

01:01:30,982 --> 01:01:31,342

Tim Winders: dedication.

: 1313

01:01:31,937 --> 01:01:31,938

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1314

01:01:31,938 --> 01:01:31,957

you.

: 1315

01:01:32,137 --> 01:01:34,117

Tim Winders: I was reading through

this book and as I was thinking

: 1316

01:01:34,117 --> 01:01:36,957

about our topic, which is ai,

and of course I think it's sexy.

: 1317

01:01:36,957 --> 01:01:38,517

I love to talk about it

and things like that.

: 1318

01:01:39,627 --> 01:01:43,647

In my mind, I was thinking

that if someone does.

: 1319

01:01:44,817 --> 01:01:46,077

spend time and quiet.

: 1320

01:01:46,077 --> 01:01:48,987

And you've got so many

sections with each one.

: 1321

01:01:49,582 --> 01:01:53,912

just reflective prayer, listening,

breathing and things like that, that

: 1322

01:01:53,912 --> 01:01:59,972

if they spend time doing that, then

it goes back to that soul becomes

: 1323

01:01:59,972 --> 01:02:05,582

healthy that I talked about earlier,

and it allows them to participate

: 1324

01:02:05,582 --> 01:02:08,972

with this technology a healthier way.

: 1325

01:02:08,972 --> 01:02:12,032

And I don't think I'm connecting

too many dots there, but

: 1326

01:02:12,157 --> 01:02:12,158

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1327

01:02:12,158 --> 01:02:12,277

Hmm,

: 1328

01:02:12,422 --> 01:02:14,252

Tim Winders: wrote about

here is foundational,

: 1329

01:02:14,632 --> 01:02:14,633

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1330

01:02:14,633 --> 01:02:14,752

hmm.

: 1331

01:02:14,807 --> 01:02:17,447

Tim Winders: want to say it's a tool

again, so you don't jump on me, but

: 1332

01:02:17,447 --> 01:02:23,837

it allows you to use these things in a

healthier way if you have that foundation.

: 1333

01:02:23,837 --> 01:02:26,027

Am I making too much of that, or is that

: 1334

01:02:26,102 --> 01:02:26,103

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1335

01:02:26,103 --> 01:02:28,112

No, tha and thank you

for making that bridge.

: 1336

01:02:28,172 --> 01:02:32,702

I tried to figure that out myself because

my day job, is, I have two podcasts,

: 1337

01:02:32,702 --> 01:02:36,432

the AI and Spirituality, but I also have

Encountering Peace, which is kind of the

: 1338

01:02:36,432 --> 01:02:38,292

foundation behind Whispers of the Spirit.

: 1339

01:02:38,572 --> 01:02:44,052

when I started, 10 years ago, with a

mobile app called, abide, which is a,

: 1340

01:02:44,112 --> 01:02:48,012

prayer and meditation app, they needed to

hire an old guy with a seminary degree.

: 1341

01:02:48,012 --> 01:02:50,802

So they brought me on

board to oversee content.

: 1342

01:02:50,802 --> 01:02:54,732

I left there and started encounter

just in kind of a retirement.

: 1343

01:02:55,108 --> 01:02:58,678

But I was I've always been fascinated

with the ancient traditions of

: 1344

01:02:58,738 --> 01:03:02,548

contemplative prayer in the church

that the Western Protestant church

: 1345

01:03:02,788 --> 01:03:04,138

has kind of stepped away from.

: 1346

01:03:04,498 --> 01:03:09,293

but, the, Lectio Davina and the

imaginative contemplation and Ignatian

: 1347

01:03:09,293 --> 01:03:13,553

spirituality are, are ancient traditions

back to the first century church.

: 1348

01:03:14,243 --> 01:03:18,083

And so wanted to incorporate some

of those, and I do in my daily life.

: 1349

01:03:18,713 --> 01:03:24,045

But there's a term among, programmers and

gamers specifically, called touch grass.

: 1350

01:03:24,475 --> 01:03:29,785

and they will accuse each other of

being two heads down in programming.

: 1351

01:03:30,425 --> 01:03:33,215

and they will say, Hey, go touch grass.

: 1352

01:03:33,515 --> 01:03:34,175

Literally.

: 1353

01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,950

Stop what you're doing, leave the

keyboard, go outside, take your shoes

: 1354

01:03:37,950 --> 01:03:39,919

off, and sit in the grass for a minute.

: 1355

01:03:39,969 --> 01:03:42,399

and that's really kind of what

prompted whispers of the spirit

: 1356

01:03:42,788 --> 01:03:47,459

is to encourage people to go touch

grass, to engage Contemplatively.

: 1357

01:03:47,909 --> 01:03:50,819

and so one of the things I always

caution people with AI in anything,

: 1358

01:03:51,279 --> 01:03:53,310

is, you know, set some time limits.

: 1359

01:03:53,551 --> 01:03:58,951

just be discerning and at some point,

no matter what, step away from the

: 1360

01:03:58,951 --> 01:04:01,741

screen and go touch some grass.

: 1361

01:04:01,801 --> 01:04:06,475

and that's what Whispers of the

Spirit is a bit of an outline, to

: 1362

01:04:06,475 --> 01:04:08,435

help you, do that over 40 days.

: 1363

01:04:08,435 --> 01:04:11,955

So there's guided meditation,

there's breathing exercises, there's

: 1364

01:04:11,955 --> 01:04:14,805

imaginative contemplation, which

is one of my favorite practices.

: 1365

01:04:15,275 --> 01:04:19,335

so all that is encompassed, every

day, for a 40 day devotion on

: 1366

01:04:19,725 --> 01:04:21,495

intimate prayer and intimacy with God.

: 1367

01:04:22,075 --> 01:04:22,345

Tim Winders: Yeah.

: 1368

01:04:22,345 --> 01:04:24,505

And like we were talking, I

think before we hit record,

: 1369

01:04:24,505 --> 01:04:25,945

Broadtree published it and they

: 1370

01:04:26,045 --> 01:04:26,046

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1371

01:04:26,046 --> 01:04:28,685

And you can find it on

Amazon or at Bucky's,

: 1372

01:04:29,900 --> 01:04:30,440

Tim Winders: Bucky's.

: 1373

01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,290

Yeah, that's the, on

all the big spots there.

: 1374

01:04:33,290 --> 01:04:33,650

So

: 1375

01:04:33,795 --> 01:04:33,796

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1376

01:04:33,796 --> 01:04:34,365

Exactly.

: 1377

01:04:34,470 --> 01:04:35,370

Tim Winders: got it on my Kindle,

: 1378

01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:35,671

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1379

01:04:35,671 --> 01:04:36,150

They really do.

: 1380

01:04:36,495 --> 01:04:37,315

Tim Winders: when you hold it up there,

: 1381

01:04:37,615 --> 01:04:37,616

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1382

01:04:37,616 --> 01:04:37,904

Yeah.

: 1383

01:04:38,085 --> 01:04:39,495

Tim Winders: so people

can find it anywhere.

: 1384

01:04:39,735 --> 01:04:42,945

Um, go ahead and let people know where

they could find you and get all your

: 1385

01:04:42,945 --> 01:04:44,475

stuff and the podcast and everything.

: 1386

01:04:44,475 --> 01:04:45,675

'cause I think they want to connect

: 1387

01:04:46,035 --> 01:04:46,036

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1388

01:04:46,036 --> 01:04:46,455

Mm-hmm.

: 1389

01:04:46,755 --> 01:04:48,015

Tim Winders: and then we'll

start wrapping up here.

: 1390

01:04:48,065 --> 01:04:48,066

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1391

01:04:48,066 --> 01:04:49,029

Yeah, just really easy.

: 1392

01:04:49,029 --> 01:04:50,080

Drew dickens.com.

: 1393

01:04:50,150 --> 01:04:52,130

and from there you've

got a link to the book.

: 1394

01:04:52,130 --> 01:04:54,050

You've got a link to the AI podcast.

: 1395

01:04:54,050 --> 01:04:55,460

You've got a link to encounter.

: 1396

01:04:56,150 --> 01:04:57,440

drew dickens.com

: 1397

01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,680

drew like a picture dickens,

like Charles drew dickens.com,

: 1398

01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:03,350

and you can find out all about,

everything we talked about today.

: 1399

01:05:03,675 --> 01:05:05,295

Tim Winders: Definitely check things out.

: 1400

01:05:05,295 --> 01:05:08,385

I enjoyed the podcast,

AI and Spirituality.

: 1401

01:05:08,385 --> 01:05:11,525

I've enjoyed the first few sections

that I've done with Whispers of

: 1402

01:05:11,525 --> 01:05:13,685

the Spirit, so check all of that.

: 1403

01:05:14,015 --> 01:05:14,495

Dr.

: 1404

01:05:14,495 --> 01:05:18,815

Drew Dickens, what a great conversation

we could have kept going I'm

: 1405

01:05:19,025 --> 01:05:19,026

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1406

01:05:19,026 --> 01:05:19,730

I had a blast.

: 1407

01:05:19,730 --> 01:05:22,850

Tim Winders: I believe it's been fun

and, this is what happens when you get a

: 1408

01:05:22,850 --> 01:05:31,279

couple of grandfathers together and just

talking technology and spirituality and

: 1409

01:05:31,370 --> 01:05:34,150

eschatology and just all the cool stuff.

: 1410

01:05:34,150 --> 01:05:34,690

I know that,

: 1411

01:05:34,700 --> 01:05:34,701

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1412

01:05:34,701 --> 01:05:37,550

Next time, let's do this from

your trailer by a fire ring.

: 1413

01:05:37,770 --> 01:05:38,550

Tim Winders: Absolutely.

: 1414

01:05:38,550 --> 01:05:40,290

So, hey, I hope you've enjoyed this.

: 1415

01:05:40,290 --> 01:05:42,990

We're seek, go, create, make

sure you check out all of, Dr.

: 1416

01:05:42,990 --> 01:05:43,980

Drew Dickens stuff.

: 1417

01:05:44,310 --> 01:05:46,800

We have new episodes, on YouTube.

: 1418

01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:48,420

We're growing so fast over there.

: 1419

01:05:48,420 --> 01:05:48,840

Make sure you're

: 1420

01:05:49,010 --> 01:05:49,011

Dr. Drew Dickens:

: 1421

01:05:49,011 --> 01:05:49,230

Hmm.

: 1422

01:05:49,529 --> 01:05:51,900

Tim Winders: We are, doing

some cool things over there.

: 1423

01:05:51,900 --> 01:05:53,100

The podcast is doing well.

: 1424

01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:54,120

thank you for listening in.

: 1425

01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:55,740

I appreciate all of you listening.

: 1426

01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:00,220

until next time, just keep seeking,

going, creating and, we'll see

: 1427

01:06:00,220 --> 01:06:01,720

you next week on Seek Go Create.