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Restoring Shalom: Markus Watson's Insights on Leadership, Peace, and Hope in the World

Does the struggle of finding purpose and redefining success in ministry sound familiar? Have you been told that the key to achieving it is simply pushing through the pain and pretending everything is fine? But deep down, you know that approach only leads to more frustration and a sense of disconnection. It's time to acknowledge the pain and embrace difficult experiences as opportunities for growth and transformation.

"We need to get clear about what really matters, about things like not needing to meet other people's approval." - Markus Watson

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

Markus Watson, a faithful leader who is carving a new path of success in ministry, wears many hats. His journey from a trialsome tenure at a previous church to becoming a celebrated minister and a podcaster, is a remarkable testament to resilience. Markus has cultivated his brand of leadership with deep roots in service, helping churches and pastors navigate through daunting times. But what brings Markus' journey to life is his openness to redefining himself in line with the callings of his faith. Residing in San Diego with his family, he consistently embodies a philosophy of embracing, supporting, and encouraging others through adversity.

Reasons to Listen:

  • Gain insights into the healing process from the trauma of betrayal and overcoming struggles within Christian communities.
  • Discover how to re-define your purpose and role as a pastor in today's polarized societal and political climate.
  • Immerse in Marcus Watson's life-changing journey along the Camino de Santiago and the profound lessons it bestows.
  • Comprehend the crucial roles of community, solitude, and nature for deeper spiritual reflection and connection.
  • Learn how to perceive difficult times as a springboard for finding purpose and re-calibrating success in ministry.

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

Resources for Leaders from Tim Winders & SGC:

🔹 Unlock Your Potential Today!

  • 🎙 Coaching with Tim: Elevate your leadership and align your work with your faith. Learn More
  • 📚 "Coach: A Story of Success Redefined": A transformative read that will challenge your views on success. Grab Your Copy
  • 📝 Faith Driven Leader Quiz: Discover how well you're aligning faith and work with our quick quiz. Take the Quiz

Key Lessons:

1. Understanding the concept of shalom: Shalom refers to a sense of well-being and wholeness that encompasses our relationships with God, others, the created order, and ourselves. The brokenness of shalom due to sin and the importance of pursuing its restoration are explored.

2. The impact of trauma in Christian environments: The speaker shares their personal experience of trauma within Christian settings, highlighting the pain caused when the church, which should be a source of love and support, instead becomes an experience of judgment, rejection, or betrayal.

3. Transition from the first to the second half of life: The episode explores the shift in focus from self-building to pouring out and helping others in the second half of life. This transition is a crucial aspect of spiritual growth and maturity.

4. The power of community and shared experiences: The speaker recounts their transformative experience walking the Camino with a group, emphasizing the deep sense of community and bonding that can be formed through shared spiritual and personal experiences.

5. Creating space for spiritual growth: The importance of intentionally creating space in our lives for spiritual practices and activities that bring joy and renewal is highlighted. The concept of a "rule of life" is introduced as a framework for incorporating these practices into our daily routines.

6. Embracing suffering and finding peace: The episode delves into the paradoxical nature of suffering and its role in deepening our connection with Jesus. It challenges the shallow concept of prosperity gospel and encourages a deeper understanding of surrender and identification with Christ.

7. Knowing oneself and finding peace: The importance of knowing oneself and finding rest in God's unconditional love is emphasized. Understanding that our worth and relationship with God are not dependent on our roles or achievements is a key takeaway.

8. Supporting pastors and churches: The guest, Markus Watson, has a passion for supporting pastors and churches, particularly smaller and mid-sized ones facing challenges in a changing and polarized world. The importance of adapting to navigate the post-COVID landscape and meeting the needs of congregants is acknowledged.

Overall, this episode encourages listeners to pursue deep spiritual growth, restoration of shalom, compassion for others, and a deeper understanding of their identity in Christ.

Episode Highlights:

00:00:00 - The Betrayal of Church and Community,

Marcus discusses how the church and Christian community can be perceived as a betrayal when they fail or turn against individuals, as they are expected to be a community of love.

00:02:09 - Introduction to Marcus Watson,

Tim introduces Marcus Watson as a Presbyterian pastor and author who is redefining success in ministry. Marcus shares his passion for helping pastors and churches navigate the challenges of leading in a post-COVID and politically polarized world.

00:06:32 - Finding Peace and Embracing Identity,

Tim observes a newfound peace and sense of identity in Marcus. Marcus reflects on his journey of healing after a rough experience at a former church and how embracing his calling has brought him a sense of fulfillment and purpose.

00:09:47 - The Transformative Camino Pilgrimage,

Marcus shares his experience of embarking on the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage and how it brought about a transformative journey of self-discovery and spiritual growth. He highlights the significance of the Camino in finding solace and deepening his connection with God.

00:13:58 - Starting the Journey Alone,

Markus Watson shares his experience of starting his journey alone on the Camino de Santiago. He expresses the need to walk and be alone, burning off his pent-up energy. After walking alone for two days, he realizes he doesn't want to walk alone anymore and decides to walk with someone the following day.

00:15:05 - Finding Companionship,

Markus reflects on the importance of walking with others on the Camino de Santiago. He shares how walking with his companions was helpful and enjoyable, providing support and companionship during the journey.

00:15:31 - A Spiritual Route,

Markus describes the spiritual route on the Camino de Santiago, which leads to a town with a thousand-year-old monastery. He participates in a service of blessing for pilgrims led by the sisters and finds the experience beautiful and spiritually significant.

00:16:35 - Healing and Letting Go,

Markus opens up about his history with a church and the hurt and anger he carried. While sitting in the cathedral, he prays for forgiveness and healing for himself and the church. This experience brings about a significant change in his inner energy and perspective, allowing him to let go of some of his anger and brokenness.

00:19:10 - The Transformative Power of Suffering,

Markus and the host discuss the role of suffering in shaping and transforming our lives. They explore the paradoxical nature of suffering and how it can lead to a deeper understanding of what truly matters in life.

00:27:38 - God's Role in Difficult Times,

The guest reflects on whether God wanted him to be out of his previous position and discusses the concept of suffering in relation to God's role. He believes that God did not cause the downturn but used it for his transformation, and acknowledges the presence of suffering in a broken world.

00:29:26 - Facing Future Suffering,

The guest expresses his fear of future suffering and loss but finds solace in the belief that God will be with him through it all. He acknowledges that suffering can unite us with Jesus and deepen our connection to God.

00:31:41 - Balancing Optimism and Realism,

The host shares a story about his son's stolen motorcycle and reflects on the balance between optimism, realism, and even pessimism. He emphasizes the importance of knowing when to turn these attitudes on and off in different situations.

00:34:00 - Trauma in Christian Environments,

The host discusses his own experience of trauma in a Christian environment and raises the question of how it compares to other forms of suffering. The guest suggests that the betrayal and judgment from a community that is supposed to be loving and supportive can make the pain even greater.

00:39:32 - Jesus' Suffering and Resistance,

The conversation shifts to Jesus' experience of suffering and resistance from religious leaders. The guest notes that Jesus primarily focuses his resistance on religious leaders and highlights the importance of not becoming like them.

00:56:24 - Leading with Shalom,

Marcus discusses the importance of leading with confidence and being willing to try new things, even without expert knowledge. He emphasizes the need for inner Shalom and self-differentiation, allowing individuals to be themselves while still working towards a common goal.

00:57:25 - Restoring Shalom,

Marcus explains that leaders, even in business, have a role in restoring Shalom in the world. This involves providing goods and services that bring joy, hope, peace, and provision to employees and customers. The course aims to help leaders think about how to respond to challenges and fulfill their role in restoring Shalom.

00:59:16 - Creating Space for Shalom,

Marcus suggests creating space in our lives to experience Shalom. He mentions the Camino de Santiago as an example of a journey that provides space for reflection and a break from decision-making. He encourages activities like hiking, scripture, prayer, silence, and developing a rule of life to create space for Shalom.

01:01:26 - Gaining Perspective,

Marcus highlights the importance of creating space to gain perspective on our actions and their impact on bringing Shalom to our lives, families, employees, and those we serve. By creating space, we can evaluate our choices and make adjustments to align with the restoration of Shalom.

01:03:38 - The Journey of Seeking,

Marcus chooses "Seek" as his word because he believes that there is always more to learn and discover in our relationships.

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Transcript
Markus Watson:

it's because we associate the church, let's say,

Markus Watson:

or Christian community with a God who we believe to be good, right?

Markus Watson:

And when this church or Christian community fails us or turns on

Markus Watson:

us, it's like a betrayal, right?

Markus Watson:

It's not just a hurt, it's a betrayal, because they are supposed

Markus Watson:

to be a community of love, right?

Tim Winders:

Hello, everyone.

Tim Winders:

Welcome back to Seek, Go Create.

Tim Winders:

This is the podcast that challenges the status quo and explores

Tim Winders:

unconventional paths to success in leadership, business, and ministry.

Tim Winders:

I'm your host, Tim Winders.

Tim Winders:

I'm an executive coach.

Tim Winders:

I'm the guy that gets to ask the questions.

Tim Winders:

My favorite seat to be in.

Tim Winders:

And I'm so excited about my guest today.

Tim Winders:

I've got, I consider him a friend.

Tim Winders:

We're, we've been hanging around each other, I guess, for the last

Tim Winders:

three, maybe almost four years.

Tim Winders:

So let me just go ahead and do a quick intro and we're going to go

Tim Winders:

ahead and dive in Markus Watson.

Tim Winders:

He's a Presbyterian pastor called San Diego home, and he resides there

Tim Winders:

with his wife and his Children.

Tim Winders:

And he just has a lot of things going on that.

Tim Winders:

Intrigued me to reach out to him.

Tim Winders:

So he's an author, has a podcast.

Tim Winders:

I'm sure we'll get to all that, but let me just tell you the bottom line.

Tim Winders:

He's redefining success in ministry, and we're excited to hear his

Tim Winders:

inspiring journey and insights.

Tim Winders:

Markus, welcome to Seek, Go Create.

Markus Watson:

Tim, thank you.

Markus Watson:

I'm so excited to be here.

Markus Watson:

yeah, it's fine.

Markus Watson:

We're just saying before we start recording, I'm excited to get to

Markus Watson:

hang out with you for an hour.

Markus Watson:

So this is great.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, I know.

Tim Winders:

And I've actually, I'm a little bit late starting this morning.

Tim Winders:

I've still, I've got my second cup of coffee with me.

Tim Winders:

So it's going to be like, we're just sitting having a cup of

Tim Winders:

coffee talking and all that.

Tim Winders:

But I don't want to get totally off track from my schedule.

Tim Winders:

I want to ask my first question, even though I know this answer, but we're

Tim Winders:

going to pretend like we just met.

Tim Winders:

I bump into Markus, we're on a plane, I'm in church or something like that,

Tim Winders:

and I say, Markus, what do you do?

Tim Winders:

When someone asks you that, what do you tell them?

Markus Watson:

in terms of a job, I would say that I'm a pastor, but so I'm a pastor

Markus Watson:

and a podcaster is what I would say.

Markus Watson:

I'm, as you mentioned, I'm a pastor at Mount Soledad Presbyterian

Markus Watson:

church here in San Diego right now.

Markus Watson:

I'm, I do spiritual life and leadership podcast, which is part of

Markus Watson:

the church leadership institute at fuller seminary, but that's just like

Markus Watson:

the, that's just the stuff, right?

Markus Watson:

But really deep down when I think about what I do, I love

Markus Watson:

to help pastors and churches.

Markus Watson:

especially if they're having a hard time, right?

Markus Watson:

That's, and that's a lot of churches, right?

Markus Watson:

so like when I think in terms of my podcast about my audience, I think

Markus Watson:

about pastors of smaller and mid sized churches who are like, this world is

Markus Watson:

not the world that I was prepared for.

Markus Watson:

seminary didn't teach me how to lead in a post COVID world, in an

Markus Watson:

extremely politically polarized world.

Markus Watson:

I, and a world where people can think of a thousand other

Markus Watson:

things to do on a Sunday morning.

Markus Watson:

and they're not, they're just not looking for church.

Markus Watson:

And so, you know, whereas you used to be able to just Start a church

Markus Watson:

and people would eventually come, if you build it, they will come.

Markus Watson:

That's that is not the world we live in anymore.

Markus Watson:

So anyway, so even in my work is I'm an interim pastor right now,

Markus Watson:

even in that work, I think in terms of I just want to help churches

Markus Watson:

and pastors, become who they were.

Markus Watson:

meant to be.

Markus Watson:

I think that, that God has every church exactly where God wants that church to be.

Markus Watson:

And, and then it's up to us to figure out why we are where we are.

Markus Watson:

Like, what exactly is our calling in this place at this time?

Markus Watson:

And, so anyway, so there's, that's what I think of when I think of what I do.

Markus Watson:

That's a long answer.

Markus Watson:

I don't necessarily tell somebody that at the airport, but, that's what I

Markus Watson:

have in mind when I'm saying what I do.

Tim Winders:

So I've come to believe, this is me kind of opening up a little

Tim Winders:

bit, it's really a bad question,

Tim Winders:

don't you think?

Tim Winders:

Because most of us do respond in what I would call the superficial stuff.

Tim Winders:

Titles, whatever.

Tim Winders:

And I went through this evolution after we had gone through some challenges

Tim Winders:

where I was trying to dig deeper on more like who I am versus what I do, but it

Tim Winders:

still came back to, I'm a husband, I'm a father now, I'm a grandfather that

Tim Winders:

sounded better, even put that on all my socials at one point, but I've actually

Tim Winders:

considered I could run this by you.

Tim Winders:

Cause you're a buddy.

Tim Winders:

I've actually considered when people ask a question going like hyper Existential

Tim Winders:

and saying something like I exist as a child of the most high God to perform

Tim Winders:

and achieve the assignment that he has for my life on a minute by minute

Tim Winders:

basis.

Tim Winders:

What do you think about that is that

Markus Watson:

that's great.

Markus Watson:

It would scare people.

Markus Watson:

I think a

Tim Winders:

you got scared, even you got scared just

Markus Watson:

I just want you to say I'm fine.

Markus Watson:

everything's good.

Markus Watson:

I'm going to work tomorrow.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Yeah,

Markus Watson:

That's great though.

Tim Winders:

I do think it's part of what we're doing here, which is redefining

Tim Winders:

success and what does it really mean and who are we and what's our purpose.

Tim Winders:

And that's what you're doing over there at spiritual life and leadership.

Tim Winders:

and then you've got this great new course we're going to talk

Tim Winders:

about shortly on Shalom, but.

Tim Winders:

I've got to tell you, Markus, this is the reason why I reached out to you.

Tim Winders:

And I thought you'd been with us before, but let's go ahead and dive

Tim Winders:

into the deep end right out of the gate.

Tim Winders:

You and I have been around each other a long time, and we've seen each other

Tim Winders:

in some, business y settings with

Tim Winders:

masterminds for podcasters and Christians and things like that.

Tim Winders:

And sometimes we'll have our serious face on, sometimes

Tim Winders:

we'll be laughing and all that.

Tim Winders:

I know that, That all of us as leaders have been through some junk and I

Tim Winders:

know you have, I know your story.

Tim Winders:

We may get into a little bit of that

Tim Winders:

shortly, but over the last, say 30 to 60 days, I've seen you

Tim Winders:

do some videos on social media.

Tim Winders:

I've seen this course pop in on Shalom and I could just see a piece in your eyes and

Tim Winders:

your demeanor that I haven't seen before.

Tim Winders:

And I said, I want to talk to Markus, so why not do it as we're

Tim Winders:

recording and let everybody listen in.

Tim Winders:

having said that, what's going on?

Tim Winders:

Is that a good observation, Did I just catch you on a good day where you got

Tim Winders:

some good sunshine on you or something?

Tim Winders:

what's happening.

Tim Winders:

you got a great look to you.

Tim Winders:

You got a little scruffy

Tim Winders:

going

Tim Winders:

And

Markus Watson:

that's super encouraging.

Markus Watson:

I'm really glad to hear you say that.

Markus Watson:

Yeah, it's interesting.

Markus Watson:

So it has been, so I won't go into all the details, but you can ask

Markus Watson:

more and then we can, if you want to.

Markus Watson:

But I had a really rough go at a former church.

Markus Watson:

what is it?

Markus Watson:

It was 20, 2016.

Markus Watson:

I got voted out of that church after a year of crazy stuff.

Markus Watson:

And, and it was really hard, really painful.

Markus Watson:

Thought I'd never be a pastor again.

Markus Watson:

worked for a nonprofit for about two years.

Markus Watson:

And then eventually started working for, a very small church in rural Southern

Markus Watson:

California, between Mexico and the Salton Sea and between the mountains in Arizona.

Markus Watson:

So this little part of California that almost nobody knows exists.

Markus Watson:

and, and it was so good, right?

Markus Watson:

And I began to experience some healing there.

Markus Watson:

And after about three or four years there, I moved to a church closer to home.

Markus Watson:

I felt almost, I almost needed a place to be far away, from home.

Markus Watson:

I needed a church that I could serve where we had really clear boundaries.

Markus Watson:

We had mountains between us.

Markus Watson:

And, and so now I'm closer in another church and I feel it's just been this

Markus Watson:

ongoing journey of healing, from a kind of trauma that I experienced.

Markus Watson:

The podcast, which I started now over five years ago, just over five years

Markus Watson:

ago, which is amazing, has been a part of that healing process and then

Markus Watson:

starting to do some online courses.

Markus Watson:

And so it just feels, it does feel like.

Markus Watson:

Just a little more, I'm embracing who I'm being called to be, as a leader

Markus Watson:

of leaders, to some extent, right?

Markus Watson:

a leader, someone who can, who has learned from some really hard things

Markus Watson:

and, and has learned from some really good people, and just to share that

Markus Watson:

with whoever it would be helpful for.

Markus Watson:

And so in terms of what you're maybe seeing on social media, I

Markus Watson:

think it is a little bit of an embrace of, I can be that, right?

Markus Watson:

I can be that.

Markus Watson:

It's not it, right?

Markus Watson:

And it's not even I can do that.

Markus Watson:

It's I can be that.

Markus Watson:

In a lot of ways, it's a, it's about identity.

Markus Watson:

can I see myself being that person?

Markus Watson:

That happened actually with me even becoming a pastor.

Markus Watson:

My dad was a pastor and that was always his thing.

Markus Watson:

And I resisted that for the long time, longest time because I

Markus Watson:

couldn't see myself being a pastor.

Markus Watson:

And then finally I had a moment where Anyway, I was

Markus Watson:

like, okay, Lord, I'm all in.

Markus Watson:

And so I think it's part of that journey.

Markus Watson:

It's the journey of me embracing more and more who God is calling me to be.

Tim Winders:

that original

Tim Winders:

question I asked,

Tim Winders:

it's what do you do?

Tim Winders:

It seems to me like you're, and we're all going through this, I

Tim Winders:

think, as we go through our lives.

Tim Winders:

And I, at times I'm wondering what it looks like.

Tim Winders:

I think you ever seen these circles, where it keeps circling and moving more

Tim Winders:

towards the middle, the bullseye, it seems like our life journey line has been

Tim Winders:

like that, maybe it's a rollercoaster.

Tim Winders:

Maybe it's,

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

and sometimes it's like this too, right?

Markus Watson:

Eventually you get in.

Markus Watson:

Oh, there we are.

Markus Watson:

All right.

Tim Winders:

But there's another thing you did.

Tim Winders:

I want to go ahead and ask this now, and then we may back up and get just

Tim Winders:

a brief story to get some context.

Tim Winders:

But you also did something that I've seen some people do, and I've seen kind

Tim Winders:

of some changes every time I've seen people do this 500 mile hike over in

Tim Winders:

Spain where they find themselves or whatever.

Tim Winders:

I mean, there's, and the, and literally it's called a.

Tim Winders:

Pilgrimage, and I was interacting with you before, and I saw you do it, and I watched

Tim Winders:

a little bit while you were doing it.

Tim Winders:

did that have anything to do, or was that just a hike

Markus Watson:

oh no.

Markus Watson:

It was a transformative experience for me.

Markus Watson:

100%.

Markus Watson:

And I can, there's a whole story there, if you want me to tell it.

Tim Winders:

it, I'd love to, and the name of it, it's like Carmen de San Diego, or

Markus Watson:

it's the Camino de Santiago, right?

Markus Watson:

Camino means the way of Santiago or Saint James, right?

Markus Watson:

Santiago is Saint James.

Markus Watson:

And it's a pilgrimage and, the most common route, starts in southern France

Markus Watson:

and goes along the north of Spain and ends in the Town of Santiago at the

Markus Watson:

Cathedral of, Santiago de Compostela.

Markus Watson:

It's called, I don't know what Compostela means, but that's what it's called.

Markus Watson:

we did the, so we meaning I and a group of other, ministry leaders did a group

Markus Watson:

of, that did, the Portuguese route.

Markus Watson:

So we started in the South.

Markus Watson:

We didn't do all 500 miles.

Markus Watson:

We did about a hundred miles.

Markus Watson:

so it was about eight days of hiking.

Markus Watson:

I would love to do, and I will one day do the full thing.

Markus Watson:

and so I can't wait to do that.

Markus Watson:

I first discovered the existence of this Camino, this pilgrimage, right after

Markus Watson:

I got voted out of my church, a friend of mine, Learned about it somehow.

Markus Watson:

And there's a movie called The Way with, Martin Sheen, directed by Emilio Estevez

Markus Watson:

and, just a really great movie about the Camino and about the kind of just

Markus Watson:

these characters on their path and the kind of transformation they experience.

Markus Watson:

Anyway, as soon as I learned about it and having just been through a really

Markus Watson:

traumatic experience at a church, I was like, I want to do that, just the

Markus Watson:

idea of getting away and, and just walking and being with Jesus, for

Markus Watson:

30 days or it turned out to be eight days, but it was wonderful, right?

Markus Watson:

the one, eight of the best days of my life and, but I just, I wanted to do it so bad.

Markus Watson:

and, had never quite gotten around to it, but I knew eventually I would literally

Markus Watson:

the first Sunday that I was, serving at Mount Solon at Presbyterian church.

Markus Watson:

where I'm at now.

Markus Watson:

so about a year and a half ago, the worship leader there who I actually

Markus Watson:

already had known, he said, Hey, I'm doing this Camino, the Camino with

Markus Watson:

a group of other guys, in the fall.

Markus Watson:

Do you want to do it with us?

Markus Watson:

I was like, yes, I do sign me up right now.

Markus Watson:

And so it was a really great experience.

Markus Watson:

and so here's the story of transformation that I experienced on that path.

Markus Watson:

first of all, being with these.

Markus Watson:

These people, only a couple of which I already knew.

Markus Watson:

it was just like one of these, community building experiences where

Markus Watson:

we're at the end of the day, we're all walking sometimes together,

Markus Watson:

sometimes, separately alone, but.

Markus Watson:

At the end of the night, we come together and we just share where

Markus Watson:

we at spiritually personally.

Markus Watson:

What are we processing today?

Markus Watson:

What was our experience like today?

Markus Watson:

And it just created this bond, and just on Tuesday night I went up to Orange

Markus Watson:

County and met up with Five of them four if there were five of us together and

Markus Watson:

it was just right so these new friends that was so good But then here's like in

Markus Watson:

terms of the trauma and healing from that On the very first morning of walking,

Markus Watson:

we started in the town of Ponte de Lima, in Portugal and, we stopped by the

Markus Watson:

cathedral, every town has a cathedral.

Markus Watson:

And so we went over to the cathedral and, I sat down in there and

Markus Watson:

it was beautiful and I was just and I started talking to God.

Markus Watson:

I was like, okay, Lord, here it is.

Markus Watson:

I'm doing it.

Markus Watson:

This is what I've been wanting to do now for, five years or six years or

Markus Watson:

whatever it was ever since that church.

Markus Watson:

And then I cussed that church bleeped me, and, obviously silently, nobody heard

Markus Watson:

me say that, but that's what, those are the words that, that I was thinking.

Markus Watson:

And, and I just felt so angry and all this.

Markus Watson:

energy inside of me, this angry energy, this frustrated energy,

Markus Watson:

this, outrage sort of energy.

Markus Watson:

And I was just like, I got to go, I got to get up.

Markus Watson:

And so a couple of the guys were hanging out there, grabbing, having, sitting in a

Markus Watson:

cafe, having some coffee to start the day.

Markus Watson:

And I was just like, all right guys, I'm off, Buen Camino, the Buen Camino.

Markus Watson:

And, and I just started walking and I was just like, Hoof in it,

Markus Watson:

and and I, it's like I needed that.

Markus Watson:

I just needed to walk.

Markus Watson:

I needed to be alone.

Markus Watson:

It's like I was burning off all this energy that I was feeling.

Markus Watson:

and the second day, so I walked alone the first day.

Markus Watson:

I caught up with a couple of guys for the last hour and that was

Markus Watson:

great, but but alone most of the day.

Markus Watson:

And then the second day I walked alone again and, but about halfway through that

Markus Watson:

second day, it's like my energy changed.

Markus Watson:

It's like all of a sudden, and I wasn't like hoofing it anymore.

Markus Watson:

I was just walking just a steady pace.

Markus Watson:

And, in the evening, as we were debriefing together the day, I shared

Markus Watson:

with them what I just shared with you and a little bit about my history with,

Markus Watson:

my experience at that church and stuff and I said, I walked alone these first

Markus Watson:

two, two days, but I realized today I don't want to walk alone anymore.

Markus Watson:

I want to, so I want to walk with someone tomorrow.

Markus Watson:

afterwards, one of the other guys is I'll walk with you tomorrow,

Markus Watson:

Markus, and so it was good.

Markus Watson:

I maybe had an hour or two where I would walk alone, throughout the rest

Markus Watson:

of the time, but most of the time I was just walking with these other guys

Markus Watson:

and it was just so good and helpful.

Markus Watson:

But then near the end of the week, second to last night, I think it was, we're

Markus Watson:

in the town of, Armentera, I think.

Markus Watson:

So we did what was called the spiritual route.

Markus Watson:

you, there's kind of two options at one point the spiritual

Markus Watson:

route breaks, breaks off.

Markus Watson:

It goes up into some mountains and then down back to the coast, but you

Markus Watson:

stop in a town with a monastery there.

Markus Watson:

And We got to this town with a monastery.

Markus Watson:

There's a service of blessing for pilgrims led by these sisters.

Markus Watson:

and so it was really beautiful.

Markus Watson:

We did that in a small chapel, but then there's also a larger

Markus Watson:

cathedral as part of the monastery.

Markus Watson:

This is like a thousand year old monastery, 1200, something like that.

Markus Watson:

Really old, which is super cool, right?

Markus Watson:

You don't get that in the U S here, you don't find old things.

Markus Watson:

So just amazing, all that history.

Markus Watson:

So we go into the cathedral again and I'm sitting in there.

Markus Watson:

And, It was, I said to God, I said, okay, Lord, boy, this feels a little bit like

Markus Watson:

that first morning, and here I am again sitting in a cathedral, but I don't feel

Markus Watson:

the same way I felt that same morning.

Markus Watson:

And, and I said, yeah, and so I just start, I was talking to God and I,

Markus Watson:

And it just came out of me, Lord, just be with that effing precious church.

Markus Watson:

And, and so I was able to write a kind of forgiveness, a kind of healing for sure.

Markus Watson:

a kind of letting go surrendering, and, yeah, and it was just what I needed.

Markus Watson:

it's ever since that experience with that church, it's been like

Markus Watson:

an onion, you peel away layers of.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

anger, layers of anxiety, layers of frustration and hurt.

Markus Watson:

and this was a big layer.

Markus Watson:

So this was like, I'm sure there'll be more layers, over the years, but it was

Markus Watson:

a big layer and it just changed, my, my own inner energy, so to speak, when I

Markus Watson:

think about what happened there, I don't

Markus Watson:

think of it quite with the same intensity and.

Markus Watson:

anger that I once did.

Markus Watson:

I still don't like it, but but I don't, but I don't, it doesn't feel, I don't

Markus Watson:

feel as broken because of it anymore.

Markus Watson:

I don't know if that makes sense.

Tim Winders:

yeah, it does, and it I don't know if this is a theory, or a theology,

Tim Winders:

or just a thought, you can respond in whatever way you want, but I've got this.

Tim Winders:

Thought from studying scriptures, from stuff I've been through in life too.

Tim Winders:

And truthfully, we could probably interview, I think just about anyone,

Tim Winders:

Markus, you'd interview people.

Tim Winders:

I interview people and they've got a journey and they've got

Tim Winders:

a situation that occurred or an event or trauma or something.

Tim Winders:

And I hate it.

Tim Winders:

And some we rank, some, we say that this one is worse than the other one, but I

Tim Winders:

think everybody's got their own journey.

Tim Winders:

I think it's

Tim Winders:

there.

Tim Winders:

Journey, right?

Tim Winders:

And and I think what it does is it actually can and does damage

Tim Winders:

our souls, takes a chunk out of it or leaves a big scar, sometimes

Tim Winders:

a dang open wound that we have.

Tim Winders:

And so I think part of our life is trying to protect our soul, but I think we

Tim Winders:

still have to get out there and do stuff.

Tim Winders:

But then I think the rest of our life is restoring our soul

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

and maybe even preparing it for What we'll call eternity, which to

Tim Winders:

me, I've come to believe that is, we're really preparing our hearts that our

Tim Winders:

time here is getting our heart ready for.

Tim Winders:

I don't think it'll be static when we leave here, but I think it is a

Tim Winders:

workout for the heart for eternity.

Tim Winders:

So you, I know you're deeper theologically than I am.

Tim Winders:

What are your thoughts on that?

Tim Winders:

Especially with the story you just told?

Markus Watson:

I think, if I'm hearing you correctly, I think I agree in that

Markus Watson:

it's it's almost like we need suffering in our lives and it's so paradoxical, right?

Markus Watson:

Because Yeah.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

we weren't created for suffering.

Markus Watson:

It's like God didn't create a world in which he's I want people to suffer.

Markus Watson:

That's the exact opposite.

Markus Watson:

And I think it's the opposite of what is in store for us.

Markus Watson:

But there's something about suffering.

Markus Watson:

And I think the cross reflects this.

Markus Watson:

There's something about suffering.

Markus Watson:

that is transformative, right?

Markus Watson:

And that shapes us into who we were actually created to be, right?

Markus Watson:

We get clear about what really matters, what, about Things like, I don't need

Markus Watson:

to meet other people's approval, right?

Markus Watson:

That's not the most important thing.

Markus Watson:

I don't need to present this version of myself.

Markus Watson:

one of the, one of the, one really helpful book that I read was called

Markus Watson:

Falling Upward by Richard Rohr.

Markus Watson:

And he talks about, life in terms of first of half of life and second half of life

Markus Watson:

and, and the first half of life is he uses the image of building a container, right?

Markus Watson:

You spend the first half of your life building your container, and,

Markus Watson:

and it's and that's appropriate.

Markus Watson:

He says you need to, uh, of yourself.

Markus Watson:

You need to accomplish some things.

Markus Watson:

when you're a kid, you need mom and dad.

Markus Watson:

Hey, look, mom, no hands, that's first half of life stuff.

Markus Watson:

but you need that.

Markus Watson:

Oh, way to go.

Markus Watson:

Great job.

Markus Watson:

But if you stay there, if you, where all, where you're just constantly trying

Markus Watson:

to build your container, it's like you stay, you haven't fully developed as

Markus Watson:

a human being, and so at some point, you have to move into the second half.

Markus Watson:

And usually that happens through a really difficult experience, right?

Markus Watson:

For me, this experience at that church was the transition for me into second half

Markus Watson:

of life where it's, no longer about me.

Markus Watson:

And I'll be honest, I wanted to be an impressive pastor.

Markus Watson:

I wasn't the pastor of a big church, but I wanted to be, and

Markus Watson:

I, or at least a growing church.

Markus Watson:

I wanted people to say, man, Markus is doing such a great job at that church.

Markus Watson:

What a great pastor, And then everything fell apart.

Markus Watson:

And I was like, what was all of that for, And it just put me in this place of.

Markus Watson:

Reflection, deep reflection.

Markus Watson:

okay.

Markus Watson:

I'm going to, I'm going to share a moment with you that was I if I had to point

Markus Watson:

to a moment where I made the transition from first half of life to second half

Markus Watson:

of life, and by the way, second half of life, now you've got your container, but

Markus Watson:

your purpose now is to pour out, right?

Markus Watson:

You've got a container and now you pour out of your container.

Markus Watson:

You're not trying to build your container anymore.

Markus Watson:

You pour into other people.

Markus Watson:

So for me, that moment was, So I was accused of some really terrible things,

Markus Watson:

and, and I didn't know who was making these accusations, and our presbytery was

Markus Watson:

not following the right processes, we, one thing, presbyterians don't do everything

Markus Watson:

great, but one thing they do is they have some good processes when people are

Markus Watson:

accused of things, to protect the innocent and to protect the accuser, and so there's

Markus Watson:

some confidentiality involved, but anyway, they were not following the process, so

Markus Watson:

I was left pretty vulnerable in this.

Markus Watson:

So And, and the kinds of things I was being accused of are the kinds of

Markus Watson:

things that people go to prison for.

Markus Watson:

And so I was.

Markus Watson:

Sitting on my patio, and I was spending a lot of time reflecting on the Psalms

Markus Watson:

of Lament, during that time, and so I just spent some time in one of the

Markus Watson:

Psalms of Lament, and then I was just sitting there, and and thinking, and

Markus Watson:

reflecting, and an image came into my mind, and I was just thinking about,

Markus Watson:

all the things that I could lose, and I was like, man, I could lose my

Markus Watson:

job, which I did eventually, right?

Markus Watson:

I could lose, my reputation.

Markus Watson:

And that for me was almost the worst thing, because people would believe,

Markus Watson:

all these friends and colleagues would believe this thing about

Markus Watson:

me that wasn't even true, right?

Markus Watson:

I could lose my ordination as a pastor.

Markus Watson:

I could lose my family if it looks like this is true.

Markus Watson:

I don't actually think I would have, but those, that's where my

Markus Watson:

mind was spiraling into, right?

Markus Watson:

I could lose, due to the nature of these allegations, I could become a

Markus Watson:

registered sex offender if it looks like this is guilty, I'm guilty of this, and

Markus Watson:

everywhere I go, someone is going to, people are going to believe this thing,

Markus Watson:

and I'm going to have to say this thing that isn't true about me, and then I

Markus Watson:

thought, spiraling, I was like, I could go to prison, and I had this image of

Markus Watson:

myself sitting in a prison cell, All by myself, having lost everything, my job,

Markus Watson:

my ordination, my reputation, my family, my belongings, my house, and, and I'm all

Markus Watson:

alone, and then it was like I, I sensed God say to me, yes, Markus, you might

Markus Watson:

lose everything, and I didn't know yet, I might, I'm that, my future was unknown,

Markus Watson:

said you might lose everything, but you will never lose my love for you, and I

Markus Watson:

was like, like, that's the only thing No one can ever take away, and I was

Markus Watson:

like, Oh, And all of a sudden I was like, yeah, that's the only thing that matters.

Markus Watson:

And, and it changed the way I think I thought about myself.

Markus Watson:

Like my identity changed in a sense in that moment.

Markus Watson:

I believed in God's love.

Markus Watson:

I preached God's love, right?

Markus Watson:

God's unconditional love.

Markus Watson:

But it's like I didn't get it really until that moment.

Markus Watson:

And, so all of a sudden, I was no longer, again, thinking about what do you do, my

Markus Watson:

identity didn't become primarily I'm a pastor or a husband or a podcaster, which

Markus Watson:

I wasn't yet, but any of those things, my primary identity is I'm God's beloved.

Markus Watson:

And that's it.

Markus Watson:

And everything else is just an expression of that belovedness.

Markus Watson:

and it changed the way that I thought about ministry.

Markus Watson:

It changed the way that I thought about, being a pastor.

Markus Watson:

I was reading some really great books at that time.

Markus Watson:

One of them was, Life of the Beloved by Henry Nowen.

Markus Watson:

And he says in that book, And I'm paraphrasing here, something like,

Markus Watson:

once you discover yourself to be God's beloved, you just want everybody else

Markus Watson:

to know that they're God's beloved too.

Markus Watson:

And I was like, yeah, that's exactly how I feel right now.

Markus Watson:

I just want everybody to know.

Markus Watson:

And so when I think about my work as a pastor, I don't try to convince people

Markus Watson:

to get their theology right anymore.

Markus Watson:

I'll teach from the Bible, and here's what I think, this is what I think this means.

Markus Watson:

but the most important thing, I just want people to know that they're God's beloved.

Markus Watson:

And if I can, if I want to convince anyone of that's what I want to convince them of.

Markus Watson:

And that doesn't happen by teaching good doctrine, right?

Markus Watson:

that might play a little part in it.

Markus Watson:

But really it's, do I love the people, that I'm interacting with?

Markus Watson:

Do the people in our church love each other and love their neighbors, right?

Tim Winders:

I think so often, we, we've got it in our head, you go to

Tim Winders:

seminary, I went to Bible school, we got all this stuff in our head,

Tim Winders:

but at some point it has to pierce through that soul and get to the heart.

Tim Winders:

And I hate that we have to go through Usually crappy situations.

Tim Winders:

It seems like it was for me.

Tim Winders:

It sounds like for you I'm sure somebody listening in I do not want to dive deep

Tim Winders:

into this But I know that probably someone listening in is going to say so what was

Tim Winders:

the deal i'm going to Give what I believe is a synopsis and then you could correct

Tim Winders:

or whatever and then we'll move on because you've told this story on other things

Tim Winders:

you were accused of having some images on a laptop

Tim Winders:

that would not be

Tim Winders:

appropriate but everything was checked out after a long drawn out

Tim Winders:

process and you were exonerated you didn't have any of that.

Tim Winders:

It

Markus Watson:

I was exonerated by the

Markus Watson:

FBI,

Markus Watson:

by the way, right?

Markus Watson:

They

Markus Watson:

searched my entire yeah, they searched my entire laptop.

Markus Watson:

They said there's nothing here,

Tim Winders:

the FBI now, do they report to the Presbyterian

Tim Winders:

church or how does that work?

Tim Winders:

What's the, I'm

Markus Watson:

that's I know right?

Markus Watson:

but that's

Tim Winders:

I'm laughing

Markus Watson:

Yes, I know.

Markus Watson:

it was horrific.

Markus Watson:

I couldn't believe I was being investigated by the FBI.

Markus Watson:

But it was also a gift because when they said

Markus Watson:

case closed, okay, thank you.

Markus Watson:

All right.

Markus Watson:

and I didn't have to wonder, nobody had to wonder anymore.

Markus Watson:

And the only reason I got voted out, I think in the end was

Markus Watson:

because, there were, it was only by a margin of two votes, right?

Markus Watson:

so 50 50 split plus two on the side to vote me out.

Markus Watson:

And I think the reason is there were some people, there were some

Markus Watson:

people who, I don't know, just didn't trust me and wanted me out.

Markus Watson:

And then there were, I think there were a lot of people who were like, I don't

Markus Watson:

know, and maybe it's just better if we.

Markus Watson:

Get a new pastor, and so I get that, but I had a lot of great supporters as well who

Markus Watson:

were like Markus were with you and some of them actually come to my new church now.

Markus Watson:

So that's nice.

Tim Winders:

So here's a weird, this is a weird question about this.

Tim Winders:

And I know you've reflected quite a bit.

Tim Winders:

Do you think God wanted you out?

Markus Watson:

Oh yeah.

Markus Watson:

Good question.

Tim Winders:

Which then of course, wait, while you're thinking about that, which

Tim Winders:

then of course leads down this rabbit hole that I don't like to go on, but

Tim Winders:

what was God's part as this was going on?

Tim Winders:

You talked about suffering earlier.

Tim Winders:

I've always said God did not bring on the downturn of 2008

Tim Winders:

when we had companies and businesses.

Tim Winders:

But boy, I sure do know he used it to get to me when it happened.

Tim Winders:

So

Tim Winders:

then and then of course we start studying job, which don't go

Tim Winders:

down that rabbit hole there.

Tim Winders:

We don't know

Markus Watson:

so when I think about that, I don't think that God caused it.

Markus Watson:

I think that sinful people caused it.

Markus Watson:

and they have free will and, the person who made these initial allegations,

Markus Watson:

came, I think, from her own brokenness, and, anyway, and so no, so I don't

Markus Watson:

think that God wanted me out.

Markus Watson:

I would say no.

Markus Watson:

I would say that God wanted to be with me whatever happens, right?

Markus Watson:

And, I think that if I had stayed.

Markus Watson:

The transformation had already happened in me, and so I would have led differently

Markus Watson:

even if I had stayed in that church.

Markus Watson:

I don't even know that, I don't think I would even say that God

Markus Watson:

wanted me to go through that.

Markus Watson:

Although, it's also hard to say, this is the paradox, right?

Markus Watson:

Where I don't think God wants me to suffer.

Markus Watson:

But he's also there's going to be suffering, Markus,

Markus Watson:

because this is a broken world.

Markus Watson:

And, but I will be with you, right?

Markus Watson:

In the midst of that suffering.

Markus Watson:

and it scares me a little bit to think that there's going to

Markus Watson:

be more suffering in my life.

Markus Watson:

I'm going to lose people I love.

Markus Watson:

That's part of life, and all of that.

Markus Watson:

And, but God's going to be with me in all of that.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Yeah,

Tim Winders:

I don't I have to be cautious going down this thought process Because the way

Tim Winders:

my mind is wired and we've got leaders listening in and you work with leaders

Tim Winders:

all the time We like to be optimistic But at times We have to be realistic

Tim Winders:

But then at times I think we have to be pessimistic And I think our challenge is

Tim Winders:

knowing when to turn it on and turn it off because I'll give you a quick story

Tim Winders:

that happened to us just the other day.

Tim Winders:

Our son travels, lives in his RV, just like we do.

Tim Winders:

And he has a trailer where he carries.

Tim Winders:

Now he has two motorcycles that he carries with it and he parked his

Tim Winders:

rig near a trailhead up almost at the Canadian border in Washington State.

Tim Winders:

Not much around there and he'd gone camping with some people,

Tim Winders:

had one motorcycle with him.

Tim Winders:

Came back, someone had stolen one of his motorcycles off the back of his trailer.

Tim Winders:

And you know like, Like we were talking about, something happens,

Tim Winders:

it kind of, you know, you lose faith in humanity, and he waited a couple

Tim Winders:

days before he told us about it.

Tim Winders:

He reported it to the police and stuff like that.

Tim Winders:

We called us up and my wife is wired.

Tim Winders:

She does not like to be stolen from.

Tim Winders:

She is.

Tim Winders:

I think when she was young, she had a father that, anyway,

Tim Winders:

we've all got issues that we

Tim Winders:

deal with.

Tim Winders:

So 24 hours later, somebody had called and found his motorcycle.

Tim Winders:

Someone just put it in a ditch.

Tim Winders:

Didn't really damage anything.

Tim Winders:

They didn't have the keys to it.

Tim Winders:

And some girl and her dad were out camping.

Tim Winders:

And this girl was a teenager, was maniacal about dad.

Tim Winders:

This is somebody's motorcycle.

Tim Winders:

We got to find who it

Tim Winders:

is.

Tim Winders:

So

Tim Winders:

he gets a call.

Tim Winders:

So yesterday, 36 hours later, he goes and picks up his motorcycle, all good.

Tim Winders:

And so now he says he's, he was just praying and said, Lord, what

Tim Winders:

do I need to learn from this?

Tim Winders:

Did I do something that, and we don't know.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I, you know, our prayer was just that God would show off our son

Tim Winders:

and help build his faith and all that.

Tim Winders:

But I don't even know why I brought up that story other than, I think we're

Tim Winders:

all, And I hate to use the, we're just in a fallen world and stuff's going on,

Markus Watson:

That's right.

Markus Watson:

That's right.

Tim Winders:

but we are.

Markus Watson:

We are.

Markus Watson:

We are.

Markus Watson:

yeah.

Markus Watson:

And, when I, again, I think about the cross, like when I think about

Markus Watson:

Paul saying, I have been crucified with Christ, that was one of those

Markus Watson:

things that I, that occurred to me as I was going through that.

Markus Watson:

And all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, wait, he means literally in a sense, figuratively,

Markus Watson:

but literally, I, my experience of life is one of being crucified with Jesus.

Markus Watson:

And we might even say Jesus being crucified with us, right?

Markus Watson:

I think there's something about suffering that can unite us with Jesus in a

Markus Watson:

way that we can't if we don't suffer.

Markus Watson:

I think part of the reason Jesus came is, sometimes I wonder, Could Jesus

Markus Watson:

have rescued us without the cross?

Markus Watson:

Maybe.

Markus Watson:

if God is God, He can do whatever He wants, At the same time, If he's really

Markus Watson:

truly going to identify with humanity, so that I think we can then join him,

Markus Watson:

be united to him, God, as the man Jesus, had to experience suffering, and an

Markus Watson:

intense, extreme kind of suffering, right?

Markus Watson:

The, it's the worst suffering, perhaps, than, Most of us

Markus Watson:

will ever experience, right?

Markus Watson:

and that gives me, that, that makes me love Jesus.

Markus Watson:

It makes me love God to think that God doesn't understand some suffering

Markus Watson:

simply because he's omniscient, he understands suffering because

Markus Watson:

he actually experienced it, right?

Markus Watson:

And so that when God, when I go through something really hard and God says,

Markus Watson:

I know what you're going through.

Markus Watson:

He's not just saying that because he knows everything.

Markus Watson:

he's saying that because he went through something really hard too, and, that makes

Markus Watson:

me wanna belong to this God, wants me to stay connected to this God all my life.

Tim Winders:

you mentioned layers of onion earlier and it it's that way for me.

Tim Winders:

I think every experience that we have reveals to me that

Tim Winders:

he's drawing me closer to him.

Tim Winders:

And as long as I'm not just, All out resisting it, which at times I'm

Tim Winders:

sure I'm not totally cooperating,

Markus Watson:

Yeah, sure.

Tim Winders:

I want to ask one more thing before we kind of move.

Tim Winders:

I want to really get into some discussion about Shalom

Tim Winders:

because.

Tim Winders:

I think this is where all this is leading because I think when we get

Tim Winders:

to the place where we understand this or at least try to grasp it a little

Tim Winders:

better is where we get closer to this place where we're at rest or Shalom, but

Tim Winders:

I do want to I do want to say that my observation about we'll just call it.

Tim Winders:

Bad stuff.

Tim Winders:

Trauma.

Tim Winders:

there's so many words that are used.

Tim Winders:

I actually, the word trauma, I still struggle with.

Tim Winders:

I don't know why.

Tim Winders:

So when we went through our financial situation, it was financial primarily,

Tim Winders:

but a big chunk of my identity was wrapped up in, I'm a business guy.

Tim Winders:

I'm good at

Tim Winders:

this.

Tim Winders:

And you mentioned earlier that part of your just, your thought

Tim Winders:

process was, what if I lose my job?

Tim Winders:

which wasn't really a super spiritual.

Tim Winders:

You know, thought is like, Oh no, what if I don't have enough money

Tim Winders:

in my bank account to pay my bills?

Tim Winders:

It's like, uh,

Tim Winders:

I think there's scriptures for that.

Tim Winders:

And I knew all those scriptures and I know you did too, but yet still,

Tim Winders:

that's the thought we have.

Tim Winders:

So that was pretty rough for us.

Tim Winders:

But then a few years later, we were, our souls were being restored.

Tim Winders:

We traveled around.

Tim Winders:

We are, one of our experiences where we were in New Zealand.

Tim Winders:

It's far away, geographically.

Tim Winders:

As we could be from Atlanta, Georgia, where we were going

Tim Winders:

through a bunch of our stuff.

Tim Winders:

And it's like the Lord started ministering.

Tim Winders:

I don't even know if I want to go down the

Tim Winders:

geographic aspect

Tim Winders:

of what you did with your hike and stuff like that.

Tim Winders:

I think getting away from things is important.

Tim Winders:

When we went to Bible school, we were so excited because we were going

Tim Winders:

to be hanging out with Christians.

Tim Winders:

And we were going to be studying the word, four or five hours

Tim Winders:

a day and stuff like that.

Tim Winders:

that experience ended up being more, I'll use the word traumatic,

Tim Winders:

than even the business experience.

Tim Winders:

I don't know if we let our guard down.

Tim Winders:

I don't know if we had

Tim Winders:

different expectations.

Tim Winders:

I don't know what it was.

Tim Winders:

But, I'll give the quick synopsis.

Tim Winders:

it wasn't as if I was kicked out, but they told me they didn't want

Tim Winders:

me to come back for the third year.

Tim Winders:

And as far as accusations and things, Markus, I have no idea because no one ever

Tim Winders:

talked to me or said anything about it.

Tim Winders:

I didn't realize how that impacted me until as I kept going, I'm

Tim Winders:

like going, wow, but why is it?

Tim Winders:

And I know you've now have interacted with a number of people.

Tim Winders:

I think there's levels of trauma,

Tim Winders:

levels of situations, and how challenging is it because This is getting uglier

Tim Winders:

and uglier for people that are going through this type stuff in what we

Tim Winders:

would think as, air quotes for those listening, those watching can see it,

Tim Winders:

spiritual or Christian environments.

Markus Watson:

Yeah, so I, the only real experience of trauma, if we're

Markus Watson:

going to use that word or, I think the reason trauma is good is because

Markus Watson:

later on, I think of trauma connected to triggering and there are things

Markus Watson:

even now that trigger me and I'm like, Oh, it's because of that trauma.

Markus Watson:

So anyway.

Markus Watson:

That's why I like the word, but, this was my only really big experience.

Markus Watson:

So how does it compare to other kinds of suffering?

Markus Watson:

if it does hurt more, and I think it probably does, I think it's because

Markus Watson:

we associate the church, let's say, or Christian community with a God

Markus Watson:

who we believe to be good, right?

Markus Watson:

And when this church or Christian community fails us or turns on

Markus Watson:

us, it's like a betrayal, right?

Markus Watson:

It's not just a hurt, it's a betrayal, because they are supposed

Markus Watson:

to be a community of love, right?

Markus Watson:

There's, we're supposed to be able to trust them.

Markus Watson:

We're supposed to be able to, turn to them with our hard questions or

Markus Watson:

hard challenges and find support and love and not be judged.

Markus Watson:

Jesus said stuff about that, right?

Markus Watson:

And, and so when, our church, our community becomes, an experience of

Markus Watson:

judgment, of a rejection, of betrayal.

Markus Watson:

I think it hurts all the more because it's not supposed to be that.

Markus Watson:

it's one thing if, if you're a kid and the bully at school is mean to you, but that's

Markus Watson:

what you expect from the bully, right?

Markus Watson:

You don't expect that from the people of God.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

yeah, from a board member of your church or from

Tim Winders:

a, a director of a Bible school or it's like, Whoa, wait, what?

Markus Watson:

We're supposed to be in this together like what and there

Markus Watson:

are ways to if you have questions about me or concerns, right?

Markus Watson:

Jesus talks about if you have something against your brother or sister, here's

Markus Watson:

what to do, And so often we don't do that.

Markus Watson:

We just make snap judgments

Tim Winders:

but yet we've got great examples.

Tim Winders:

I'm hanging out in the book of John right now.

Tim Winders:

And I'm, I don't know, I'm on chapter 10 or something like that.

Tim Winders:

I'll read two or three chapters and then just

Tim Winders:

meditate on it, marinate in it for a few days or something

Tim Winders:

like that.

Tim Winders:

And I might have shared this with you.

Tim Winders:

I could see that Jesus probably communicated with three groups,

Tim Winders:

the sheep, his disciples, and then what we'll call the wolves, which

Tim Winders:

That was the church

Tim Winders:

people

Markus Watson:

leaders.

Tim Winders:

the,

Tim Winders:

Pharisees.

Tim Winders:

And I've been reading through some dialogue where it's oh my goodness, you

Tim Winders:

know what I went through at bible school?

Tim Winders:

Pales in comparison.

Tim Winders:

we talk about

Tim Winders:

suffering.

Tim Winders:

It's Jesus, what would it be like to be okay?

Tim Winders:

I'm the son of God.

Tim Winders:

he knew that he was

Tim Winders:

confident in that I'm here and they're going, we gotta get rid of this guy.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

And it's, it is interesting, isn't it, that the only people that Jesus actually,

Markus Watson:

attacks is maybe not the right word, but.

Markus Watson:

resists or preaches against are the religious leaders.

Markus Watson:

he doesn't do that against any other group, but which always makes me feel like

Markus Watson:

I'm in the wrong group or I need to be a different kind of a person in that group.

Markus Watson:

Nicodemus, was, was in that group and yet different or Joseph of Arimathea.

Markus Watson:

And anyway, I need to be one of those

Tim Winders:

There were just a couple of them there.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

I think that's one of the things I think, at times I could be pretty, because

Tim Winders:

I was saved in a business setting.

Tim Winders:

I don't know that a church setting would have been that

Tim Winders:

inviting to me.

Tim Winders:

I mean, just the way my makeup was.

Tim Winders:

And so I could be a little bit critical of kind of structure and things like

Tim Winders:

that, but then I think we need to be because Jesus obviously was pressing,

Tim Winders:

but somewhere along the way, Markus.

Tim Winders:

This word shalom started entering into your vernacular and things like that.

Tim Winders:

At what point, and there's a great course we're going to link to it and

Tim Winders:

we'll talk a little bit about it here, but at what point did that word shalom

Tim Winders:

start being more of your vocabulary?

Markus Watson:

you know it happened I don't remember exactly where I started

Markus Watson:

to pick up on it, but it started, it started to be something more meaningful

Markus Watson:

to me around that time that all that terrible stuff was happening.

Markus Watson:

and I'm pretty sure it was before, before I got voted out of that church,

Markus Watson:

but I started to, just think, I started to realize in some way that

Markus Watson:

shalom and maybe, so that shalom is at the heart of God's mission.

Markus Watson:

What's shalom?

Markus Watson:

I came across the definition somewhere, and I don't remember where, and I would

Markus Watson:

love to find out so that I can give proper credit, but I even googled it, I typed in

Markus Watson:

the exact definition, which I saved from somewhere, and I cannot find it, I can't

Markus Watson:

claim it as my own, but I don't know where it comes from, but here's the definition.

Markus Watson:

of Shalom.

Markus Watson:

Shalom is not just, so it's peace.

Markus Watson:

It means peace, right?

Markus Watson:

And that's a good translation into English.

Markus Watson:

it was a greeting, that they use still today in Hebrew.

Markus Watson:

but a good way of thinking about what Shalom is that it is a comprehensive

Markus Watson:

state of well being that touches every aspect of life, right?

Markus Watson:

So your spiritual life, your family life, your physical health life, your financial

Markus Watson:

and economic life, your nutritional life, your neighborhood life, right?

Markus Watson:

Your political life, your civic life.

Markus Watson:

so every aspect of life.

Markus Watson:

That's what Shalom is.

Markus Watson:

And I came to this sort of realization that You know, that's

Markus Watson:

what God created the world to be.

Markus Watson:

God created the world to be a world of shalom.

Markus Watson:

The creation story in Genesis doesn't use the word shalom, but

Markus Watson:

what is depicted in the garden is, an existence of shalom, right?

Markus Watson:

Harmony is another good word, right?

Markus Watson:

It is a, everything was as it was meant to be.

Markus Watson:

There, there was peace, there was goodness, there was love, and, there

Markus Watson:

was care, Adam was charged with caring for the garden and to work.

Markus Watson:

I love it.

Markus Watson:

So work was there.

Markus Watson:

Work is part of Shalom.

Markus Watson:

There's a difference between work and toil, right?

Markus Watson:

But, but work is part of Shalom, doing things that matter as a

Markus Watson:

part of the experience of Shalom.

Markus Watson:

so I came to this.

Markus Watson:

Understanding and, when I was working with Flor San Diego, I learned about

Markus Watson:

the fourfold nature of Shalom, which is that we were created to experience

Markus Watson:

Shalom and four key relationships, between us and God, between us and

Markus Watson:

each other, between us and the created order and, within our own selves.

Markus Watson:

So an inner kind of Shalom.

Markus Watson:

and when you look at the creation story, you can see all four of

Markus Watson:

those relationships of Shalom and At the fall, when sin enters the

Markus Watson:

world, Shalom is broken in all four of those key relationships.

Markus Watson:

Shalom is broken between human beings and God, right?

Markus Watson:

As soon as they eat the fruit, they hide, right?

Markus Watson:

They don't feel safe with God anymore because they're ashamed.

Markus Watson:

And God comes and He says, Where are you?

Markus Watson:

Where are you?

Markus Watson:

you?

Markus Watson:

know, it's like I've never had to look for you before.

Markus Watson:

Shalom has been broken.

Markus Watson:

there's a lack of well being at that point between God and human, human beings.

Markus Watson:

shalom is broken between human beings and each other, right?

Markus Watson:

why did you eat the fruit?

Markus Watson:

she told me to eat the fruit.

Markus Watson:

that thing told me to eat the fruit, right?

Markus Watson:

And so there's finger pointing and they're ashamed.

Markus Watson:

they, all of a sudden they realize they're naked.

Markus Watson:

At the end of chapter two, I think it says they were naked and they felt no shame.

Markus Watson:

That's not a physical statement.

Markus Watson:

That's a theological statement.

Markus Watson:

They were able to be free and open and exposed and there be

Markus Watson:

their true selves without hiding anything and not feel ashamed

Markus Watson:

about anything about who they were.

Markus Watson:

And that's lost, between Adam and Eve, between the human beings.

Markus Watson:

There's brokenness, broken Shalom in, in their relationship with the created order.

Markus Watson:

I think that's what the curses are about.

Markus Watson:

It's that now, childbearing is going to be painful, whereas perhaps

Markus Watson:

it wouldn't have been before.

Markus Watson:

I don't know, but there's a brokenness.

Markus Watson:

the earth is not going to cooperate with you when you work the earth anymore.

Markus Watson:

you're going to have to put a lot of effort and sometimes it won't work, right?

Markus Watson:

So there's a broken really, again, I think this is a lot of it is

Markus Watson:

figurative and metaphorical.

Markus Watson:

There's a broken relationship between us and the rest of creation.

Markus Watson:

And then there's a broken, inner shalom.

Markus Watson:

And that kind of goes back to shame again, where they.

Markus Watson:

They feel ashamed about who they are and what they've done and what they've become.

Markus Watson:

And, and then the rest of the Bible is all about God.

Markus Watson:

we have New Testament, Old Testament, New Testament.

Markus Watson:

That's one way of breaking up the Bible or dividing it.

Markus Watson:

You can also divide it into Genesis 1, 2, and 3, which is creation

Markus Watson:

and then the loss of Shalom.

Markus Watson:

And then Genesis 4 to the end, Revelation 22 is all about God working

Markus Watson:

to restore shalom in the world, right?

Markus Watson:

And so what I love about that is that it's not just about, it's not just about

Markus Watson:

salvation, in other words, trying to get people to go to heaven when they die.

Markus Watson:

That's part of it, because that's part of the restoration of

Markus Watson:

shalom between us and God, right?

Markus Watson:

but what God wants to do is all of it.

Markus Watson:

He also wants to restore shalom between us and each other.

Markus Watson:

God, God wants to restore shalom between Ukraine and Russia.

Markus Watson:

I don't know what will happen or how that'll work, or between races that

Markus Watson:

don't get along with each other, or even political parties that

Markus Watson:

don't get along with each other.

Markus Watson:

It would be God's desire to restore shalom.

Markus Watson:

there's a lot of lack of shalom in our world today.

Markus Watson:

Anyway, so restore shalom in that way.

Markus Watson:

and so all these different kinds of ministries that I think churches and

Markus Watson:

Christians do, all of those are part of God's Plan and one is not necessarily

Markus Watson:

better than the other because they are all working to restore Shalom, Yeah,

Markus Watson:

and so that's become really helpful to me and really meaningful to me

Markus Watson:

And I think the more that churches can lean into that and recognize that

Markus Watson:

not all of us are Not every church is wired for, on the street evangelism.

Markus Watson:

And not every church is wired for creation care.

Markus Watson:

But both of those are important, and both of those are a part of the

Markus Watson:

restoration of shalom in the world.

Markus Watson:

And so how are we called to participate with God in restoring Shalom in the world?

Tim Winders:

I remember sitting, it was back during a little bit of the turmoil

Tim Winders:

time when we were at Bible school.

Tim Winders:

We had a little apartment there and we, the balcony sat looking out over,

Tim Winders:

it wasn't like a highway, but it was like a four lane road that came into

Tim Winders:

this little town we were in Colorado.

Tim Winders:

And this particular morning I was spending just time I think it was prayer.

Tim Winders:

I don't know.

Tim Winders:

Could have been whining, could have been complaining, but for, that was my prayer

Tim Winders:

at that time.

Markus Watson:

I've done

Tim Winders:

and it, there was a good bit of

Tim Winders:

traffic on the road.

Tim Winders:

It was going by and I was just talking about this topic.

Tim Winders:

I'll use the term rest at times and sometimes Sabbath.

Tim Winders:

Which is lumped into this and in, in the novel I wrote, I actually wrote one of

Tim Winders:

the three principles was being at rest or being at peace and the word Shalom.

Tim Winders:

I think I threw in that description.

Tim Winders:

So that's why it's near and dear to me.

Tim Winders:

But when I was sitting there.

Tim Winders:

Just talking about to the Lord about all that's going on in the world and all

Tim Winders:

the stuff and the junk and all that and I felt as if the Lord said, as someone

Tim Winders:

who is part of my kingdom, he says, you should be able to walk out into all of

Tim Winders:

the chaos of this traffic, this road.

Tim Winders:

Now there's a physical issue there.

Tim Winders:

I don't want to get run over by a car, but all the noise, all the chaos

Tim Winders:

and still be at rest or at peace.

Tim Winders:

And shalom.

Tim Winders:

Now, I got to tell you, Markus, I don't think I've gotten there.

Tim Winders:

There's a lot of stuff on and all of that.

Tim Winders:

But I do think what I love what you said, it's almost like we're

Tim Winders:

going through this process of being restored to the shalom of creation.

Tim Winders:

And as long as I, you know, we were talking earlier about we're being

Tim Winders:

drawn into God, drawn into his sphere, closer, closer, getting our

Tim Winders:

souls healed, all that type stuff.

Tim Winders:

As long as we're doing that, We are at a better place of Shalom rest.

Tim Winders:

And then I want to the thing, and then I'll let you just respond to whatever

Tim Winders:

you want to do there is I do think there are people, this is where I

Tim Winders:

jump on the prosperity gospel message, which I spent a good bit of time in the

Tim Winders:

prosperity gospel, but I actually believe

Tim Winders:

that a lot of first world churches are prosperity gospel churches.

Tim Winders:

Without knowing it because they have this awesome God mindset.

Tim Winders:

if we go to church, if we check the box, do certain things, then

Tim Winders:

we've got money in the bank account.

Tim Winders:

Life is good.

Tim Winders:

Life is awesome.

Tim Winders:

Which is the prosperity gospel, by the way.

Markus Watson:

yeah,

Tim Winders:

and I think you can probably admit that's, there are some that are

Tim Winders:

hardcore prosperity, but then there are some that, and also having said all

Tim Winders:

that, just, what do you want to respond?

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

So again, going back to the paradox of suffering, sometimes God can

Markus Watson:

bring Shalom out of suffering.

Markus Watson:

That was my experience.

Markus Watson:

And sometimes I think God can bring even greater Shalom out of suffering

Markus Watson:

than, again, God can do whatever he wants, but I think we experience

Markus Watson:

greater Shalom having been through a time of suffering than if we never go

Markus Watson:

through any kind of suffering at all.

Markus Watson:

In other words, and Shalom again, inner wholeness.

Markus Watson:

true connection with our Creator, being able to have compassion on those

Markus Watson:

around us and thereby more united with those around us, a unity with those

Markus Watson:

around us because we have been through something hard and challenging, right?

Markus Watson:

Again, the paradox, God restored Shalom in the world by means of a crucified

Markus Watson:

falsely accused person, and that person became a savior, and a healer

Markus Watson:

and a restorer and, and a comforter.

Markus Watson:

yes, he and the spirit are one, right?

Markus Watson:

So Jesus and the spirit are both comforters, right?

Markus Watson:

And, Yeah, so prosperity gospel, keeps us at a very, I think, shallow level,

Markus Watson:

whether, whether intentionally or unintentionally, unknowingly, it keeps us

Markus Watson:

at a very shallow level of spirituality.

Markus Watson:

this victory minded kind of spirituality where you got to win.

Markus Watson:

If we're not winning in some way, then God must not be with us or we're

Markus Watson:

not being faithful or we have to.

Markus Watson:

Increase our goodness or whatever it is, and I think part of what we learn

Markus Watson:

when we go through hard things is that we don't have to be good enough.

Markus Watson:

We don't have to be successful enough.

Markus Watson:

God doesn't care how successful I am.

Markus Watson:

He just cares about me, right?

Markus Watson:

He doesn't care about whether I'm a good pastor or, or a good podcaster

Markus Watson:

or even, I hesitate to say this, but even a good husband or dad,

Markus Watson:

he does care about those things.

Markus Watson:

but that's, but if I mess up, if I, Say something I shouldn't have

Markus Watson:

said or even give a look to my kids.

Markus Watson:

I shouldn't have given that doesn't change anything in terms

Markus Watson:

of my relationship with God.

Markus Watson:

And I can be forgiven and I can be restored.

Markus Watson:

And, and, and you get a certain humility when you go through something really hard.

Markus Watson:

And so then I'm able to reconcile, when I need to reconcile.

Tim Winders:

One of the things I love about the conversation we've

Tim Winders:

had is that I can almost circle back to my first question, which

Tim Winders:

is, I asked, what do you do?

Tim Winders:

And then we got off on, maybe it should be, who are you and all that.

Tim Winders:

And to me, what I just heard you say was understanding who we are, our position

Tim Winders:

is probably the foundational root of that Shalom being at peace and rest.

Tim Winders:

And I don't know that I've always understood that.

Tim Winders:

I still am not sure that I totally grasp it, because we are programmed

Tim Winders:

for conditional love, and that is total unconditional, and I think

Tim Winders:

we're uncomfortable with it at times.

Tim Winders:

it's like this is an unconditional love.

Tim Winders:

And what you just said is I don't, I think what, when you were talking

Tim Winders:

about being a, does God care if you're a good husband, father and all that.

Tim Winders:

I think he does care, but it doesn't change your position

Tim Winders:

with him if you suck at it.

Tim Winders:

if you're like bad dad.

Tim Winders:

Whatever, you hate to say there's paths we could go down here

Tim Winders:

that would be not appropriate.

Tim Winders:

but he still, we had somebody on the podcast, MarKus, Quan Huynh years ago.

Tim Winders:

And I asked him the most, every time someone asked me the seminal moment

Tim Winders:

of the podcast, it's this one moment.

Tim Winders:

He had pulled the trigger and murdered someone, spent time in

Tim Winders:

prison and had been released.

Tim Winders:

And now he's in ministry going back into prisons.

Tim Winders:

And I asked him, I said, Quan, do you think that God forgives

Tim Winders:

you for killing someone?

Tim Winders:

Now, we could rank sin if we want to.

Tim Winders:

We could rank, the pornography like, and other,

Tim Winders:

business stuff.

Tim Winders:

We could rank it all.

Tim Winders:

But I think most of us would say that taking someone else's

Tim Winders:

life would be high up there.

Tim Winders:

And there was this nice pause and he said, yes, Tim, I believe that

Tim Winders:

God has forgiven me with that.

Tim Winders:

And that is some

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

shalom because I still go through, I think a lot of it's

Tim Winders:

being cleared up and a lot of that soul type stuff we're dealing with,

Tim Winders:

but so what do, so I think that what do we do and who are we is that root

Tim Winders:

of Shalom, but you've written a course around this and I've been able to go

Tim Winders:

through some of it, but not all of it.

Tim Winders:

Tell us about that course and how that came to be.

Markus Watson:

the course is called, it's called becoming leaders of Shalom.

Markus Watson:

and, it's interesting.

Markus Watson:

it developed that title over time.

Markus Watson:

That was not my initial title.

Markus Watson:

I was, I gave it to some friends for feedback.

Markus Watson:

And, one of them said, that's not, I think I called it transformative leadership.

Markus Watson:

He's that's not really what it's about.

Markus Watson:

Although anyway, and I focused a lot on adaptive leadership.

Markus Watson:

That's part of it.

Markus Watson:

Anyway.

Markus Watson:

As I'm working through this, I'm like, this is really about how do

Markus Watson:

we become leaders of Shalom, leaders who bring well being into the world.

Markus Watson:

and so And I, and, I'm thinking about pastors in particular, but this

Markus Watson:

could apply to all kinds of leaders.

Markus Watson:

so I spent some time in the course talking about the challenge, that

Markus Watson:

we're facing in the world today, in a world that is different from the one we

Markus Watson:

experienced some lack of shalom, because we feel disoriented in the world today.

Markus Watson:

We feel in a state of disequilibrium.

Markus Watson:

Exile is one of the ways that I talk about it, and these are words that we

Markus Watson:

want to feel balanced, we don't want to feel unbalanced, we want to feel at

Markus Watson:

home, not in exile, and yet, there is good that can come out of all of these.

Markus Watson:

This is what we've been talking about, when you feel like you're in exile,

Markus Watson:

like you're just not at home where you are, you don't feel settled.

Markus Watson:

God can do some good things out of that.

Markus Watson:

when you feel in a state of disequilibrium, unbalanced, this comes

Markus Watson:

from a book called Surfing the Edge of Chaos, which is a business book

Markus Watson:

actually, and they talk about how organizations need to go through times

Markus Watson:

of disequilibrium because it makes them stronger and more resilient.

Markus Watson:

And they talk about systems in general, ecosystems, human body systems need to

Markus Watson:

go through periods of disequilibrium to become stronger and more resilient.

Markus Watson:

we talk about that, talk about the mission of God and God's mission of

Markus Watson:

Shalom and how then to lead in, in the world when you don't have the answers.

Markus Watson:

This is what we call adaptive leadership, and that's part of,

Markus Watson:

I think, leading with Shalom.

Markus Watson:

What do you do when you don't have any experts who know the answers, right?

Markus Watson:

we lead with some, we lead with confidence.

Markus Watson:

But knowing that we can just try stuff and fail, right?

Markus Watson:

Anyway, and then I talk about the inner Shalom that we need to experience and

Markus Watson:

leading from a place of wholeness.

Markus Watson:

And, I talk a little bit about, self differentiation, which I don't know if

Markus Watson:

you know that kind of language, but it's the idea of I can be who I am because

Markus Watson:

I'm a child of God created in the image of God, and you can be who you are, and

Markus Watson:

we don't have to agree on everything, but we can move through this challenging

Markus Watson:

circumstance with confidence, and then I talk about some spiritual formation

Markus Watson:

stuff in terms of spiritual practices, anyway, that's an outline, but really

Markus Watson:

my hope for the course is just to start the journey kind of a course, right?

Markus Watson:

and so how do we begin to think about, I want to help leaders begin to think about

Markus Watson:

how do we respond to challenges in our lives and ministries or workplaces, right?

Markus Watson:

How do we lean into, I think even if you're a business leader, you're

Markus Watson:

still called to be a restorer of shalom in the world, right?

Markus Watson:

And one of the ways we do that is by providing Goods and services that bring

Markus Watson:

joy and hope and peace, and provision for your employees and, all of that.

Markus Watson:

That's all part of the restoration of Shalom.

Markus Watson:

and I just want, I want people to lean into that, right?

Markus Watson:

That my role as a leader is to participate with God in restoring Shalom in the world.

Markus Watson:

and here's a roadmap to get us started.

Markus Watson:

That's what this is.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

I loved when you were talking about, the, is it Camino de Santiago?

Tim Winders:

Did I get

Tim Winders:

that

Tim Winders:

Camino de Santiago?

Tim Winders:

You it sounded as if you were doing some wrestling, but yet

Tim Winders:

you were at a place of Shalom.

Tim Winders:

And my thought that came to mind then I'll bring it up now is why can't we do that?

Tim Winders:

Where we live and work instead of having to go, because I've been the same way.

Tim Winders:

like I mentioned, we were on the other side of the world in New Zealand, and I

Tim Winders:

think our goal it is to experience that shalom, that peace, that Sabbath, and so

Tim Winders:

this course, I've hit a few of the videos.

Tim Winders:

I like it's good, short, concise.

Tim Winders:

I do want to mention to people it's free too,

Tim Winders:

correct?

Markus Watson:

that's right.

Markus Watson:

It's free.

Markus Watson:

A hundred percent free.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, and we'll, in just a little while, I'll let you

Tim Winders:

tell people where to find it and all of that kind of stuff, but so

Tim Winders:

just give us a quick, what is a way?

Tim Winders:

And you may not know

Tim Winders:

the answer to this,

Tim Winders:

but what is a way that we can experience some of that Camino de

Tim Winders:

Santiago experience in our regular day to day life, because I think that's

Tim Winders:

what we're all trying to look for.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Markus Watson:

Oh, man.

Markus Watson:

Good question.

Markus Watson:

Good question.

Markus Watson:

I think, in some way we need to create space in our lives.

Markus Watson:

So the reason I say that is the most one of the wonderful things about

Markus Watson:

the Camino was that there was very little decision making involved.

Markus Watson:

There are little yellow arrows, all along the path and you

Markus Watson:

just follow the arrows, right?

Markus Watson:

Turn here, go straight that way, turn this way now, right?

Markus Watson:

and there was a little bit of, culture shock almost or some kind of shock coming

Markus Watson:

back because I'm like, Oh my gosh, I gotta start making decisions again, right?

Markus Watson:

so what the Camino did was it gives you space to not have

Markus Watson:

to make decisions, but then...

Markus Watson:

You have space to reflect on all the things that God wants to do deep down.

Markus Watson:

And so I think if we can create space in our lives, I love hiking.

Markus Watson:

There's some, trails nearby, just going for a hike about once a week.

Markus Watson:

sometimes I'll do go stand up paddle boarding, and it doesn't have to

Markus Watson:

be like an active kind of a thing.

Markus Watson:

It could be just a time of scripture, prayer, silence.

Markus Watson:

Or even, you know what, so one of the things I talk about in the course is

Markus Watson:

a rule of life, developing a rule of life, which is basically a framework

Markus Watson:

for your life, for spiritual growth and a rule of life means I'm going

Markus Watson:

to include these things in my life.

Markus Watson:

scripture, prayer, calling mom and dad once a week, going to the movies.

Markus Watson:

I used to have that as part of my rule of life, but it created a

Markus Watson:

little bit of space for me to enjoy, do something that I delighted in.

Markus Watson:

And then going in, I'd be like, okay, Lord, thanks for this

Markus Watson:

story that I'm about to be told.

Markus Watson:

And it just created some space in my life, where I didn't have to decide anything.

Markus Watson:

I could just get a story from someone, anyway, I think the more that we can

Markus Watson:

create space in our lives, the more we can be open to the shalom that God has for us.

Markus Watson:

I think it helps us to see the things that we do, with a healthier perspective.

Markus Watson:

sometimes we see, oh, I'm doing this thing and it is actually not bringing

Markus Watson:

Shalom into my life or my family's life or my employee's lives or the

Markus Watson:

people we serve or whoever, right?

Markus Watson:

and then we can get some clarity on those things.

Markus Watson:

So I think that's what I would say is just create some space in your life.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

I like that.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Because I, the thing that I heard when you were over, over there doing

Tim Winders:

the Camino was that you didn't have a lot of distractions for eight days.

Tim Winders:

probably weren't checking your phone.

Tim Winders:

You may have had it with you, but hopefully shut it down.

Tim Winders:

And my wife and I talk about this all the time, that we want to start taking

Tim Winders:

Sabbath from devices because these devices, I think they're awesome.

Tim Winders:

we're on one right now.

Tim Winders:

Someone's probably listening in on one

Tim Winders:

and they can nourish our soul, but I also think they could eat away at

Tim Winders:

it and take chunks and distract us.

Tim Winders:

So I love that create space.

Tim Winders:

And the thing about that is Markus, I think every leader, every person, every

Tim Winders:

individual has to find their own way.

Tim Winders:

Down that path, you and I could, we could sit here and say, okay,

Tim Winders:

here's the three ways to do it, or seven, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

Tim Winders:

But I think everybody's got to have some quiet, still time to find it.

Tim Winders:

And I love it.

Tim Winders:

I look forward to diving into the course more.

Tim Winders:

Markus, where can people find the course and anything else you got?

Tim Winders:

Go ahead and let us know now, and we'll include some things down in the notes.

Tim Winders:

So people can just click through.

Markus Watson:

So the course, you can get by going to,

Markus Watson:

MarkusWatson.com/LeadersofShalom and it's Markus with a K, right?

Markus Watson:

Not Markus with a c.

Markus Watson:

Markus with a k MarkusWatson.com.

Markus Watson:

And if you just go to MarkusWatson.com, you can also find my podcast there.

Markus Watson:

You can find information about my book.

Markus Watson:

You can find all kinds of other stuff there as well.

Markus Watson:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Yeah,

Tim Winders:

very cool.

Tim Winders:

Check out the podcast.

Tim Winders:

That podcast spiritual life and leadership is a great, I think it's a good compliment

Tim Winders:

to what we're doing here, because you are primarily people in the ministry circle

Tim Winders:

and we do a lot with business, but I see emerging truthfully of a lot of that.

Tim Winders:

And I think we don't need to have walls between the

Markus Watson:

That's right.

Tim Winders:

and, you've heard me

Tim Winders:

preach on that.

Tim Winders:

So

Tim Winders:

anyway,

Markus Watson:

That's right.

Tim Winders:

I think the more we reach out and assist and help

Tim Winders:

each other, then there's going to be a lot more Shalom out there.

Tim Winders:

Hey, Markus, we are seek, go create those three words.

Tim Winders:

I'm gonna let you choose one and tell me why seek, go or create,

Tim Winders:

which one do you choose and why?

Markus Watson:

I think I'm gonna go with Seek, because I feel like I have

Markus Watson:

learned a lot, I have sought a lot over the course of my life, but I'm

Markus Watson:

still seeking, I don't know everything in terms of my relationship with God.

Markus Watson:

I've learned a lot about God, but the more you, it's like the more you

Markus Watson:

learn, the more you realize I have so much more to learn about God.

Markus Watson:

So I'm still seeking, I'm still seeking how to best participate with God in

Markus Watson:

the restoration of Shalom in the world, And so I'm always thinking about, I

Markus Watson:

don't want to sound like I'm always like, dissatisfied, but I am seeking.

Markus Watson:

I'm like, okay, Lord, where are you leading now?

Markus Watson:

Where are you leading now?

Markus Watson:

So I go with seek.

Tim Winders:

I go

Tim Winders:

with it too.

Tim Winders:

I like what Paul says.

Tim Winders:

You know what?

Tim Winders:

I've just learned to be content, but I don't feel like Paul was standing still.

Tim Winders:

He was moving forward.

Tim Winders:

And so there's

Tim Winders:

that

Tim Winders:

balance.

Tim Winders:

Markus Watson, thank you for this conversation.

Tim Winders:

And I, like I said at the beginning, I can tell that you are moving

Tim Winders:

in that direction of Shalom.

Tim Winders:

And it's one of the reasons I wanted to reach out.

Tim Winders:

And this was a nice, good, deep conversation that I think will be helpful.

Tim Winders:

Make sure if you've listened in.

Tim Winders:

Go to MarkusWatson.Com.

Tim Winders:

Markus with a K.

Tim Winders:

I spell it with a C too

Tim Winders:

much.

Tim Winders:

I was typing it earlier.

Tim Winders:

go check that out and get all those resources.

Tim Winders:

Definitely sign up for this course on Shalom.

Tim Winders:

I believe it'll be a blessing.

Tim Winders:

I think the world needs more Shalom.

Tim Winders:

And so start with leaders, start with people listening in here.

Tim Winders:

I'm also going to ask you a favor.

Tim Winders:

If you've been listening, share this episode with someone

Tim Winders:

because I think we all needed it.

Tim Winders:

But I also think that you probably know someone else that did.

Tim Winders:

So take a screenshot.

Tim Winders:

If you're on YouTube, just share the link to the videos

Tim Winders:

and clips and things like that.

Tim Winders:

I think it'll be a blessing to people.

Tim Winders:

Thank you for listening to Seek Go Create until next time.

Tim Winders:

We've got new episodes every Monday until next time, continue being

Tim Winders:

all that you were created to be.

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Seek Go Create - The Leadership Journey for Christian Entrepreneurs, Faith-Based Leaders, Purpose-Driven Success, Kingdom Business, Entrepreneurial Mindset, Leadership Development
Seek Go Create - The Leadership Journey for Christian Entrepreneurs, Faith-Based Leaders, Purpose-Driven Success, Kingdom Business, Entrepreneurial Mindset, Leadership Development

About your host

Profile picture for Tim Winders

Tim Winders

Tim Winders is a faith driven executive coach and author with over 40 years of experience in leadership, business, and ministry. Through his personal journey of redefining success, he has gained valuable insights on how to align beliefs with work and lead with purpose. He is committed to helping others do the same, running a coaching business that helps leaders, leadership teams, business owners, and entrepreneurs to align their beliefs with their work and redefine success.

In addition to his coaching business, Tim is also the host of the SeekGoCreate podcast and author of the book Coach: A Story of Success Redefined, which provides guidance for those looking to redefine success and align their beliefs with their work. With his extensive background, unique perspective and strengths in strategic thinking, relationship building, and problem-solving, Tim is well-suited to help clients navigate through difficult times and achieve their goals.