Revelation’s Real Endgame: Renewal, Reconciliation, and the Reign of Christ with Leo De Siqueira

Speaker: 00:00:00

Leo De Siqueira: So this notion

of like, we die and go to heaven

2

: 00:00:02

and live in heaven forever.

3

: 00:00:03

That's not in scripture, by the way.

4

: 00:00:05

You won't find a single verse in the Bible

that says you will die and go to heaven.

5

: 00:00:09

Not one.

6

: 00:00:10

It's quite fascinating.

7

: 00:00:23

Tim Winders: Welcome to Seek, go Create.

8

: 00:00:25

This is episode three of what

we're calling Revelation Revealed

9

: 00:00:30

with my guest Leo d Sequeira.

10

: 00:00:32

And you know, revelation

ends with a final battle.

11

: 00:00:35

We've been talking about Revelation,

and we're gonna be looking at Revelation

12

: 00:00:38

20 through 22 here ends with a final

battle, a dragon, a lake of fire,

13

: 00:00:42

and then something we rarely talk

about, a garden, a city, a wedding.

14

: 00:00:47

So here's some questions

we're gonna dive into.

15

: 00:00:49

Are we in the millennium?

16

: 00:00:51

Is Satan bound or released?

17

: 00:00:53

What's coming next and

what's already here?

18

: 00:00:57

In this final episode, Leo and I are gonna

talk about where we are in the story.

19

: 00:01:01

He wrote about this in his book,

revelation Dawn of Eternity.

20

: 00:01:06

Which we've been going through roughly.

21

: 00:01:08

He's got a lot more detail, his

three-part series on Revelation.

22

: 00:01:12

Highly recommend that you get this.

23

: 00:01:14

He's an author.

24

: 00:01:14

He's just got so many things going

on, but, I appreciate him being here.

25

: 00:01:19

We're just gonna look at where we might

be in relation to all of eternity.

26

: 00:01:23

Just a light topic that we'll

have fun with discussing.

27

: 00:01:26

This is part three of my

conversation with Leo the Sequeira.

28

: 00:01:30

If you've been with us this whole

time, you've seen just how different

29

: 00:01:33

revelation can be when you let context,

language, and Jesus reshape the narrative.

30

: 00:01:39

Today we finish the journey.

31

: 00:01:42

Welcome back, Leo.

32

: 00:01:44

Leo De Siqueira: Happy to be here.

33

: 00:01:45

Tim Winders: We have covered some

stuff and we're kind of powering

34

: 00:01:47

through, trying to separate it

out so people can digest it.

35

: 00:01:51

anything you want to mention about

some things we discussed in the

36

: 00:01:55

previous two episodes before we

dive into Revelation: 2021

37

: 00:02:03

Leo De Siqueira: Just a, quick recap.

38

: 00:02:05

book one is looking at the words of

Jesus, the prophecies of Jesus, the

39

: 00:02:09

context, the first century world,

audience, what would they have heard

40

: 00:02:14

when they heard the words of Jesus?

41

: 00:02:15

The second book, revelation one

to 11, Going through line by line.

42

: 00:02:21

The writings of John up until chapter 11.

43

: 00:02:25

So introducing Jesus as the high priest,

the one who was about to bring about the

44

: 00:02:31

accomplishment of the prophetic words

that he himself uttered years earlier.

45

: 00:02:39

And then we see the

unfolding, the unraveling

46

: 00:02:42

of

47

: 00:02:43

the consequences for.

48

: 00:02:44

The breach of the mosaic covenant, right?

49

: 00:02:47

And all the calamities that befall

the holy land 66 to 70 ad, which

50

: 00:02:54

culminated the destruction of the

temple, the same temple that Jesus

51

: 00:03:00

taught in the same temple where

his his disciples said, Jesus.

52

: 00:03:05

Look at how beautiful and

magnificent these structures are.

53

: 00:03:09

And Jesus said, A time is coming where

not will, not one stone will be left.

54

: 00:03:14

On top of another.

55

: 00:03:16

that is where Revelation starts to

illustrate prophetically what events

56

: 00:03:23

took place historically from 66 to 70 ad.

57

: 00:03:28

Tim Winders: That's good.

58

: 00:03:28

Great, great summary.

59

: 00:03:29

That really helps, if someone's

just jumping in on this episode,

60

: 00:03:33

jump back to the others and

make sure you get the books.

61

: 00:03:37

I gotta tell ya, Leo, it's

very rare for me as I'm reading

62

: 00:03:43

through books or things like that.

63

: 00:03:47

Where I start getting, I'm trying

to think of the right words here.

64

: 00:03:53

Anxious isn't the right word.

65

: 00:03:54

I don't feel a lot of

anxiety about things.

66

: 00:03:57

But in your third book.

67

: 00:04:01

There was an anticipation,

that might be a better word.

68

: 00:04:05

You started teasing a little

bit early on, and I'm gonna use

69

: 00:04:09

the big word of reconciliation.

70

: 00:04:11

You started throwing the word

reconciliation in, and I may

71

: 00:04:14

be getting it off a little bit,

but this is how I, digested the.

72

: 00:04:21

And I started sensing as I was getting

towards the end of Revelation that

73

: 00:04:26

it was going to be a big aha moment

for me that was going to create some

74

: 00:04:31

things with the paradigms that I had

had, and I was correct, by the way.

75

: 00:04:35

It's one of the reasons why when

I kind of finished it, I go, man,

76

: 00:04:38

I'd love to get him on the podcast

just to talk about some of this.

77

: 00:04:43

talk about the word reconciliation

efore we dive into Revelation: 2021

78

: 00:04:50

and 22 and what's really, or what we

believe is going on there, because I

79

: 00:04:55

think that's the bigger message here.

80

: 00:04:58

Is that accurate?

81

: 00:04:59

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah, absolutely.

82

: 00:05:01

As it relates to God and mankind.

83

: 00:05:04

You know, Paul talks about this.

84

: 00:05:05

We've been given the ministry of

reconciliation, God not holding

85

: 00:05:09

their trespasses against them.

86

: 00:05:12

Very, very powerful, right?

87

: 00:05:14

That we've been entrusted with

this ministry of reconciling

88

: 00:05:18

and, and mankind is creation.

89

: 00:05:21

That's a central theme in the God

story throughout the scriptures.

90

: 00:05:27

Secondary not by terms of significance,

but I would say alongside that

91

: 00:05:31

is the theme of restoration.

92

: 00:05:33

restoring creation.

93

: 00:05:36

reconciliation happens between

the people of God and God.

94

: 00:05:40

And restoration happens

with creation itself.

95

: 00:05:43

I mean, it's as evident

as early as Abraham being

96

: 00:05:48

called to the land of Canaan.

97

: 00:05:50

If you'll recall, Canaan was cursed.

98

: 00:05:53

It was a cursed land.

99

: 00:05:55

And isn't it fascinating that

God sends Abraham to a place

100

: 00:05:59

that was cursed in order for it

to become a place of blessing?

101

: 00:06:04

That's thematically what takes

place throughout the history

102

: 00:06:08

of mankind and creation.

103

: 00:06:12

Tim Winders: All right.

104

: 00:06:13

Having, I guess, maybe put that as a

foundation as we move out of Revelation

105

: 00:06:20

19 that we discussed in the last episode.

106

: 00:06:25

Things sort of start looking different

when we get to Revelation 20,

107

: 00:06:30

Leo De Siqueira: Mm-hmm.

108

: 00:06:30

Tim Winders: 21 and 22, but tell us

a little bit of what's going on in

109

: 00:06:37

20 and then we'll look at 21 and 22.

110

: 00:06:40

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

111

: 00:06:41

you know, revelation, we'll say

five, four and five to 11 is, one

112

: 00:06:46

narrative thrust, culminating in

the destruction of the temple.

113

: 00:06:52

And then all of a sudden revelation

12 to 19 is a secondary narrative

114

: 00:06:57

thrust from a different vantage point.

115

: 00:07:01

Also taking us to the

destruction of the temple.

116

: 00:07:04

So if you wanted to have a really

simplistic breakdown of the book

117

: 00:07:08

of Revelation, you can think to

yourself four and five to 11 is

118

: 00:07:12

one thrust with a climactic event

parallel to it, not sequentially.

119

: 00:07:20

It's not like, and then in the

story, no, goes back again.

120

: 00:07:24

And this is Revelation 12, all the

way to 19 and has that same narrative

121

: 00:07:29

thrust toward a climactic event.

122

: 00:07:33

Then we get into Revelation 20, and

the analogy that I used when I was

123

: 00:07:38

writing is we go from John having

sort of like a magnifying glass.

124

: 00:07:48

he, he's looking at things that

are close the descriptions are

125

: 00:07:52

very vivid of these events, right?

126

: 00:07:55

It's like the number of soldiers.

127

: 00:07:58

That are coming and he's seeing

like vessels and it's, it's very

128

: 00:08:02

vivid, very descriptive language.

129

: 00:08:05

lots and lots of prophetic footnotes.

130

: 00:08:07

The hyperlinks going back to old Covenant.

131

: 00:08:11

it's so rich and dense talking about

this event that was before him.

132

: 00:08:17

And then it's like in Revelation

20, John puts down the magnifying

133

: 00:08:23

glass and he's given binoculars.

134

: 00:08:27

I am a hunter.

135

: 00:08:28

I use binoculars.

136

: 00:08:29

And one thing that's very interesting

with binoculars, it's like you're

137

: 00:08:33

looking very far away and you see,

you see things in general, but

138

: 00:08:41

you're not seeing the minute details.

139

: 00:08:45

So you, you can kind of say like, yeah,

you know that deer is moving from here

140

: 00:08:48

to there, or I see some brush there.

141

: 00:08:51

I can't really give you much more than

that when something's 300 yards away.

142

: 00:08:57

And that's where we see even just

from a, literary perspective,

143

: 00:09:03

all of a sudden we go from hyper

detail to John looking forward.

144

: 00:09:10

And this is what begins to

happen in Revelation 20.

145

: 00:09:14

And he starts dropping one liners

that are cataclysmic events.

146

: 00:09:23

Where are the details, John?

147

: 00:09:26

Where's the number of people?

148

: 00:09:28

Like not there, right?

149

: 00:09:31

So he's starting to look ahead and

so you have, the releasing of Satan,

150

: 00:09:36

which, you know, as a teaser, that's

the time that we're in right now.

151

: 00:09:40

You have, the holy city being surrounded.

152

: 00:09:42

You have a fire of God that consumes.

153

: 00:09:46

Right.

154

: 00:09:46

You have this great resurrection, this

throne room experience, but it's one

155

: 00:09:51

verse, one verse, one verse moving on,

and you're like, John, I need more detail.

156

: 00:09:59

he is like, this is all I can

see through the binoculars.

157

: 00:10:05

Tim Winders: All, all the

armies, all the world gathers.

158

: 00:10:09

And then there's one sentence that says.

159

: 00:10:14

Poof.

160

: 00:10:15

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

161

: 00:10:15

Tim Winders: It's just like done

162

: 00:10:19

and it's like, wait.

163

: 00:10:20

Leo De Siqueira: 19,

164

: 00:10:22

Tim Winders: Yeah.

165

: 00:10:23

Leo De Siqueira: when, the Harlett falls,

which is Jerusalem, apostate Jerusalem,

166

: 00:10:26

when the Harlett falls, it's like just.

167

: 00:10:31

Old Testament quote, old

Testament quote, oak, right?

168

: 00:10:34

It's like chapters of one war and then

one verse of another war, which by the

169

: 00:10:43

way, features many more people like.

170

: 00:10:46

We're chapter 17, 18,

19 is isolated, right?

171

: 00:10:51

It's the Holy Land Jerusalem.

172

: 00:10:54

You get three chapters worth of

description and then, oh, but

173

: 00:10:57

for humanity, you get one verse.

174

: 00:11:02

Tim Winders: Alright, so something

that comes up often, especially in

175

: 00:11:05

some other dispensational, or I call

it the rapture theory, is that we're

176

: 00:11:10

all working towards being part of

this millennial reign thousand years.

177

: 00:11:15

Where we're gonna reign with Jesus

178

: 00:11:18

Leo De Siqueira: Mm-hmm.

179

: 00:11:21

Tim Winders: is the millennial reign,

past, present, or future, in your opinion,

180

: 00:11:27

in your thoughts, in your studies.

181

: 00:11:29

Leo De Siqueira: It is current.

182

: 00:11:30

we're in it.

183

: 00:11:31

Right now.

184

: 00:11:31

It's current.

185

: 00:11:33

Yeah.

186

: 00:11:34

And you know that dispensational

thinking again, coming out of the, the.

187

: 00:11:39

Scientific revolution, the age

of enlightenment, the really poor

188

: 00:11:43

approach to scripture, right line by

line, as opposed to a broad corpus.

189

: 00:11:48

you also have the cessationist

mindset where there's no power,

190

: 00:11:52

there's no gifts of the spirit.

191

: 00:11:54

God isn't moving.

192

: 00:11:55

Today, that all died with the apostles.

193

: 00:11:57

That whole heresy was also

prevalent in and around that time.

194

: 00:12:03

To think that you're in a golden

age, the age of Messiah, you'd

195

: 00:12:08

have to accept the fact that you'd

also have the working of the Holy

196

: 00:12:12

Spirit, and the power of the gospel,

197

: 00:12:16

Which Paul alludes to, right?

198

: 00:12:17

It didn't come with you in

eloquence of speech, but with power.

199

: 00:12:23

Well, if you don't believe that

that exists, you're gonna project

200

: 00:12:27

all the good stuff to the future.

201

: 00:12:30

So really what they're saying is

if the millenniums in the future

202

: 00:12:34

we're like in a sort of a purgatory

intermediate state, and it's, it's

203

: 00:12:40

blasphemous in a lot of ways, What,

what's the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

204

: 00:12:44

It's like, here's the works of God.

205

: 00:12:45

And I'm saying, no, I, I'm like

literally shutting down the works of God.

206

: 00:12:51

Now, I'm, I'm, I'm being

a little facetious.

207

: 00:12:54

I'm not making theological

statements right now, but I'm just

208

: 00:12:56

saying like, this is insanity.

209

: 00:12:59

In a lot of ways, right?

210

: 00:13:02

But we know emphatically that

the kingdom of God is at hand.

211

: 00:13:06

I mean, to quote Jesus, right?

212

: 00:13:09

And the kingdom of God is like a mustard

seed, and so we're, thankfully we've seen

213

: 00:13:16

the blossoming and the growth of that.

214

: 00:13:19

And so part of this too is to

like celebrate growth of our

215

: 00:13:24

faith, the growth of the gospel

going to the ends of the earth.

216

: 00:13:28

and looking at times in the past

where missionary movements were so

217

: 00:13:34

prevalent and people going to unreached

people groups, The Bible being

218

: 00:13:39

translated in countless languages.

219

: 00:13:40

I mean, that's all part of our story.

220

: 00:13:42

This is all part of what Jesus prophesied.

221

: 00:13:44

And so all that to say is we are

most certainly in whether you want

222

: 00:13:48

to call it the thousand year rain,

which is figurative, by the way, as

223

: 00:13:52

most numbers in Revelation were right.

224

: 00:13:56

Figurative.

225

: 00:13:57

And you know, I, I even mentioned this

a little bit too in my third book that

226

: 00:14:02

the significance of the thousand years

of Jesus, who is the second Adam, is

227

: 00:14:08

that it's the reversal of the thousand

years of life that Adam should have had.

228

: 00:14:13

Right?

229

: 00:14:14

He, he died 30 years shy of that.

230

: 00:14:18

But going from the first Adam.

231

: 00:14:22

In that thousand year period,

or figuratively Christ thousand

232

: 00:14:26

year period as the new Adam, like

there's a lot of symbolism in that

233

: 00:14:30

golden age that we're in right now.

234

: 00:14:33

Tim Winders: Right.

235

: 00:14:33

And so one of the things that we

like to do is we like to have.

236

: 00:14:39

The linear timeframe where there's

like a thousand year millennial reign

237

: 00:14:44

Satan is released for a short period of

time, which, you know, we could discuss

238

: 00:14:48

what a short period of time mean,

stop, and then something else happens.

239

: 00:14:52

I was recently reading through, it

might've been just this week, and

240

: 00:14:55

I recognize that possibly this is

where I think we could go into this.

241

: 00:15:02

Satan has been released.

242

: 00:15:06

The millennial reign is still ongoing.

243

: 00:15:09

They're concurrent.

244

: 00:15:10

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

245

: 00:15:11

Tim Winders: I don't know what your

thoughts are on that, but I know you

246

: 00:15:13

and I, I think maybe your book was

the first time that I started having

247

: 00:15:17

the seed planted of the Satan being

released for a short period of time.

248

: 00:15:22

So talk about those timeframes and

then that'll get us into the, the

249

: 00:15:28

Satan being released discussion,

which I would love to have.

250

: 00:15:32

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah, I mean,

first epic seasons overlap, right?

251

: 00:15:36

And so we know this, for

instance, when the Mosaic Age

252

: 00:15:40

and the Messianic age overlapped.

253

: 00:15:42

And we also know that, there was a

short season at the end of the Mosaic

254

: 00:15:47

age where Satan wreaked havoc as well.

255

: 00:15:51

And so that is illustrated both in

Revelation 12, where you have the

256

: 00:15:55

dragon pursuing the woman, right?

257

: 00:15:57

and that whole drama that happens

in Revelation 12 is illustrating

258

: 00:16:01

the first short season that

Satan had before being bound.

259

: 00:16:07

Look at when Jesus is tempted by Satan.

260

: 00:16:10

Right What was the third

and final temptation?

261

: 00:16:13

I will grant you all the kingdoms of the

world because they have been given to me.

262

: 00:16:18

We understand that Satan used facts

in order to try to entice Jesus.

263

: 00:16:24

There wasn't a lie in the

words of Satan per se.

264

: 00:16:27

It was a misuse, of facts, right?

265

: 00:16:30

How did he win kingdom of the Earth?

266

: 00:16:33

Well, he usurped them all

the way back in the garden.

267

: 00:16:36

what had been entrusted to us.

268

: 00:16:37

He usurped and so in fact,

yes, the kingdoms of the world

269

: 00:16:41

were his to give to Jesus.

270

: 00:16:43

The short season was coming to an end,

and so there was a binding of Satan

271

: 00:16:49

at the end of the mosaic age, right?

272

: 00:16:52

then, he wreaked havoc, And that's why

you have the slaughtering of infants.

273

: 00:16:57

Trying to find Jesus to be one of

those infants, the mass persecution

274

: 00:17:01

against the early Christians.

275

: 00:17:02

That whole thing.

276

: 00:17:03

And then all of a sudden,

and again, this is a mystery.

277

: 00:17:05

Well, how does this work and why?

278

: 00:17:07

Why was he bound?

279

: 00:17:08

Then only to be released.

280

: 00:17:10

Now, this is where I say we have

to be comfortable with mystery,

281

: 00:17:14

leo-de-siqueira_1_08-16-2025_100129: which

282

: 00:17:14

Leo De Siqueira: is what I,

you know, it's just humility.

283

: 00:17:17

understanding like, God, I don't

really understand, but I trust you.

284

: 00:17:22

That's where we incorporate

mystery into our theology.

285

: 00:17:25

I don't understand, but I trust

you and I trust in your goodness

286

: 00:17:29

to work all things together for

the good of those who love you.

287

: 00:17:34

For whatever reason, at the end of the

Messianic age, Satan is given legal

288

: 00:17:40

permission to bring mass deception.

289

: 00:17:42

Again, I argue in my third book that.

290

: 00:17:48

That has already been in place, at

least for the past a hundred years.

291

: 00:17:55

And I just, you know, for me it was

just looking at the absurdity of

292

: 00:17:59

events that we've experienced, that

we've normalized in a lot of ways.

293

: 00:18:03

going all the way back to, you know,

the genocides of Arminian Christians

294

: 00:18:09

who were the first people group

declare Christianity to be the.

295

: 00:18:13

Religion of their kingdom, going

back home, you know,: 1900

296

: 00:18:18

It's quite remarkable.

297

: 00:18:20

and then you have, of course,

the Jewish Holocaust, genocide

298

: 00:18:24

of infants today, right?

299

: 00:18:26

That happens with unborn children.

300

: 00:18:29

world wars, no big deal.

301

: 00:18:32

The entire planet going to war.

302

: 00:18:34

I mean, when has that ever happened?

303

: 00:18:38

The rise of the pers of

persecution of Christians.

304

: 00:18:40

I mean, we take Christian persecution

for granted today, but historically,

305

: 00:18:48

the measure of persecution that has

been experienced in the last a hundred

306

: 00:18:52

years is unprecedented other than

the first 300 years of the church.

307

: 00:18:58

I find that all to be quite fascinating.

308

: 00:19:00

Tim Winders: one thing that, I

think you and I discussed when we

309

: 00:19:02

talked briefly a few weeks ago.

310

: 00:19:05

I think we look at those physical

manifestations of horrible things, but

311

: 00:19:13

there were a handful of events that

occurred like in the 18 hundreds that,

312

: 00:19:18

you know, we talk about the tragedy

of people taking their eyes off Jesus,

313

: 00:19:21

being deceived from the full gospel.

314

: 00:19:23

I believe that Darby is that the whole

ng up of this rapture theory,: 1830

315

: 00:19:31

or so, I believe that Joseph Smith's

visions of Mormon and things like that.

316

: 00:19:37

And then also, Darwin,

you know, the evolution.

317

: 00:19:41

I mean, there may be others,

but I mean, is, is that.

318

: 00:19:45

Into this also.

319

: 00:19:46

I may have seen some of those

in your book, to me, that

320

: 00:19:48

seems like huge deceptions

321

: 00:19:52

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

322

: 00:19:52

Tim Winders: that have led to a

lot of what we're talking about.

323

: 00:19:55

Leo De Siqueira: yeah.

324

: 00:19:55

I mean, you have the

erosion of belief and faith.

325

: 00:19:58

how do you get, from a handful of

denominations to hundreds, and now

326

: 00:20:03

I think we're even in the thousands.

327

: 00:20:04

I mean, this is all part.

328

: 00:20:07

this deception that's in play.

329

: 00:20:10

Then you have, you know, what I talked

to is like physical destruction, Going

330

: 00:20:16

after the bodies, humans going after

life, and all the different ways that

331

: 00:20:21

we've experienced death and destruction

in massacre, in the last 150 years.

332

: 00:20:27

then the third thing now is,

what is the enemy going after?

333

: 00:20:29

It's going after the

mind, the soul identity.

334

: 00:20:33

So now the, the, the warfare and the

tactics of the enemy is no longer to get

335

: 00:20:37

people to slaughter themselves physically.

336

: 00:20:39

no longer to even twist and

distort scripture and belief.

337

: 00:20:43

That's all already in place.

338

: 00:20:45

Now.

339

: 00:20:45

It's, you know, who am I, what am I?

340

: 00:20:49

And, and, and that's the, the

deception that's at place.

341

: 00:20:52

So it's like, it's every, it's like faith.

342

: 00:20:55

It's the, it's the body and then

it's the soul, the identity.

343

: 00:21:00

All of that is what he's been going after.

344

: 00:21:04

Tim Winders: Yeah.

345

: 00:21:05

And one of the things that we don't

want to do is do what some other

346

: 00:21:10

belief systems try to do, which is

set timelines and things like that,

347

: 00:21:15

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

348

: 00:21:15

Tim Winders: As we slide into Revelation

20 and or 21 and 22, as we leave 20,

349

: 00:21:21

and let's just say that we are in

that time of Satan being released,

350

: 00:21:25

which I am, I'm in agreement with you.

351

: 00:21:26

I think I'm about at 85% on that

about right now, which might

352

: 00:21:32

be about the most I can get to.

353

: 00:21:34

Truthfully.

354

: 00:21:34

I don't know if I could get

verification beyond that.

355

: 00:21:37

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

356

: 00:21:38

Tim Winders: 21 and 22.

357

: 00:21:40

Let's finish up with this.

358

: 00:21:42

What are we looking at there?

359

: 00:21:43

What is the hope, the hopeful eschatology?

360

: 00:21:47

I love the term you use.

361

: 00:21:49

It's not necessarily doom and gloom.

362

: 00:21:51

There is some, you know, things being

thrown in the lake of fire there

363

: 00:21:54

earlier and things like that, but

it's not as if there's this mass.

364

: 00:22:00

Destruction it is.

365

: 00:22:01

It is restoration and reconciliation.

366

: 00:22:05

Let's finish giving people the hope of

what we see at the end of Revelation.

367

: 00:22:10

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

368

: 00:22:12

So what scripture tells us is some ways

straightforward, in other ways, enigmatic.

369

: 00:22:20

So what do we know from Revelation

21 and 22, and then at Ian, let's

370

: 00:22:25

say like first Corinthians 15, right?

371

: 00:22:28

Um, I mean even like Matthew 28, like

go into all the world and preach.

372

: 00:22:34

It's like there's like all of these

things are culminating, but what we know

373

: 00:22:38

is that there is a great resurrection.

374

: 00:22:40

Everybody, whoever died

is brought back to life.

375

: 00:22:44

We know that all stand before the throne

of God, and then we know that heaven and

376

: 00:22:49

earth is made new and we dwell with God

on a renewed earth in renewed bodies.

377

: 00:23:00

So that's all very fascinating.

378

: 00:23:02

So this notion of like, we die and go

to heaven and live in heaven forever.

379

: 00:23:05

That's not in scripture, by the way.

380

: 00:23:07

You won't find a single verse in the Bible

that says you will die and go to heaven.

381

: 00:23:11

Not one.

382

: 00:23:12

It's quite fascinating.

383

: 00:23:15

But what we do have is a renewal of

the cosmos, right A return to Eden.

384

: 00:23:22

But not just the Eden of Old, it's

a new Eden, it's an enhanced Eden.

385

: 00:23:26

Everything is better.

386

: 00:23:27

Everything is more amazing, and we

in the image of Christ, in renewed

387

: 00:23:34

bodies, walk with Christ on this earth.

388

: 00:23:37

It's incredible.

389

: 00:23:40

But then there's very

enigmatic things as well.

390

: 00:23:43

So for instance, the Sea of Fire

and brimstone is very enigmatic.

391

: 00:23:46

What is it?

392

: 00:23:48

How is it that in, you know, revelation

and 22, you have people, so again,

393

: 00:23:59

Jerusalem, it's not a physical building,

it's a corpus of people, right?

394

: 00:24:05

The new Jerusalem is representing

people that have been prepared.

395

: 00:24:09

So you have the people of God

with God, and then all of a sudden

396

: 00:24:14

there's other people, kings.

397

: 00:24:18

Coming in through the gates with gifts.

398

: 00:24:21

Who are these guys?

399

: 00:24:24

How were they not descending

the bride prepared at first?

400

: 00:24:32

How do you, where are they coming from?

401

: 00:24:36

Who's letting them in?

402

: 00:24:39

Fascinating stuff.

403

: 00:24:40

We have to wrestle with these things,

and so I love to wrestle with those

404

: 00:24:45

things and I, and I'm like, well.

405

: 00:24:47

What is all this stuff?

406

: 00:24:49

first thing that I wrestled

with was the Sea of Fire and

407

: 00:24:53

linguistically and hermeneutically.

408

: 00:24:55

It took me back to Ezekiel, and

Ezekiel sees The Dead Sea, which

409

: 00:25:02

was a symbol of the sea of fire.

410

: 00:25:05

And in Ezekiel, 47 or 48,

he sees it being renewed.

411

: 00:25:15

Much like Revelation 22

and it's the waters of God.

412

: 00:25:20

Go from the temple, right?

413

: 00:25:23

Zeel 47, the waters of

God go from the temple.

414

: 00:25:25

It crosses the aba, which is

the wilderness with Jesus was

415

: 00:25:29

tried It cascades over the Jordan

Riff Valley into the Dead Sea.

416

: 00:25:35

And we know that the Dead Sea is,

is like bitumen, spewed out of it.

417

: 00:25:43

there's accounts of it

being fire out of it.

418

: 00:25:47

We know that that's the region where,

you know, the cities that lot lived

419

: 00:25:51

in Sodom and Gomorrah and there

was three other cities, they're

420

: 00:25:55

all said to be at the bottom of the

Dead Sea, right at the time of lot.

421

: 00:26:01

this is Ezekiel 16.

422

: 00:26:03

At the time of lot, that whole region

was like the Garden of Eden, and this is

423

: 00:26:08

actually going back to Abraham and a lot.

424

: 00:26:09

It says when Lot looked at,

at that region, it said it was

425

: 00:26:13

like the garden of the Lord.

426

: 00:26:15

other words, the Sodom and Gamora Dead

Sea area was like a Garden of Eden.

427

: 00:26:20

And obviously it was not that

until, and this is Ezekiel 16.

428

: 00:26:26

Ezekiel 47, that whole area is restored.

429

: 00:26:29

And here's something fascinating.

430

: 00:26:30

Ezekiel 16, he talks about the

fact that Jerusalem goes off to

431

: 00:26:36

be with other and kingdoms breaks

God's heart, becomes a harlet.

432

: 00:26:43

And then he talks about

restoring Jerusalem.

433

: 00:26:45

And then he says, and in the same way

that I'm gonna restore you Jerusalem, I'm

434

: 00:26:48

gonna restore Sodom And Gomorrah powerful.

435

: 00:26:53

And then you go to e zko 47.

436

: 00:26:57

That place where Saddo Ma Gomorrah

was, that was like the Garden

437

: 00:26:59

of Eden buried in in the Dead

Sea, the sea of fire in bitumen.

438

: 00:27:04

What is John C?

439

: 00:27:05

He says, the rivers of God flowing into

it and the waters become of life the

440

: 00:27:12

trees are for the healing of the nations.

441

: 00:27:16

echoes that in Revelation.

442

: 00:27:19

It's incredible stuff.

443

: 00:27:20

And so what is the sea of

fire that John sees right?

444

: 00:27:26

In Revelation 20 unto what?

445

: 00:27:30

Now somebody might say, well

that sounds very universalistic.

446

: 00:27:35

Let's set aside our labels.

447

: 00:27:37

What is the purpose of fire?

448

: 00:27:40

What is the purpose of refining?

449

: 00:27:43

Right?

450

: 00:27:43

He will come as the refiner

fire and the laundry soap.

451

: 00:27:47

So the question is, if he

comes to refine his fire

452

: 00:27:53

to cleanse the soap.

453

: 00:27:56

What is the intent?

454

: 00:27:59

Is it to kill and destroy you?

455

: 00:28:00

Is it to torture you or is it

to extract from you all that

456

: 00:28:06

you were never created to be?

457

: 00:28:08

Is it to remove from you every

trace and evidence of Adam so

458

: 00:28:13

that you can be born again?

459

: 00:28:16

the new Adam, right, which is our call.

460

: 00:28:20

I propose these as questions and I

invite the leader, the reader, to

461

: 00:28:24

journey with God in pursuing the answers

because W wisdom is held in tension.

462

: 00:28:32

so I do believe that in the afterlife,

let's say, you know, you take, like

463

: 00:28:37

everybody uses Hitler as the example,

so I'll use Hitler as the example.

464

: 00:28:40

You know, Hitler dies and now what?

465

: 00:28:43

I think there is a painful process.

466

: 00:28:44

So we, we know this from

Luke 15 Lazarus, right?

467

: 00:28:49

There's this painful process.

468

: 00:28:51

But what's fascinating is, and by the

way, Lazarus was a religious leader

469

: 00:28:56

because the parable begins with Jesus

talking to religious yearly leaders.

470

: 00:29:00

the great irony of, Luke 15 is

that the religious leader who's

471

: 00:29:06

accusing Jesus saying, you hang

it with sinners, you're no good.

472

: 00:29:09

She's like, actually, here's what

it's gonna look like for you.

473

: 00:29:12

And then he tells his parable.

474

: 00:29:14

But the incredible thing is that Lazarus

comes to this place of repentance when

475

: 00:29:20

he is in that place of torment, he

realizes his own ignorance he is like,

476

: 00:29:26

I'm done for at least save my kinsman.

477

: 00:29:30

And of course, we know from one

Peter three and one Peter four.

478

: 00:29:34

It says that the gospel was preached

to those who are dead, right?

479

: 00:29:39

It says that Jesus descended.

480

: 00:29:41

The Aramaic says into Sheel, the

Greek says prison, but it he Jesus

481

: 00:29:46

descended into the realm of the

dead to preach to those even there.

482

: 00:29:49

This is one, Peter three, one Peter

four, therefore one Peter four.

483

: 00:29:56

Gospel is preached to those even

who are dead, so that in the flesh

484

: 00:30:00

they might die, but in the spirit

they might be made alive unto God.

485

: 00:30:05

There goes your soteriology

that you grew up with, right?

486

: 00:30:10

and this is why scripture has to be read

as a corpus, not isolated verses you gotta

487

: 00:30:15

put all this stuff together from Ezekiel

the parables of Jesus, to the writings

488

: 00:30:21

and the gospels, to John's vision.

489

: 00:30:23

You gotta put it all together.

490

: 00:30:25

'cause they're all seeing

glimpses of something greater.

491

: 00:30:30

Tim Winders: Yeah.

492

: 00:30:30

The incredible thing, and I know

we need to wrap up here, but the

493

: 00:30:33

incredible thing to me as I think about

it is I realize how many people have.

494

: 00:30:43

only two choices, heaven or hell

and I think that messes with

495

: 00:30:48

people when we start getting to

, you know,: 2021

496

: 00:30:54

Because if you look at, I think you

even brought it up in your book,

497

: 00:30:57

fire and brimstone is more purifying.

498

: 00:31:00

It's not destructive.

499

: 00:31:01

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

500

: 00:31:02

Tim Winders: And I think it's Colossians,

I may not get the scripture right

501

: 00:31:05

here, but you know that all things.

502

: 00:31:08

All things are being reconciled

503

: 00:31:10

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

504

: 00:31:10

Tim Winders: Christ that have been created

and all that, which this is gonna mess

505

: 00:31:14

with people, which includes the Hitlers.

506

: 00:31:18

And the Satans and the others.

507

: 00:31:20

Now, you know, their, their

path could be a painful path.

508

: 00:31:24

I'm not saying it's it's easy

peasy or anything like that, but,

509

: 00:31:28

so let, let's finish with this.

510

: 00:31:30

I think there's a lot of fear out there,

Leo, and one of the things that I believe

511

: 00:31:38

we should see as we read this is hope.

512

: 00:31:42

Finish up with just a short message

of the hope that we have, and we

513

: 00:31:48

will put a period or an exclamation

point on this three part series.

514

: 00:31:53

Tell us about hope.

515

: 00:31:54

The hope that we have from Revelation.

516

: 00:31:57

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

517

: 00:31:58

You know, it's fix your eyes on Jesus.

518

: 00:32:02

Whatever you focus on, you magnify.

519

: 00:32:04

And if we're focusing on what the

enemy is doing, we will magnify the

520

: 00:32:10

enemy and we will be filled with fear.

521

: 00:32:13

There is no question on that

revelation is to magnify

522

: 00:32:18

sovereignty of Jesus Christ as Lord.

523

: 00:32:23

But I would suggest that if you're

spending just in Revelation, you're doing

524

: 00:32:31

yourself a disservice because again,

we talk about the corpus of scripture.

525

: 00:32:35

So I'll take you back to the Isaiah and

I'll say to the increase of his government

526

: 00:32:39

and of his peace, there will be no end.

527

: 00:32:43

Right.

528

: 00:32:43

Like we have to have the God

vision of the story of humanity,

529

: 00:32:52

that he is seated on the throne.

530

: 00:32:55

He is before all things, and by him,

all things are held together, right?

531

: 00:33:01

He's the express image

of the invisible God.

532

: 00:33:05

One Corinthians 15 says, talking of Jesus.

533

: 00:33:09

He must continually reign until he has

placed all enemies beneath his feet.

534

: 00:33:14

And the final enemy to

be defeated is death.

535

: 00:33:17

So where is my vision?

536

: 00:33:19

Where is my focus?

537

: 00:33:21

Fix your eyes on Jesus, not on the enemy.

538

: 00:33:24

That is the bait of the

enemies to get you to focus.

539

: 00:33:28

On what he is up to.

540

: 00:33:30

So the enemy's got all the flashcards,

all the flashing lights say, Hey, look

541

: 00:33:34

at here, look at here, look at here.

542

: 00:33:36

And Christians just zero in

on that hook, line and sinker.

543

: 00:33:39

And it's conspiracy theories and

it's what the government's doing

544

: 00:33:42

and it's what Israel's doing and

what's happening, what Satan's, and

545

: 00:33:45

you can live in that world so much.

546

: 00:33:49

And Jesus on the throne is

over there still raining.

547

: 00:33:54

His peace is available to you, but

if you turn your attention and your

548

: 00:33:57

affection away from that, you actually

come out of the grace, that peace.

549

: 00:34:03

And so my invitation to anybody

is be mindful of revelation, be

550

: 00:34:10

studious of revelation, and understand

it to settle teaching, to settle

551

: 00:34:16

distortion of truth in your soul.

552

: 00:34:20

But at all times, you're doing from

this, from this place of being anchored

553

: 00:34:25

and rooted, grounded in the fact

that Jesus Christ continually reigns.

554

: 00:34:32

He is preeminent, and gospel of

the kingdom will be preached.

555

: 00:34:38

Every knee will bow, every tongue

will confess that he is Lord.

556

: 00:34:43

mean, the stuff that we sing at Christmas,

I wish we would sing year round.

557

: 00:34:47

That's our best theology.

558

: 00:34:48

Christmas and Easter.

559

: 00:34:50

Those shouldn't be saved

for those occasions.

560

: 00:34:52

Those should be the norm because that

is what we're rooting ourselves in.

561

: 00:34:57

He is Lord, he is king.

562

: 00:34:59

He is established.

563

: 00:35:01

he wins any hand that he has dealt.

564

: 00:35:03

He there is no such thing

as defeat in his economy.

565

: 00:35:07

So I'm either in that

or I'm being deceived.

566

: 00:35:16

Tim Winders: So good.

567

: 00:35:16

Thank you, Leo.

568

: 00:35:18

If this series has stirred something

in you, this episode, or the last

569

: 00:35:22

two, maybe shaken some assumptions or

stirred new hope, that's a good thing.

570

: 00:35:28

The next step I recommend

you do is get Leo's books.

571

: 00:35:32

They had significant impact on me.

572

: 00:35:35

This is part three.

573

: 00:35:36

Revelation dawn of eternity.

574

: 00:35:38

I think I'm getting it to where it

can be seen in the camera there.

575

: 00:35:42

Great, great resources to

continue this journey and I

576

: 00:35:47

believe we're all on a journey.

577

: 00:35:48

I think Leo would admit he's on a journey.

578

: 00:35:50

I'm on a journey and we are

just continuing that, just to.

579

: 00:35:54

Push that deception out that he talked

about and, understand more truth.

580

: 00:35:59

Leo, I appreciate you.

581

: 00:36:00

Thank you so much.

582

: 00:36:01

maybe we can do this again sometime

'cause I could kinda like you, I could

583

: 00:36:05

talk about this stuff for days thank

you all for listening in on this.

584

: 00:36:09

This has been quite the journey.

585

: 00:36:10

I'm hopeful that these three

episodes with Leo and others that

586

: 00:36:14

we've been doing are helpful.

587

: 00:36:16

Until next time, thank you

for joining us here at Seek.

588

: 00:36:20

Go Create.