Deconstruction, Faith, and the Modern Church: Scot McKnight on Invisible Jesus

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Every person who goes to a church should walk away saying, when

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I was there today, I saw Jesus.

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They should not walk away saying that's a great pastor.

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Or, that's a beautiful piece of music.

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Those things are all fine to say, but if they don't, if they come away

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and they did not encounter Jesus, they've, the church has failed.

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So yeah, there's one place, one person to go to, it's Jesus.

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Um, uh,

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In a world where many are deconstructing their faith, what can we learn from

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studying the causes rather than judging or just ignoring the issue?

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Listen as we answer this question and more with Scott McKnight,

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a New Testament professor and prolific author of over 90 books.

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His latest book, Invisible Jesus, a book about leaving the

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church and looking for Christ.

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Co authored with Tommy Phillips, tackles the deconstruction movement

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head on, viewing it not as a crisis, but as a prophetic movement that

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urges a return to a Jesus first faith.

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Scott, welcome to Seek Go Create.

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thank you very much for this invitation.

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It's good to be with you.

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good to have you here too, Scott.

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I just finished reading Invisible Jesus really just about 30 minutes ago.

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It poked at me some, but, we'll talk about that in a little while.

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then I read Revelation for the rest of us a few weeks ago.

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we're gonna have fun tying some things together, my first question, I'm gonna let

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you Pick which question is my first one.

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Scott, I used to ask the question, what do you do as sort of an icebreaker

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and get started, I've recently started giving people the choice of, would

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you rather answer the question, what do you do or who are you?

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Which question would you prefer to be the first question?

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Well, I hope that everybody would want to answer who are you?

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I'm a follower of Jesus.

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I'm a husband.

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I'm a father.

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I'm a teacher.

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mostly I am someone who, is indwelt by the spirit.

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And I am in Christ, and I've just been reading 1 John, and how we are

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in God, and God is in us, and we are in Christ, and Christ is in us, and

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we are in the Spirit, and the Spirit is in us, and love is in us, etc.

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So that's, who I think I am.

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That's good and you are correct that most people are leaning

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towards answering that Who are you?

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But I think it takes some people back depending on business people and

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Yeah,

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to giving a

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yeah.

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So I appreciate that and thanks for answering that

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I know i've got a Boatload of questions here and I know we're

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sort of limited to time, but I think I would love to start with asking

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for a few definitions from you.

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the first definition kind of revolves around the book Invisible

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Jesus that, just recently released as the time we're, recording this.

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and the big word that you're using there is the word deconstruction.

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And my observation, Scott, is that there, there's some people throwing that

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word around in a lot of different ways.

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So how do you define deconstruction or how do we want to frame it for

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the conversation we're going to have?

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In this book, deconstruction refers to shedding elements of a local church's

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faith, or a denomination's faith.

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that were not important to Jesus.

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we don't use it in the classic philosophical sense that it's the self

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destructive dimensions of power claims.

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That can be unmasked by unraveling it by chasing down its own assumptions.

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We're using it for the process that believers, Christians, are using

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to shed elements that they are finding in a church that they think

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are just not important to Jesus.

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So, that's what we mean by it.

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on perspective, is it a good word or a bad word?

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for us, you know, I don't want to get into the debate.

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With deconstructors or critics of deconstructors of whether it's a good

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term or a bad term because for us it's a real term It's it's a term people are

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using for a process of shedding elements of the faith so they can reconstruct

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a healthier Jesus shaped faith.

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So for us, it's a term that we use that we want to listen to the people

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who use this term for themselves to find out what's going on in the

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church and with these people's faith.

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Seems to have, there seems to be some gasoline that's been poured on this fire

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recently, or is that just our observation?

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I think you're right.

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I think it's a fresh, expression of a term.

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I was talking to an Old Testament scholar who said, well, the prophets

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were the original deconstructors.

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And then Tommy often says, Jesus was a deconstructor.

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And others would say, John in the book of Revelation is a deconstructor

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I think that this is true.

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And the Reformation is an ultimate deconstruction movement.

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it launched Reformanda Semper, Semper Reformanda, always reforming.

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And if we really believe that the church constantly has to go back to scripture

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to see its faithfulness, and if we really believe the church is honest and fair,

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it will always find dimensions of the faith that need to be shed so the church

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should always be deconstructing, but there's a little bit of a trend going

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on right now with this term, and it pertains to a certain group of people.

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Now, some people are using it for those who completely walk away from the faith.

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But our study, we had access to a proprietary study that discovered

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that 86 percent of people who use the word deconstruction for

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themselves remain in the church.

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So it's not, you know, We're concerned with that 86%.

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The 14 percent I think would be dealt with in a different way, but we have

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found the voices of the Deconstructors to be prophetic They're telling us

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about some things going on in the church that we need to listen to.

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right?

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So what's interesting for me, Scott, is that I didn't grow up.

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In or around the church, I got saved at 28 years old is what many would say

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would be my, the date, but I did grow up in the southern US, Bible belt culture

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where people pretty much thought just by association, they were Christians, So, and

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I was also saved in a business setting.

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So I've actually realized that I just have never liked a lot of we

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will call the church was doing.

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I just, and I'm not anti church, but I was.

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Probably more hypercritical or I just like going, what are they doing here?

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What are they talking about?

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Because it doesn't fit with some things I'm looking for.

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And so kind of my next, maybe a definition question that kind of came to my mind as

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I was reading through book over the last few days is, We hear a lot of people,

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you know, Dallas Willards and people like that talk about spiritual formation.

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A lot of people in theology schools and things like that.

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And then we have deconstruction as y'all talk about it in your book.

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And to me, From my journey, it seems like there's a relationship there,

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but could you compare and contrast spiritual formation, people just going

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through their journey to get closer to Christ or get closer to where they need

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to be, and then deconstruction where people are kind of walking away from a

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church world to get closer to Christ?

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Closer to Christ if I if I worded any of that wrong, correct me But is there

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any relation between those two or am I just trying to make something of nothing?

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No, I don't think you are.

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I knew Dallas Willard a little bit, and I followed his movement,

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and I know those who are closely associated with him, or were.

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And Dallas, I think, would, partake in a sense of deconstruction, although

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as a philosopher, he'd probably want to use the word the way the French

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deconstructors do it, so he wouldn't say it's part of the church, but he

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would say that the church needed to be deconstructed In that, it wasn't leading

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people to Christ likeness, which was sort of his agenda, through the spiritual

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disciplines and he's very individualistic in the way he frames the Christian life.

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it's not very church centered, so he doesn't do much of the group stuff.

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Dallas Willard would say there's a lot of things that go on in the church

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that are largely a waste of time.

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And that we would do better, having smaller classes and having people

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ponder, more, serious issues of gravity.

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I'm sure he would say that deconstruction is in some ways the

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heartbeat of what was going on in the spiritual formation movement.

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Richard Foster, James Bryan Smith.

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Now, James Bryan Smith is much more oriented toward a local church.

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But they all, focus on individual.

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Personal formation into Christ likeness and anything that doesn't

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move in that direction in a church could very well be wasting our time.

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Hmm, and there's a lot of that going on right now,

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I don't quite orient myself toward those categories, but I know that, I'm

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certain that Richard Foster and Dallas Willard would say that very thing.

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I'm not going to speak for James Bryan Smith,

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right?

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because he's so committed to the local church.

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I don't know what he would say about that.

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Wrestle at times internally with My internal criticisms of the local church

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versus voices in my head and spirit.

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And it could be, you know, dogma that came from where I grew up of don't,

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don't mess with that local church.

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And, when I read through invisible Jesus that you and Tommy wrote,

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and Tommy is a local pastor, I think we need to mention that,

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yeah, he is.

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y'all still have a heart that local church body.

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it's not as if you're trying to throw that out.

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Correct.

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that's right.

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in fact, what we're saying is these Deconstructors are not leaving the church.

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They're leaving a church and largely, gravitating toward another church

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that is more consistent with what they think Jesus wants for his church.

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So, in a sense, they're uber committed to the church.

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and willing to abandon churches that they don't think are consistent with

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what Jesus wants for his people.

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So, yes, we perceive 86 percent of those committed to the church, and both

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Tommy and I are committed to the church.

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Tim, I grew up under the teachings of Francis Schaeffer when I was, a

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college student, and Francis Schaeffer handed on to me Some very severe

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critiques of the American church.

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So as a college student, I'm 20, 21, 22 years old, and I've got some

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weapons in my hands because of Francis Schaeffer and those weapons, I was

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using and peeled off a lot of things.

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in my fundamentalist past.

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And there were times when I knew a lot more about what I didn't

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believe than what I did believe.

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And it took a while.

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It took me another decade probably to flesh out what I thought

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the church should be all about.

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And I'm not saying that we've ever attended a church that lives up to

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those expectations, but I'm a Bonhoeffer reader, and I know we have to surrender

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our dreams of what the church could be for what the church actually is.

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Hmm.

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And I've often said, you have to lower your expectations of the

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church to find the fullness of the expectations that we should have.

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Now there's a, I think it was chapter nine in the book that, I was so thankful

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that I got to this place where y'all were talking about what to look for

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in a pastor or what to look for in leaders, I think was what it was.

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Because in

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Yeah.

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at times, Scott, I'm thinking.

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really, this is a negative thought, I know, but there's really no one

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else, no one out there to follow.

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And I think the message is we shouldn't be following men.

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We should be being more Christ like.

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But y'all gave some examples of, I think, some bad traits and then some

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traits to look for in that chapter.

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That's it.

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Chapter nine.

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and so I'd love to talk to because we do have a lot of leaders.

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We have leaders that are listening in probably in ministry and business scott,

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so Give give just some thoughts there We're going to obviously recommend

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people read the book but just give some thoughts about what leaders to be doing

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when it comes to, either the local church or even, I mean, some business

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guys I think could learn from this.

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How do they need to be leading in the world we are in today?

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This will probably

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Yeah.

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late 2024.

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People might be listening in 2025.

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How should leaders that are attempting to be Christ like be?

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should they be leading

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Yeah, I think that they should lead from their character.

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And Tommy, is an addict of the fruit of the spirit, which is a good thing.

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He often brings in the fruit of the spirit.

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So in that very chapter where Tommy is talking we both write this book

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for what to look for in a pastor.

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I thought this was really important for him to draft for himself

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because he's a pastor after all.

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It's a lot easier.

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For them to listen to one of their own kind, loving and joyful and peaceful

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and patient and kind and good and faithful and gentle and self control

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that's all from the fruit of the spirit.

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But I would say I would, reduce this in a sense and gather it

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all into the bundle of character.

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When a person has a Tove or a good character, they make good decisions.

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They relate to people in the right way.

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They, pursue a vision that is shaped by goodness rather

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than by, let's say success.

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So I would say that we would say a good pastor is someone who leads from character

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and that character ultimately would be Christ likeness or the fruit of the spirit

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or the beatitudes or following Jesus.

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Rather than, let's say, their success, their skills, their preaching ability,

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their entrepreneurial, set, their vision, their enthusiasm, their charisma,

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and look, Tim, we all know that this is what churches end up finding.

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They have a big platform.

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They want someone to fill that platform and make it bigger

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and bring people to the church.

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Put butts in the pews.

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Butts in the pews mean bills in the plate.

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Bills in the plate might mean baptisms in the water.

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Baptisms in the water might be buildings on the campus.

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And they see this process and there are, there is a skill set that can

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accomplish this, that can be absent or minimal amount of character.

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And we both believe that.

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We should focus on character and we should be following people of character.

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the one thing I'll just mention something that nags at me and I'll

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let you respond to it Because I I don't and I totally agree with that

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But one of the things that bothers me is the systems i'm a systems guy.

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I'm an engineer from georgia tech So I look at the structure of what

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we're doing and I i've often wondered scott we've created the structures

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And asked what will, I'm doing air quotes for those listening, if you're

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watching the video, you see, ask pastors do some things that are almost.

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impossible for a human individual to do.

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And let me give you the context for it.

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And then you could agree, disagree, throw stuff at me, whatever you'd like to do.

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I've often wondered if to actually pastor someone

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It can't be done to scale.

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It's, it's done in small settings.

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I mean, the biblical example that I see, there was about 12, maybe

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a few more, maybe a few less.

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wondering if to put 200, 400, 600, 10, 000 an auditorium and say that's a pastor.

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I mean, are we, are we it the wrong thing or are we structurally wrong?

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Am I missing something here?

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What are your thoughts when I bring that up?

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Are we

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putting men and

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I'm totally with you.

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in position to fail almost immediately?

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Okay.

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I think we put people in positions to succeed at what we want on that platform.

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All right.

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So, but that doesn't make them a pastor.

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what we've created is a platform for someone who has the skill

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to keep our attention for approximately 45 minutes once a week.

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Okay.

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And frankly, there are some really good people who can do this.

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But you cannot pastor 20, 000.

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You cannot pastor 10, 000.

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You cannot pastor a thousand.

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You, you can't really pastor much more than, I know 12 is what Jesus has, but

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that's a little, that's a little easy to latch on to a number, If you have

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time and you have presence, I suppose you can pastor 100 to 200 people.

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I don't know.

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I mean, I'm not a pastor, but I am in pastoral relations, as it were, as a

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professor of seminary students with dozens of seminary students who rely on

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me for wisdom and advice and suggestions.

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but I'm not, I'm not truly pastoring them in the sense of

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mentoring them in the faith.

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And it is true that you can mentor someone, some people you can

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mentor for a year, and they're so skilled as Christians, they grow

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so quickly that they can kind of move on and you can just be there.

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And occasionally have conversations over coffee.

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Others take more work.

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And so I, I'm totally, I understand what's going on in churches, big churches

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with amazing speakers and amazing performers on the, on the platform

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with music, I get that and it draws people in, but that's not pastoring.

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Pastoring is to nurture.

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a person into Christ likeness.

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And nurturing requires presence.

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It requires relationship.

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It requires time.

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I mean, I know lots of these pastors who are on these big platforms that

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you couldn't get to, you couldn't get to with a, with a, I don't know,

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with an Uzi, with a, um, a huge army vehicle blasting down doors.

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I mean, there's so many layers.

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I don't understand how that's a pastor.

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Uh, but I do know what preaching is, and that's what we've created

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in our churches, is platforms for preachers who can bring people into the

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a

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church.

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lot of entertainment factor and I sometimes joke smoking mirrors when I

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mean smoking fog machines But smoking mirrors our son had a situation.

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He was at a church in la, uh semi famous Pastor and younger going

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through some stuff and we just kind of recommended, Hey, why don't

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you talk to someone at church?

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He served on their cleanup team.

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So he cleaned the bathrooms and all that kind of stuff.

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Hey, you're serving there.

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You're giving there, you know, go, ask one of the assistants.

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I know you're not going to get to the main guy because he's famous.

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And even the assistant, which you called hirelings, I think in the book, even,

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yeah,

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assistant, this was the comment they made.

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And truthfully, it ticked off mom and dad was my time is not my own.

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I don't have time to meet with you and have a conversation.

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And you know, this was, you know, our son, young man that was going through

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stuff, probably had Was it deconstructing?

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I don't know.

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Might've been, you know, he's.

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Gone through a lot of questions and stuff is solid young guy.

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But anyway, I, I see that and that grieves me we have those situations.

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should, it should grieve you, that's, that's the task of a pastor.

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Right,

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And you shouldn't call yourself a pastor.

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You know, when, when students come to me, Tim, I, I get students who are

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thinking about becoming pastors too.

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I used to get more of them when I was, when I was teaching undergrads, but.

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They'll come to me.

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Do you think I should be a pastor?

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And I always ask this question.

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Who are you pastoring right now?

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And who considers you their pastor?

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Because if both of those answers are nobody and nobody,

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then you're not a pastor.

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Pastoring is not a job.

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It's a calling.

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And I know a lot of pastors, and they pastor people.

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They pastor everybody they talk to, and it's the way they are.

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That's the gift that God has given them.

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So I'm, I'm totally with you.

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I think we got a, a massive problem, uh, in creating platforms that

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attract charismatic personalities and Lots of whom are narcissists

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who, um, who can really entertain.

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I, I, you know, I, I wouldn't even reduce it to entertainment.

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They're just really gifted speakers and they can pull it off.

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I mean, I, I love to listen to Andy Stanley, you know, I, I really do.

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I, I, I'd sit and stop and listen to Andy Stanley.

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Um, and I know he pastors people on the staff, people around him.

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I know him well enough to know that.

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But.

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Uh, you can't pastor the massive audience that he has, um, but there

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aren't very many people who have those kind of speaking skills that can,

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that can hold an audience like that.

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I mean, those are, that's really quite a gift.

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And it's unfortunate that little churches are just pouring all their

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people into these big churches in part because the, the local pastor can't,

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can't, can't perform the way he's at.

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Those megachurch people can.

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right.

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It was, uh, I'm going to shift a little bit and maybe look more at this circle

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back to the, to the deconstruction topic and some of the reasons for it.

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And it was, it was good for me.

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I think I was able to read your revelation for the rest of us, uh, a few weeks ago.

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It seems to me like some of the big questions that come up, and maybe this

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is of the results of this 86%, this study that y'all were able to get access to,

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seems as if there are two, two big topics that are kind of driving people to have

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questions that, Individuals need to answer and then also leaders need to answer.

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And this is, I think, one of the calls you have in the book is to, to those leaders.

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But it seems like there's that in the beginning question,

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we'll call it like creation.

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then there's in the end questions, which is, know, death and what's happening,

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eschatology and things like that.

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Those seem like Two of the big thing, big themes that are causing questions.

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And then there's some sub ones that we'll talk about in a little

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while, like politics and, uh, you know, things that are going on with

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systems in the world and all that.

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Would that, would that be accurate?

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And I, and I think y'all address some of those when I was reading through the book.

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You know, uh, Tim, we've listened to a lot of these stories and we haven't

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really, um, done any demographic of what, what, what causes people to go through

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into a crisis and start deconstructing.

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So, I, I tend, uh, I don't know that those are the two most important,

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but those are two important ones and we're, we're happy to talk about those.

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Creation science, I mean, I taught undergrads.

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for 17 years, and I taught Introduction to the Bible, and when you do

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Introduction to the Bible, you do Genesis 1, and when you have science

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students in the room, they're listening.

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They want to know what you think, and I've had plenty of students who over the

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years told me they grew up with a certain kind of creation science, and they have

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studied enough biology and the history of Let's say the genome and genetic DNA,

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et cetera, that they're not so persuaded of this young earth creationism stuff.

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But the problem is that it gets tied to a group that believes this.

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It gets tied to inerrancy, and then it becomes authoritative, and

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then all of a sudden, if you don't believe that, they, you're rejected.

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And you go through a crisis, you know, what's wrong with me?

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a part of this group anymore.

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So creation science is one of the major issues and it doesn't usually stand alone.

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Um,

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in my lifetime, I've seen people be able to evangelize successfully

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on the basis of the question.

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I think it was James Kennedy's question.

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if you had to meet God tonight and died, uh, what would be your reason

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for God admitting you to heaven?

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That's the ultimate eschatological question.

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is what happens when you die, and will you go to heaven?

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I, I saw in the early 2000s that this question just disappeared

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from a massive segment of American, uh, churches and Christians.

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They weren't asking that question anymore.

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So that ultimate eschatological question died out.

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I don't believe we should end that question, because if, if eternity is

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real, I think we ought to be ready for it.

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But at the same time, those, those are two questions a lot of deconstructors

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are deeply bothered by the fact that of some Calvinists who think there

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are very, very few people who will be saved in all of Iran and all of Iraq

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and all of Russia and all of China.

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And all of a sudden you start thinking, you mean the whole world

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is going to hell except just a few.

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Presbyterians in the United States and in Denmark and, um, the Netherlands.

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And you think, you know, there's something wrong here that we need to rethink.

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And, uh, so that, that is, that is a major issue.

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And we usually see it in a version where people start talking about hell.

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That they're really bothered by how Christians, uh,

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frame the doctrine of hell.

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So those are two very significant issues that what we have seen is

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it precipitates a crisis of people thinking, do I believe this?

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And if I don't believe this, what's going to happen to me?

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with the group of Christians that I worship with.

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What's going to happen in my own family?

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What's going to happen to my leadership at church?

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As a pastor, am I going to lose my job?

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Am I going to lose my income?

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Where are we going to live and what am I going to do?

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Those are questions that are immediately precipitated when people begin to

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deconstruct and there, we want a world in which people can ask those questions.

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Yeah, and unfortunately, a lot of our structures don't allow that,

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uh, that kind of opens the door.

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I, I just want to ask a question or two related to, the, uh, I think you

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called them dissident disciples in your book revelation for the rest of us.

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and, and the reason is kind of pertinent for me, Scott, is.

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I'm approaching 40 years as a follower of Christ.

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as if I've been growing and learning and all the whole time.

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And unfortunately now at 60, I feel like I know less than I knew.

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And a good thing.

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I'm not, you know, embarrassed to say that there's, more there,

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but I realized that I had a bait.

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in dispensationalist mindset.

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And the thing I liked about that book was that spent a good bit of time sort

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of busting up that, um, we'll call it the dogma of dispensationalism.

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I don't know if that's a good term or not, but we'll, we'll,

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Fair enough.

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Fair enough.

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Yeah.

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And just, just a question or two about that.

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How, Why is that, just that one mindset, why is it dangerous, and

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how does it relate to your new book, Invisible Jesus, and people

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going through some deconstruction?

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If at all, if I'm trying to match something up here, you

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can say, don't worry about it.

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Um,

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why is it dangerous?

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Okay.

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A lot of people are dispensationalists.

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And I would say the instinct of American evangelicals of a non reformed bent.

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Okay.

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The reformed people tend to be post millennial or at least amillennial.

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But the, the other part, uh, are more or less dispensational.

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And there is a broad range of people who have dispensational instincts.

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Some of whom are really detailed.

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Way too detailed, and they know that Putin's the Antichrist, those sort.

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And there's others who are just sort of Dispensational, that's

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what their instincts are, but they don't think about it very much.

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Um, I think the biggest problem that dispensationalism handed on

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to the American church, and Tim, I don't want to deny This, it's huge.

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The impact is everywhere.

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Most people in most evangelical churches have dispensational instincts.

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Is that we have no, because of dispensationalism, we have no

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theopolitical discipleship in the church.

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Now what I mean by that is, our discipleship does not, has not taught us,

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How to think politically in a theological manner to understand leadership in the

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world Political powers how government works how it relates to the church There's

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just so little of this and it's almost like whatever America does is good Because

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we're the best nation in the world and therefore our support of Israel and our

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Paying for bombs to beat the daylights out of Gaza, uh, our support of Ukraine

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and maybe that's going to end now.

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Uh, that's okay.

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There's just no reflection.

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Christians just go, well, that's the government, that's their job.

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And we support the government.

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I, I think that the book of Revelation was, was written for

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an entirely different purpose.

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It taught people, the believers of the seven churches in Western Asia Minor,

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how to think politically about Rome.

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And we get a beautiful template.

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Now, we're not going to apply everything in the vision of, especially Revelation

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17, 18, a little bit of 19, on how, um, the apocalypse describes Rome.

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And it's, it is powerful critique, prophetic, and it teaches believers.

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And there aren't very many of them.

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But John somehow thinks there's going to be.

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An innumerable number of believers in the final kingdom of God, which is LOL

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moment for those little house churches in Ephesus and Pergamum, is that he's,

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he's teaching them how to look at Rome in a completely different way and to follow

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Jesus as the Lord, because someday, The kingdom of God is going to be on earth.

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And that's what we look forward to.

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So, uh, now deconstruction I have found this isn't, you know, I can't gather

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together all the deconstructors and hand them revelation for the rest of

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us that I wrote with Cody magic and say, now, what do you think Tommy, uh,

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preachers on this, he has preached for about a year on revelation and he's

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got good, really good sermons and he knows that these deconstructors love.

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This vision of the book of Revelation because it is it gives them a

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hermeneutic prophetic resistance to political powers that run the world

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astray and that create injustices.

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So I really believe that, uh, that revelation for the, you

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know, you've, you're the first person who's asked this question.

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I think a revelation for the rest of us is a recipe for the soul.

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For the deconstructor.

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I think they liked that book.

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I think so, too, and I hate to put timestamps on these, but you

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and I are recording this three days, four days after the U.

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S.

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elections in November.

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I'm not sure when exactly it will release, but and it kind of framed my mind when

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I was reading through Deconstruction, and what I realized is that I believe

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with reading those two books, Election conversation and wherever side people

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on kind of is irrelevant to me.

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It's, it's, I realize that I'm actually deconstructing in my mind, many things

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that are in what I'll call our Babylonian system, I, I'm almost deconstructing

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government, What I think about work, what I think about money, definitely

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church, as we talked about earlier, some people even, you know, family.

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I mean, to me, it seems like there's just a lot of deconstructing going on and,

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you know, there's no data on that, but it seems like that's kind of what's and the

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political environment is no different.

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Would that be, I don't know, accurate or

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I, I totally agree with you and I know Tommy would agree with you.

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Yes, there is.

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There is deconstruction of all these capitalism work, how work is constructed.

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Family life is constructed.

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How housing is developed.

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Wage, economic, uh, immigration, all these things are up for grabs.

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The deconstructors are saying if Jesus and the kingdom of God, is the

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center of the vision of God for this world, then we ought to be pursuing

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those things rather than how to, uh, um, let's say aggrandize the power

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of the United States or aggrandize the power of our political party or

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aggrandize the power of our church versus another church in the neighborhood.

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That all, they see that and they think this is just completely

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backward and upside down and wrong.

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And so, yeah, they see in the book of Revelation.

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all the themes that could be connected to invisible Jesus.

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Oh,

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I love the subtitle of Invisible Jesus, a book about leaving the

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church and looking for Christ.

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this is kind of like maybe a little bit of a softball to you.

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Maybe not.

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I don't know.

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Is it possible that we're getting to the place where many of us, many people,

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many, I don't know, individuals are realizing really is only one place to go

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and it's towards Jesus?

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No,

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I thought you meant one church.

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Okay.

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Well, which one you talking about here?

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one

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Yeah.

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No.

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One

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Yes.

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I,

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one political party.

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Which party is it, Scott?

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Tell us.

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No, I'm just kidding.

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yeah.

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Um, I think, um, yes, every church, every person who goes to a church

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should walk away saying, when I was there today, I saw Jesus.

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They should not walk away saying that's a great pastor.

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Or, that's a beautiful piece of music.

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Those things are all fine to say, but if they don't, if they come away

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and they did not encounter Jesus, they've, the church has failed.

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So yeah, there's one place, one person to go to, it's Jesus.

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And those who gather to Jesus want to be in fellowship with one another.

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That's where church theology starts, in being around Jesus, listening to him.

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Oh yeah.

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the, um, the message of this book, invisible Jesus is to

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me more Jesus get with Jesus.

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is the So, uh, anyway, I, I recommend the book.

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I think it's a great book.

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It got me thinking.

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There were times that I recognized some of my, uh, dogmas and I'm okay to admit

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that, uh, I, I highly recommend it.

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Uh, one quick question before we wrap up here, Scott, I know you have

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to jump off, but written 90 books.

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Good gracious, that's a lot of books.

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Any, any of it that would need to be changed or adjusted.

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I'm sitting here thinking over the course of 40 years, like, uh,

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you know, we were all on a journey, any, any of your journey caused you

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to go back and revisit something.

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And, uh, we don't have to go deep on this, but just curious.

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Yeah,

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You know, every book I'm, I totally live with the reality that when I

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write a book, it's connected to the world in which I live at that time.

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And so, for instance, I was looking at my little, uh, NIV application

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commentary on Galatians recently, and I liked my exposition.

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And then I looked at the, they call it application at that time.

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I went, Oh, I wouldn't talk about that today.

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So yes, um, but that's, that's the nature of writing.

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We learn and we grow and we develop and things that we said 30 years ago

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are not things that we would say today.

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I don't think, I think my exegesis of Galatians is, for me, it's rock solid.

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I still pretty much adhere to all of that.

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But, um, the world to which I would speak that is a different

Speaker: 00:40:49

world than I did at that time.

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So yes, and I'll tell you one book, uh, that I loved writing.

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It's called Embracing Grace.

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Um, that book was totally reframed and, and dismantled by a book called King Jesus

Speaker: 00:41:08

Gospel, and that was, I was exploring how best to talk about the gospel.

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And I wrote Embracing Grace, uh, and I liked the idea of grace,

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uh, but it wasn't Jesus centered enough in King Jesus Gospel.

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Did that so I never recommend people to read embracing grace

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final question.

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I know you need to jump.

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We're seek go create Scott.

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Those three words.

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You probably guess where the origins of some of those are.

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I'm going to allow you to choose one of those is just my final question.

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Which do you choose?

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It just resonates currently with you more than the other seek go or create and why?

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Well, that's a good question Create I believe that God in Christ is Recreating

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us to a new life and I want to participate I want to be involved in the work of

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God in my own life I want I want God to do that and I want to participate

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with others in the recreation of gospel grace life in our world today, and God

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is the actor who can make this happen.

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So I think that's, I think that answers your question.

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it does.

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I'm sure the books are available where everybody can get books, correct?

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Uh,

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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right here.

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got it on my iPad.

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Not my iPad, my Kindle.

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there's a hard copy.

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Man, that looks good.

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I like that black cover.

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That looks nice there.

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It's so clever, because the letters, Invisible Jesus, are

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black as well, but they're risen slightly above, so it's cool.

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there's a fading of the uh, invisible there.

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That's cool.

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Yeah, they're fading in the color version too, so, this is a good cover.

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Yeah, I really like it.

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really cool.

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That one would jump out.

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Well, anyway, thank you, Scott.

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And thank you, and in spite of the fact that you're a part of the

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Rambling Wreck of Georgia Tech.

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what, what is wrong with that?

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That's a, that's a plus right there, isn't it?

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My parents lived in Atlanta, but they, uh, I don't think they were

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big fans of Georgia Tech at the time.

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people?

Speaker: 00:43:25

Hopefully not.

Speaker: 00:43:26

Uh, no, no, they're from Illinois, but, uh,

Speaker: 00:43:29

Thank you so much, Scott.

Speaker: 00:43:30

I appreciate it.

Speaker: 00:43:31

Make sure you get a copy of the book Invisible Jesus.

Speaker: 00:43:34

I also think Revelation for the Rest of Us is an excellent book to add to it.

Speaker: 00:43:39

It will get you thinking.

Speaker: 00:43:42

There's no doubt about it.

Speaker: 00:43:43

We have new episodes every Monday here at SeekGoCreate.

Speaker: 00:43:47

Love to hear comments.

Speaker: 00:43:48

If you're watching this on YouTube, down in the comments.

Speaker: 00:43:50

Let me know what you think about these topics.

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If you're listening on your audio, that's great to share this with other people.

Speaker: 00:43:55

And, I'd also ask you if you love what we're bringing, if you love this content,

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then support us, go to SeekGoCreate.

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com forward slash support SeekGoCreate Dot com forward slash support and

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you can leave a tip or contribute financially or leave comments

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About what we're doing here.

Speaker: 00:44:13

That would be greatly Appreciated.

Speaker: 00:44:15

So again, thanks for listening until next time continue being

Speaker: 00:44:20

all that you were created to be