Life-Changing Moments and Leadership Lessons from Hal Donaldson

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Want you to interview mother Teresa for our book. In the course of

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that interview with mother Teresa, she turned the tables on me, and

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she simply asked this question. Young man, let me ask

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you, what are you doing to help the poor and the suffering?

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And I figured I shouldn't lie to her. I need to tell her the truth.

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And so I did, and I said, I'm not really doing much of anything.

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And she replied this way. She said, well, everyone can do

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something. Just do the next kind thing that God puts in front of

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you.

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What drives a person to tackle global poverty and hunger head

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on? Today, we're joined by Hal Donaldson, president and

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CEO of Convoy of Hope, a faith based organization

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recognized by Forbes as one of the top 50 charities in the

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United States. How a steered convoy of hope to distribute over

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2,500,000,000 in aid, impaction,

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and action. Listen in on our conversation as we

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explore the depths of what really matters in serving

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both ourselves and serving others while

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attempting to fulfill God's call in our lives. These things

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are deeply woven into Hal's latest book, What

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Really Matters. Hal, welcome to seek, go, create.

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Hey. It's great to be with you, Tim. Thank you for the invitation. Really grateful.

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Great to have you here too, Hal. And I and I've gotta admit, you

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are I'll use the terms kinda weird. You're kind of a rock star, but you're

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kind of a a a silent rock star. I

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I I got your stuff across my desk. I saw the book title. I said,

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yeah. We want him. And then I started doing a research. I said, gosh. This

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guy has a a lot going on. So we're gonna have a great

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conversation. But let's pretend for just a moment

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that, let's say we met outside of your domain,

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maybe outside of Church World or outside of nonprofit, etcetera.

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And you just bump into somebody and they ask you what you do. What's

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what's your typical response when people ask you that?

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Yeah. Well, first let me just say, I'm going to tell my kids tonight that

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you call me a rock star. They're going to be very impressed with that.

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But, yeah, I, I went out like I'm on an airplane, for example, and,

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the person sitting next to me asked that question. Typically we'll say, I am,

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president of a charity that is feeding children all over the world,

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responding to disasters all over the world. And we really specialize

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in mobilizing and activating churches and bringing

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them together with businesses to really make a lasting difference in the

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lives of people who are hurting or impoverished. What's the

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response you typically get from that? Tell me more, and they want to go a

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lot deeper. Like we start talking about our women's empowerment initiative

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and the tens of thousands of mothers every year that we're

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helping start businesses. And they wanna talk about the farming

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initiatives. Again, training tens of thousands of

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farmers and families every year, helping them increase their yields. So they wanna go deep

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and wanna understand really where it all came from. How did it all

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start? That's one of the questions I get quite a bit is, how did this

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all start? You know, I was interviewing a pastor recently,

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and we were talking about the same thing. And he said, you know, there's some

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people that might have a little bit of an edge to them when

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he mentions that he's a pastor. But my guess is

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that regardless of spiritual background, regardless of where they are in the

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world, I would guess you don't get anybody go, oh,

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I can't can't believe you. Feed the hungry, take care of the

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widows. I mean, it's pretty foundational needs based

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stuff. Correct? Yeah. It is. And, you

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know, I like to say this that, hey. Christians don't have a

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monopoly on compassion. We don't. And we really encourage

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people of all faiths. We encourage people who aren't religious,

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don't believe in God, to be compassionate. So yeah, it's been

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a, it's been a great conversation starter, Tim. I've met people where they

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become lifelong friends and just because they believe in what we

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do and, they may not necessarily believe in God yet.

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But they are on a journey, and they certainly are interested in the

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ongoing conversation. So that's certainly, been my

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experience. Yeah. And I I love that. I love it. Because and as Christians, we

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read that in scripture. I think sometimes we read in scripture

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what we are to do as Christians, and we look for other things to do,

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like correct other people or I went to bible school for a

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few years, beat people over the head with a bible, something like that. But I

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love the foundation of what you're doing. To to I tell you what I'd love

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for us to do during this conversation because we've got a lot of leaders listening

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in. We talk leadership. I've read through the book and and a lot

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of the themes there so resonate with a lot of our topics we've been having

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recently. But I think before I go any further,

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I wasn't as familiar with Convoy as Hope as I would have liked

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to have been. And so kind of to get

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started, I know I mentioned a few things in the introduction, and those are

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numbers and stats. But what and this may be general because

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I wanna talk specifically operations and leadership things later.

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But what in general would you like people to know about Convoy of Hope before

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we dive into talking about your book and leadership and some other things? Yeah.

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At the core of our mission is to really activate, mobilize

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churches, and to resource them. And, you know, I've I've found this to

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be true that thousands and thousands of churches that work alongside

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convoy of hope, it's really convoy of hope working alongside them.

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Our desire in every community in every setting is to

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really elevate the local church, lift up the name of Jesus. We're really

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not interested in building another charity. We're really

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interested in fulfilling the mission of elevating the local church. We

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believe that the church is God's answer to meeting the needs of

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humanity, both physical and spiritual needs. And so we are a

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supply chain to the church. There have been times where we have been asked

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to do other things outside of the church realm, and we have turned

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those opportunities down. They would have been fruitful financially. They

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certainly would have led to maybe more name recognition, but we

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didn't wanna leave what we believe God had given us as a mission.

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And the core value of Convoy of Hope is that it's about the

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local church. And so we have spent, the last 30

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years coming alongside thousands and thousands of churches

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and helping them be the hero in their communities and to lift up the name

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of Jesus. So, Tim, that's probably at the core of everything

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we do, is whether it's children feeding, women empowerment,

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disaster response, everything we do is to

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lift up the name of Jesus and to elevate the local church. The reason

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that that means so much to me, Hal, is

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because for some years now, I

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have actually been I don't wanna say critical, maybe

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cynical, but the local church has taken kind of

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a beating over the last few years for some time now.

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And some of its leadership challenges, some of its, you know,

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maybe culture and different and some of it maybe the the church has brought on

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itself. I haven't run across many people

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that are speaking in such a positive way

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hearing that. Well, that's and we give God the

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glory for that. It's why we've experienced rapid growth is because

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we we are tethered to local churches across the country. Yeah. And the and the

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good thing going back to something we talked about earlier, I actually

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think one of the things you may be doing is helping that local

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church stay on one of our biblical

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assignments, which is to feed and take care

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of and nurture and go out. You know, it could be that y'all

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come in and really provide that mechanism. Correct? That's

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exactly right. I think part of what we do is we remove all

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excuses. We're supplying the church

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with resources, know how, and we're helping them

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just really mobilize and activate their own people. And

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so, yes, that's, that's really our calling. And, I think there are thousands

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and thousands of churches across the country and around the world for that matter

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that would say that we've stayed true to that mission. It's

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we're really not interested. I know it doesn't sound like probably

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a wise thing to say, but I really am not interested in building another

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nonprofit or another charity. If that's all we do, then we have not

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fulfilled our calling and our mandate from the Lord.

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Yeah. That's excellent. I wanna come back to your

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role in the organization as we

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maybe wrap up. But what I'd love to do now is backtrack

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because when I when I'm interacting with people that I would

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call them, I would put them in the achievement oriented

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personalities, and I believe you would definitely fit into that.

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All of our guests really kind of fit into that. I I like

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to find out a little bit of the background that may have

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fed into that. From doing reading on you, I'm gonna mention 3 things

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that seem significant, and I will sometimes call them

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catalytic events that they really impact because I've heard you

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mention them as, you know, one when you were 12, one I think when

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you were able to interview mother Teresa, and then one when you had a health

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issue. I I think you were 50 years old at the time. I don't I

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don't there may be I think there were some others, but those were the ones

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when I'm just stepping back looking. Yeah. What do you wanna

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say about those as we lead into what really

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matters? Because I think all of those were significant, but anything I'm

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gonna allow you, whichever one you wanna choose or pick from there, if not all

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of them briefly. Yeah. I I I would

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probably combine those first two because they kind of work

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together. When I was 12, my parents were hit by a drunken driver. My

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father was killed. My mother was seriously injured. I was in the hospital

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for a number of months. Our family didn't have insurance. And so the

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man who hit them didn't have insurance. Our family was forced to survive

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on welfare and food stamps. We made it, we survived in

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large part because of the kindness and the generosity of a local church

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that wrapped their arms around us. And one family in particular, they

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allowed us to live with them in their single wide trailer for a year.

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As a teenager, I had a lot of, questions because I

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experienced the shame and the pain of poverty, but I also

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experienced the power of kindness. People put shoes on our feet. They

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brought groceries to our door. I think that's really where my

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love for the local church began because I was a recipient,

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But fast forward to adulthood and I thought the best way to

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escape poverty was through education. I worked my way through college or in

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several degrees. And in my twenties, I landed a job as

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a ghostwriter, helping people write their books. And

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I have a journalism degree and I began writing books

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and I got a contract that took me to Calcutta, India,

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where I met with some missionaries who I was going to write a book for.

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And they said, well, we want you to interview mother Teresa for a book.

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In the course of that interview with Mother Teresa, she turned the tables

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on me, and she simply asked this question. Young man, let

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me ask you, what are you doing to help the poor and the suffering?

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And I figured I shouldn't lie to her. I need to tell her the truth.

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And so I did. And I said, I'm not really doing much of anything.

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And she replied this way. She said, well, everyone can do

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something. Just do the next kind thing that God puts in front of

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you. I returned to the States after that

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conversation convicted, feeling like I needed to have a

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priority change, began praying for God to do a work in my

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heart. And one day, Tim, I

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felt led to do something quite unusual. And I thought I was

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going to write a book about it, but I felt led to travel to 8

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cities in America and live in the streets for 3 days 3 nights. I

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went to Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, DC, New York, major cities.

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I walked the streets after midnight with a hidden tape recorder interviewing drug

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addicts and gang members, prostitutes, runaways, and the homeless.

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And I rode with the police on the midnight shift. And all I can tell

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you is that in the streets of America, God broke my heart,

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and he had to do a work in my heart before he could do a

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work through my hands. Came back after those

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trips, and I, again, felt compelled 30 years

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ago to load up a, pickup truck with $300 worth of

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groceries and and start passing an amount to, working poor

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families, actually migrant farm workers in Northern California. That

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was the sort of convoy of hope 30 years ago. God breathed on it.

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We went from pickup trucks to box trucks, to

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semi trucks, to a fleet of semi trucks, to

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warehouses around the world. And so in a nutshell,

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I combine that 12 year old experience and the love and the

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kindness I experienced really to the work that we're doing

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today. And one thing, you sort of mentioned it, but it's something

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that is on people's mind when they hear a story like that. And and I

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do wanna say, I have heard some interviews, and

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I've read more from your book. There there is more to the story. It's

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when when one says a something so

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quickly about father being killed in an accident and all that,

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I I don't wanna I don't wanna imply we're being flippant about that story at

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all, but it was significant. And so what I I wanna

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follow-up is ask, was your heart because many

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people go through disappointment. I interviewed someone recently. They said the biggest

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hindrance to success is discouragement and disappointment. And

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so to talk about I'm I'm really

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fascinated now at this stage of my life. I'm 60, and I'm going, what's the

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condition of my heart? And I used to never think about that. But what was

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the condition of your heart during that time, those those years?

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Yeah. I I asked the hard questions at

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beginning at age 12. You know? Is he a good god?

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Did he cause my father to die? Or is he

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impotent? Did this just happen by chance? So those were the

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hard questions that I asked of the team. And Bill

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Davis, Bill and Levadas, they're Levadas Davis, they're the ones that

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invited us to live in their trailer. So as a 12 year old boy, I

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was hurting and Bill Davis came and he put his arm on my

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shoulder. And he said, don't allow the tragedy of your youth to

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become a lifelong excuse because where you start

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in life doesn't have to dictate where you end. And those words I

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held onto Tim, I held onto them. And, I think they

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really helped me get through high school, which was very difficult.

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Because you're going to school without a sack lunch. You're going to school with holes

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in your shoes. Those were hard times and I had to start

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working at a very young age. I was the oldest of 4 children.

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And so I became the father of the home at age 12.

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Those were some really difficult times, But if it

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wasn't for the local church, I would have chosen a life of bitterness.

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I would have. I wouldn't be on this podcast with you. I'd probably be in

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jail. But again, the love, the kindness that

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that church showed me is something that changed my life. In

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situations that are challenging,

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would you say now that there are blessings that have

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come from what anyone would agree is a

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challenge, losing a father, your mother, you know, going

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through difficulty. What are some of the things in looking back that

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it's a blessing? First of all, you're able you you've got a story to

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tell. Right?

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Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I think, maybe a

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a lesson that I learned along the way. I think when I was younger, I

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wanted to try and apologize for God. I was trying to explain

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for God. People would ask me questions like, you

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know, why are good people hurting? Why are they going

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through difficult circumstances? And I think we make a

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real mistake when we try to explain it away,

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and we use slogans, cliches to try and explain that

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question away. I think we're much better off saying, you know, I don't

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understand why children are abused. I don't

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understand why women suffer, at the

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hands of their husband. I don't know why lives are lost in disasters.

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I don't know why. But this I do know, that there are

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some things we're not going to be able to understand until we get to heaven.

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And I do believe that he's a good God. I believe he's a good

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God because he took my life and he showed

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me his kindness and his goodness. And I've seen him through Convoy of Hope

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give 1,000,000 and millions of people, hope

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and restore their hope. I believe it. I will go

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to my grave believing he's a good God. And so I

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think as a believer, as a follower of Christ,

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I learned at a young age, don't try to apologize for

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God. Don't try to explain him. And

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when I got to that point, it really helped me. It

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relieved a burden. So now I don't approach my father's death

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with resentment. I don't understand it. Even now,

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I don't understand it. But I believe he's a good God, and I

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believe he has a purpose, for everyone's life.

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Yes. And I think one of the key things that I I hear is that

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and there's a really, really good chance that we will not

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totally grasp it. I think one of our desires is

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to control and understand. And as

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I mature, I think part of that maturity is just

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letting go of that desire to control and

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and rule and reign in my life and allow him to rule and reign in

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my life. How one of the things we have as a title here

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is kinda like a subtitle is the leadership journey.

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And Yeah. When we're talking about an organization

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that's 30 years old, has done all that convoy of hope

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has, and I think I saw 12 years of

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20% plus growth over the last few years. One of the things

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I love to know, we've got some young leaders. We've got mature leaders that

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listen in here of both for profit and nonprofit.

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What are what are some things you can share about your leadership

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journey along the way? Obviously, you were younger

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when you started and probably had some drive, energy,

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etcetera. Anything come to mind when I mentioned the leadership

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journey that you've been on? Sure.

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I'd like to tie it back to, the last, segment if I

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can. You know, I think as leaders, it's okay to ask questions.

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And even if those questions may feel harsh, God can handle

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it. One of the things I do, Tim, is I write my questions down,

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and I, tend to put them in my wallet. If you were to look at

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my wallet today, you would see that I have several questions for God that I'm

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asking, and just so God can handle it. And so as leaders,

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it's important that we're asking the right questions and we're not afraid

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of asking those questions. Asking the right questions

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is not a lack of faith. I believe it actually is faith

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when you know who to ask. And so, you know, I carry those

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questions with me and I'm asking God those questions every day. So that'd

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be one thing I would say. A lot of people are paralyzed by the fact

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that they have unanswered questions. We don't need to be paralyzed

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by unanswered questions. In my case, I don't need to be

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paralyzed by the magnitude of the need out there in the world. God wants

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me just to do what I can do every single day to wake up and

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do what I can do. And I think as a young leader, I thought that

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I had to work at 125%.

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And if I didn't, that I was really disappointing God. I

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wish in my early days that I had prayed more and worked less.

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Honestly, if I had, I probably would have saved myself a lot

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of grief and a lot of challenges along the way. The last thing I

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would say is probably make sure that you're living under

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the right expectations. If you are,

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ambitious and you want to accomplish something for God,

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that's beautiful. We all should be that kind of person that wants to

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do what God's asking us to do. But a lot of times we're living

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under the expectations of other people. It could be a spouse. It could be a

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child. It could be an employer. And those expectations

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are unrealistic. And as a result, we work at

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125% to try to achieve our goals. I think

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when I was in my twenties, I put up on pedestals people

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who had the loudest voice, who had the largest network, who

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were the most seen. In retrospect, I

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wish I had put on pedestal people who were the most humble,

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people who were the most loyal, the most faithful and kind.

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Because what happens is as a young person, you have a tendency to

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try to emulate what you see and what you idolize. And you

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begin to work so hard to achieve what they've achieved, but

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that may not be what God's called you to do. And so know,

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in retrospect, I wish I had just tried to emulate and idolize

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people who are just faithful. And and, I think you've

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got some examples in the book. And that's the reason I even do a podcast.

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I love asking questions. I've even, in my quiet time, said, God,

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are you okay with my questions? And I I think he's told me, I love

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it that you ask questions. That's the way I wired you. But do do you

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have any examples of, I'll call them an

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audacious question that somebody listening might go, oh my

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gosh. I can't believe Hal asked God

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that. I mean, anything come to mind when I say that?

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Sure. Oh, yeah. Many. Many. Because, I would

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approach it this way, that if if I have the ability to, answer those

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questions or to fulfill those questions, then they're probably

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not the right questions for God. The questions I ask God

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are things that I can't do on my own and my own

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ability. I'll give you one. So, you know, about 4 years ago,

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we felt like that it was time for us to consolidate our

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offices and our work into one facility. And, you know,

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I wrote down in my wallet, a little piece of paper in

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my wallet, I said, God, how on earth do we

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raise $70,000,000? Because, you know, we didn't

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wanna take children out of feeding lines. We didn't wanna take women out

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of the women's empowerment program. We didn't want to stop our community

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festivals across the United States. So God, how do we

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continue to do that and to grow that, and simultaneously,

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how do we raise $70,000,000 So that

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was my question. All right? Because, again, that's

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beyond my ability. I could not do that,

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but God can, and God showed us how.

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And so I felt like the Lord answered me, and it

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was how to knock on one door at a time, just

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one door at a time, and ask people to help.

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And we did, and God did it.

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You can't take credit for that. You can't reach for the

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glory. God did it. And there are many examples. There are

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more personal examples of relationship issues that have,

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come up through the years. I discovered a long time ago, God is a

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great reader. He reads. He reads really well.

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I love the imagery of you writing it down and putting it

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in your wallet. Wallets generally, and

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this is symbol little symbolism here is where we keep our

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money. You know, we we keep credit cards, maybe some pictures

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of, you know, family and all that. I've got kind of a lean wallet myself

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right now, and I love the imagery of you taking your

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questions for God and inserting it in there with

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those those typical financial things that are in a in a

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wallet. How what what do you

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what if someone were to ask

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and I don't know if it's changed over the years, if it was early on,

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if it was different, and now it's it it it's different than that. But

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what would you say are your superpowers? What are some things that

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God gifted you with

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that are they come natural to you?

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Yeah. You know, someone asked me one time, you know, what do I want

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written on my gravestone? And I said, I'd like it to

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say that I treated everyone the same, everyone the same.

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And again, I come from poverty. I come from

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inferiority and brokenness. And it

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helps you it prevents you from getting full of yourself. And

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when you get full of yourself, you no longer hear God's voice. You don't hear

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it with clarity. And so, yeah, I think that's

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probably the most important thing. And, Tim, if you're my friend,

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I make it my goal to give you more than you give me.

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So if there's anything that God's blessed me with, it's, a

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desire for friendship. And I think when you have

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that approach to life where every person is valuable

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and everyone is a child of God and you want to be their friend,

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you become like a spiritual magnet. And people wanna hang

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out with you. They wanna be with you because they sense that you care,

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that you value them. So I've never said that

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before to anybody, but I kinda feel like that's one of the things that God

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has built upon is just a love for people. Yeah. And there's

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it kinda goes back to that heart issue we were talking about earlier is I

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I think hard hearts repel.

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Hard hearts repel, soft hearts attract. And and

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I and I think that layers in to what you were saying, which is

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interesting. I'd written the word humility next here on kind

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of my my list because you had brought it up earlier.

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And I and I don't wanna the way I'd like for the us to

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discuss humility because I believe what you just said is a

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description In some ways, maybe it's a character trait of humility.

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But what I'd love for you to if you could expand on, earlier you

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said you wanna be around people that are people of

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humility. You wanna surround yourself with that. And and

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one of the things I've noticed with myself and and I think you contrasted

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that with people that are loud public figures. They, you know, they

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were charismatic and things like that, and that might be a word you didn't

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use. It's a word I use. Yeah. I believe I'm better at it

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now, but I think years ago, I struggled with identifying humility

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in others, maybe because I struggled with it myself. But

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how do you gauge humility in

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others? Yeah. It's probably a lot different

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than what people would assume.

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They assume that if you're an introvert, you're humble.

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They assume if you are kind, you're humble.

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I think it's different than that. I think each one of us has

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an aura about us, and that

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aura speaks volumes. And and

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rarely do you have to use words for people to know whether or not you

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are someone who is full of themselves or not,

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whether that person is aloof? Do you have a humble aura

Speaker: 00:27:50

about you? I think it's that's where the Holy Spirit comes

Speaker: 00:27:53

in. I think it's the Holy Spirit that really reveals

Speaker: 00:27:57

what that individual is about and what he or she is

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about. So at least that's what that's been my

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experience, Tim. Really has been. I wanted to follow-up with what you said about

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the heart, and I I do believe the heart is the foundation that God builds

Speaker: 00:28:12

upon. And if the heart is flawed, God

Speaker: 00:28:15

can only build so tall because it will

Speaker: 00:28:19

collapse under the ego of that foundation. And so

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I think it's imperative that you really have a heart after

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God. You have a heart that's solid because that is the

Speaker: 00:28:30

foundation that the Lord will build your business, your church,

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or your organization around. And what's interesting about that over the last few

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years, the Lord has been working on me. I had my father passed away, and

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we've had some situations in in family and

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all. And also even with COVID and things like that. I asked a

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lot of questions of the Lord too. It's like, Lord, what is going on here?

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What's happening? And he kept bringing me back to

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thinking eternally. And that from an eternal

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perspective, the condition of my heart is the most important thing.

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And for for a guy who's an industrial and systems

Speaker: 00:29:06

engineer, time is important. Deadlines are important. I

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I work with leaders and leadership teams. You know, I I I can

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get to thinking about a lot of other things,

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and, that reminder is is very healthy.

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I have found when I force myself to

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overlook that character trait of humility and do

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business with people or interact with people that

Speaker: 00:29:33

may not have that character foundation. I'm not saying

Speaker: 00:29:37

anybody's perfect. We all have, you know, flare ups and situations. But

Speaker: 00:29:41

can you talk a little bit about that, especially touching all the people you do

Speaker: 00:29:45

with your organization? How important is it to work

Speaker: 00:29:49

with people that have some humility?

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Yeah. I think it's important to work with people who are like minded,

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who understand the mission. There are a number of organizations,

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individuals that we've chosen not to work with, not because it

Speaker: 00:30:05

wouldn't be profitable, but just because we know

Speaker: 00:30:08

that eventually there's gonna be a train record. Let's find people

Speaker: 00:30:12

who are like minded, who are after the same things,

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who aren't after the credit, who aren't after personal gain, but are

Speaker: 00:30:20

after the mission. I could give you many examples of that, where we've been very

Speaker: 00:30:23

careful to make sure we align ourselves with people who we believe

Speaker: 00:30:27

in. And I like to say it this way, that if we're not willing to

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hand them the microphone in front of our constituents and our

Speaker: 00:30:34

donors, then they're probably not someone that we want to be working

Speaker: 00:30:37

with. That's, for me, a litmus test. Will I hand them the

Speaker: 00:30:41

microphone k. And let them talk? One of the things

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I'll ask it this way. How are you

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defining success today? And then

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maybe go back in time. I don't know if it's 30 years ago or 20

Speaker: 00:30:59

years ago or I I think at the age of 50, we'll talk a little

Speaker: 00:31:02

bit about the catalyst, I think, for the book. Yeah. But how are you

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defining success either then or now in contrast if it's different?

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Yeah. It's much different. Like I said before, in the early days, I was certainly

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self reliant as opposed to god reliant. I thought I really

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measured success by the accolades of other people, not necessarily,

Speaker: 00:31:21

the favor of God, but the accolades of people around me.

Speaker: 00:31:25

That's a really dangerous path. In the book, I say

Speaker: 00:31:28

that, success is more dangerous than failure. It is for

Speaker: 00:31:32

that simple reason, is that you can get full of yourself, and you

Speaker: 00:31:36

can begin to rely on yourself and not be willing to even give God a

Speaker: 00:31:39

vote when you're trying to make decisions. And so, yeah, I would definitely

Speaker: 00:31:43

fall into that category. But again, that goes back to my childhood.

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I'm trying to escape poverty. I'm trying to escape inferiority

Speaker: 00:31:51

and trying to escape all the things that I hated as a

Speaker: 00:31:54

teen. And so, you know, that compels you to do things that you probably

Speaker: 00:31:58

shouldn't do. And so along the way, you know, I guess I've learned

Speaker: 00:32:02

to use restraint and, to give God a vote. Success

Speaker: 00:32:06

for me today is something that I'm sure that many people already know.

Speaker: 00:32:10

It's obedience. It's obedience. A lot of people are after a

Speaker: 00:32:14

balanced life. I'm after an obedient life. Because

Speaker: 00:32:17

if you're obedient, you're going to be balanced. If you're doing what God's asking

Speaker: 00:32:21

you to do, you will live a balanced life. And so for

Speaker: 00:32:25

me, success is equal to obedience.

Speaker: 00:32:28

And what are some if I'm around you

Speaker: 00:32:32

either as your wife or I know you've got children or people that are

Speaker: 00:32:36

in your close circles, what are some ways

Speaker: 00:32:40

or clues that they know that you're being obedient? Either

Speaker: 00:32:43

practices or anything like that? Because

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obedience is a word we use quite a bit in church circles, and I'm

Speaker: 00:32:51

not sure that a lot of us translate that to a practical day to day.

Speaker: 00:32:54

What does that look like for you? Yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:58

Typically, what they'll my wife and my children, we have 4 daughters,

Speaker: 00:33:02

and they will identify this. They'll they'll identify

Speaker: 00:33:06

the fact that I am that my schedule is outrageous,

Speaker: 00:33:10

and they're willing to tell me that. They will,

Speaker: 00:33:14

that I look tired and, you know, or,

Speaker: 00:33:18

hey, dad, you're not around. You're just you're traveling too much. It's

Speaker: 00:33:21

those kind of things that let them know that, you know, I've gotten out of

Speaker: 00:33:25

balance, and I'm not living in obedience. I'm living in an

Speaker: 00:33:29

ambition and, you know, reckless ambition is a very dangerous thing

Speaker: 00:33:32

as well. And I certainly have lived through that in my lifetime.

Speaker: 00:33:36

Mhmm. I remember during the nineties, I was

Speaker: 00:33:39

extremely proud and prideful of the fact that I

Speaker: 00:33:43

lived off very little sleep. There was a picture

Speaker: 00:33:47

that our, daughter did. I think it was in kindergarten

Speaker: 00:33:51

or something where she was a family picture, and

Speaker: 00:33:55

my dad's eyes were red.

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Yeah. And the teacher even asked her, said, oh, you know,

Speaker: 00:34:04

your dad's eyes are red. She goes, well, that's what color they are. They're

Speaker: 00:34:08

red all the time. And I was

Speaker: 00:34:11

somewhat prideful of that, about how

Speaker: 00:34:15

little sleep I needed. And, you know, and some of

Speaker: 00:34:19

us have even said absolutely silly things, Hal. Like,

Speaker: 00:34:22

I'll sleep when I die, and, you know, I'm doing the things

Speaker: 00:34:26

that God needs me to do so he can equip me. But I think when

Speaker: 00:34:30

we use words like ambition and success and

Speaker: 00:34:34

achievement for people that describe people like

Speaker: 00:34:37

you and others, there's other a lot of others out there, there are

Speaker: 00:34:41

words that can creep in like like hustle

Speaker: 00:34:45

and, you know, like you mentioned

Speaker: 00:34:49

earlier, a 120%. And and and I've even

Speaker: 00:34:53

I've even observed that a lot of people kinda

Speaker: 00:34:57

have some addictions related to that. That's a strong word. But

Speaker: 00:35:00

we can be addicted to busyness, to achievement,

Speaker: 00:35:04

to more. My addiction was more, truthfully. It

Speaker: 00:35:08

wasn't drugs. It wasn't I just was addicted to more.

Speaker: 00:35:12

Are there any of those that you've identified that that you had? Because

Speaker: 00:35:15

someone doesn't do 30 years just

Speaker: 00:35:19

cruising along. There's something that's making that motor, that

Speaker: 00:35:23

engine inside them run, and it may not always be healthy.

Speaker: 00:35:28

Yeah. I think for me, it it was it is to this day.

Speaker: 00:35:33

Again, a love for people and a desire to help

Speaker: 00:35:36

people escape poverty. It's, all these

Speaker: 00:35:40

things that we all believe in. But even in doing

Speaker: 00:35:44

good things, we can overdo it.

Speaker: 00:35:48

I found myself I'm traveling all over the world, Tim. I'm in Afghanistan,

Speaker: 00:35:52

Indonesia, Philippines, Africa, South America,

Speaker: 00:35:56

all over the world to feed the hungry and, you know, to

Speaker: 00:36:00

help them escape poverty. But I was doing things that God

Speaker: 00:36:03

wasn't asking me to do. And meanwhile, I

Speaker: 00:36:07

was missing amazing opportunities to invest in my children

Speaker: 00:36:11

and my wife's. And so again, just because you're doing

Speaker: 00:36:15

something really good, it doesn't mean that God's asking you to do

Speaker: 00:36:19

it. That certainly was the case for me. I think for a lot of

Speaker: 00:36:22

times, a lot of people, and I have the opportunity to talk to a lot

Speaker: 00:36:25

of leaders and pastors, And I think a lot of it is, less

Speaker: 00:36:29

about ambition and more about boredom that they're trying to,

Speaker: 00:36:33

really run away from boredom and to keep their life

Speaker: 00:36:36

occupied. And I think that's one of the things that I have

Speaker: 00:36:40

experienced that I I've learned to, maybe enjoy the quiet a

Speaker: 00:36:44

little bit more and the time with God,

Speaker: 00:36:48

or with my wife or with my daughters and just to

Speaker: 00:36:52

enjoy that and not take it for granted. And I think there

Speaker: 00:36:56

are a lot of leaders that are they're actually running away from boredom maybe

Speaker: 00:36:59

more than they are ambitious. I I know I I think it was the

Speaker: 00:37:03

age of 50 you had a bit of a health scare. But is some of

Speaker: 00:37:07

that also just age or maturity

Speaker: 00:37:11

or things like that? We're just finally

Speaker: 00:37:15

getting it? Yeah. I I really do think

Speaker: 00:37:19

so. And I think the older you get, the more you realize what

Speaker: 00:37:22

really matters in life, you know, going back to the title of the book.

Speaker: 00:37:26

But yeah, at age 50, I found myself,

Speaker: 00:37:30

laying in a hospital bed with heart issues. They had to put 2 stents on

Speaker: 00:37:33

my heart. And laying there, I just really felt convicted that I was trying to

Speaker: 00:37:37

do too much, but God really made that very clear I was trying to do

Speaker: 00:37:40

too much. When I was released from the hospital, I resigned one of my

Speaker: 00:37:44

jobs. I stepped off of 8 board of directors. I canceled 2

Speaker: 00:37:48

book writing contracts, and I gave really focus to

Speaker: 00:37:52

Convoy and to my family. And I can tell you

Speaker: 00:37:55

the irony of all of that is that when I made those decisions,

Speaker: 00:38:00

God began to do so much more than I ever could. You know, one of

Speaker: 00:38:03

the thing there's 2 biblical stories that pop in my head

Speaker: 00:38:07

here, and then I'll I'll pose it as a question. But

Speaker: 00:38:12

I've I've studied the gospels quite a bit, and with the background I

Speaker: 00:38:15

mentioned earlier, hustle, hustle, grind, grind, you know, that some of

Speaker: 00:38:19

us have lived through. I don't

Speaker: 00:38:23

see that Jesus ever really hustled that

Speaker: 00:38:26

much. We could tell had about 3 years

Speaker: 00:38:31

ish for his, what we would call his ministry.

Speaker: 00:38:35

They walked everywhere, didn't cover much really ground.

Speaker: 00:38:38

Obviously, he never got on an airplane. I guess so.

Speaker: 00:38:42

Right. Right. And, and I never I

Speaker: 00:38:46

haven't found a scripture where it says, you know, and Jesus, you know, yelled to

Speaker: 00:38:49

the disciples, alright, guys. You know, pull up the tunics. We gotta pick it up

Speaker: 00:38:52

and put it down to get over to Capernaum here. I just I

Speaker: 00:38:56

never see that. And so that's one example. And then I I I

Speaker: 00:38:59

recently interviewed a pastor, Troy Grambling, where he'd written a book called

Speaker: 00:39:03

Potential, and he used the story of Moses. And

Speaker: 00:39:07

and as best we know, Moses spent 40 years in

Speaker: 00:39:11

the palace, 40 years on the backside of the desert, and then 40

Speaker: 00:39:15

years with the people of Israel. And during

Speaker: 00:39:19

that 40 years in the desert, it seems as if he did nothing.

Speaker: 00:39:23

And so I pose this as a question to a high achiever.

Speaker: 00:39:27

Big organization. We have a lot of list

Speaker: 00:39:31

leaders. Is doing nothing an option

Speaker: 00:39:35

at times? Definitely.

Speaker: 00:39:40

There are times when doing nothing is better than doing something. But most

Speaker: 00:39:44

of the time, doing something is better than doing nothing.

Speaker: 00:39:47

And I use Jesus as the marvel because when you

Speaker: 00:39:51

look at his life, he didn't heal everyone. He didn't feed everyone. He

Speaker: 00:39:55

didn't meet every need. What did He do? He did what His father

Speaker: 00:39:58

asked Him to do. And that's why prayer is such an important

Speaker: 00:40:02

component of our lives. You can't meet every need,

Speaker: 00:40:05

but you wanna do what God is asking you to do. And

Speaker: 00:40:09

so that's why you need to be willing to work and to help

Speaker: 00:40:13

and to do the work to help people. But you also need to back that

Speaker: 00:40:17

up with prayer so that you make sure that you're doing the right thing at

Speaker: 00:40:20

the right time. Yeah. One thing that jumped out at me while I was reading

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through the book also is and this is maybe transitioning

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into a little bit of a leadership discussion around how you've operated

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at at Convoy of Hope. I I

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I coach for profit businesses and I also work with some leadership teams and

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some ministries. And I have found that it is

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very difficult for some people to operate in a

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board structure with a board. And and I kept

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seeing story after story of you interacting with your

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board. And I think it relates to what we just talked

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about. How do you know when to do something, when to do nothing, and

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things like that. I think I I definitely am not taking away from prayer, but

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if if the board is praying and if you're praying and all of that. But

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I I would love for you right now because there are people listening in that

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they think that having a board is just a legal structure and

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you want them in place and you don't want them to ever get control over

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whatever because they've seen stories like that. And then and then they also don't

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really consider them sounding boards and things like that.

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Talk about what a health because I perceive that you have a

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healthy board structure and relationship. Talk

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about that at Convoy just for people that may need some

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help in those areas. Yeah. Well,

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Tim, you're speaking my language because, I believe that

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governance is part of that foundation. And why is governance so

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important? Proper governance, what we call shared governance between the

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executive team and the board of directors. Why is that so important? It's because

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of accountability, but you do not want to build a ministry

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of this size around a personality. You really want

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to build it around a leadership team. And that's why I

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think board selection is so critical. Even if you are small,

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it's critical. And at convoy, we use a

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matrix of source. We want to make sure that we have adequate diversity

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and that can be gender diversity. It can be vocational, it can be geographic,

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can be denominational. And to make sure that we're filling in all the

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boxes, if you will. And so that kind of board

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selection is critical because if you select the right board members, it's

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going to prevent a lot of problems, down the road. You choose the wrong

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people. A lot of times churches, and I would say even organizations,

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businesses, they choose people who have the most money, who can give the most

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money. That's not criterion for a board

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seat. Really what you want on a board is people who are wise, who

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have a diversity of skill sets, and people who hear from

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God. That's what you're looking for. What they

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can give is really irrelevant. I think at convoy, you know,

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we've tried to live that out for many, many years. What's

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the relationship? Some people believe that a board is there for an annual

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meeting, and that's about it. But I I get the feeling there's a lot more

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there between not just you, but the leadership team that's the

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organization and then also the board. What are some of the rhythms or

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relationships that are there that you have that have led

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to y'all success? Yeah. Well, I think it's

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first really identifying what are the board responsibilities and what are the

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executive team responsibilities. So I think having a good understanding of

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that and how those two entities interact is critical

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on the board side. You know, that they are the keepers of the mission.

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They're the ones that have to make sure that the organization is

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staying on mission and not experiencing mission creed. The

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second thing that they are responsible for is fiscal responsibility,

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making sure that this is an organization that is financially

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sound. And because that will give longevity, that will

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allow the mission to continue long after current leadership

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is gone. And I think a third area would be making sure that the

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people that are a part of that ministry are well cared for, Making

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sure that and a lot of organizations, I think they leave that to the executive

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team. I believe that the the the board actually has a responsibility

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to make sure that all these people, there's 100 of people that make up an

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organization, in Convoy's case, 100 of thousands of

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volunteers, making sure that they're well taken care of.

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Those are just a few of the things. Obviously, they make decisions. They make fiscal

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responsibility type decisions on a regular basis, but I

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think it's caring for the people that's often overlooked. The

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reason that's such a good nugget for people to understand

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if you're a board member, I'm on the board of a few ministry organizations. You

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are also. And I think I've always looked at it as

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a fiduciary responsibility to, protect, oversee

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the assets of the organization. And I do think that a lot of

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people ignore the key asset of the people.

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So very powerful there. One other

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thing well, maybe not one other thing, but something that was just curious to

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me as I was reading about Convoy is I

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being kind of an operations guy, I'm a systems engineer, went to Georgia

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Tech, all that type stuff. I I look at an

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organization like Convoy, and I go, wow.

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They are doing a lot on what I would call a regular

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day to day basis, and then they have what I would call the

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response, the response,

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items that come up. And, and I guess even share

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some of the recent responses. But I would love for you to talk a

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little bit about overseeing, leading

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an organization that has day to day feeding

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x amount of people, that we're gonna do that regardless of what's happening in the

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world. And then a hurricane goes through and

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they're flooding in North Carolina and we wanna do something there.

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I don't wanna say 2 different mindsets, but there's 2 different operations

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in my eye mind that's going on there. Well,

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I think that's very astute, and that's accurate. You know, in our case,

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our disaster relief team is a separate division,

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and they are like a fire station. If we have

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dozens and dozens of trucks and different shower trucks and we have

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debris removal trucks and tractors, we got a lot of equipment, but

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it's like a fire station. They're ready to go at a moment's notice.

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Everything is gassed up. It's ready to pull out of the facility

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and they often do at a moment's notice. So I

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would say fire station. But here's the other piece of it I think that's really

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interesting is that we budget for the maintenance of those

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people and for the department and the equipment. But we don't budget

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for disasters. And here's the reason why, Tim, is because

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if you do that, you're going to be hoarding tens of 1,000,000 of dollars

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waiting for the next Katrina or the next Ukraine or the next,

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Helene and Milton. You know, you're gonna be hoarding 1,000,000 of dollars, and

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we don't believe that God has called us to do that. When our team is

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deployed like they are right now, they're in 6 states

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responding to Helene and Milton, and we don't want them worrying about

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money. Their focus is to lift up the name of

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Jesus, to elevate the local church, and to make sure that we're

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meeting needs, whatever that costs.

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That's really the goal, is go and do

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and represent Jesus in some very dark times, dark

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places. And we believe that if we are willing to do

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that, that on the back end, God will pay the bill. And he's been doing

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that for over 20 years since we've been involved in disaster response.

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And I think we're approaching it's near a 1000

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disasters that we've been involved in, everything you can imagine around the

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world and in the US. And I think last year alone was over

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70, 80 disasters that we responded to. But in

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H1, it's we're not we're not dependent

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on CNN, Fox, MSNBC. You

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know, we wanna be the first on the ground, and we wanna be the last

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to leave. Because a lot of times, organizations

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leave disaster zones because they can't raise any more money. We

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don't wanna be driven by money. We wanna be driven by obedience and need.

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Mhmm. That's good. Because one of the other things that come to my mind

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is that in general, my observation, you can tell me if this is

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correct, people will often

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give to the event, especially the major event,

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sometimes more diligently than they will

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for that child that needs food every day.

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What can you say about that just when I bring that up?

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It's very true, and that's one of the reasons why we have a global program

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division, and we have a disaster, response division.

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And the reason for that is that we want the people who give the global

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program who are really sustaining that initiative to

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continue and stay focused on that. And if they wanna give a one time

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gift to disaster service in response to hurricane Elaine or

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Milton, for example, that's beautiful. That's great. A lot of

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churches, a lot of businesses, do that. They give the one time

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gift. And we thank God for that, because it's that giving that

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sustains us for the long haul. I don't mind telling

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you, there are disasters that happened 2 years ago. Convoy of hope is

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still there. We are still helping people put their lives back together,

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and it's sustained by the generosity of people. If you're doing the right

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thing in the wake of disasters, elevating local church, lifting up

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Jesus, meeting needs, we believe God will pay the bill, and as

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long as you're willing to stay, he will sustain you. We've seen him

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do miracles. Convoy of Hope is an organization through the years that

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just has experienced miracle after miracle.

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And we like to say around here, hey. We're just following the miracles.

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That's what we do. So how you are

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following the miracles and somewhere along the way, you've been writing, it sounds

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like, a good portion of your life, but yet

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you write something that's titled What Really Matters.

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And and it's a book that I I like the subtitle is how to care

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for yourself and serve a hurting world. How do

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you reconcile caring for yourself and

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serving and caring for others? I used to think that caring for

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myself was unnecessary, that basically

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almost abusing myself and traveling all over the world and doing all I was

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doing that. That was a necessary sacrifice in, in order for

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the mission to be fulfilled. And I guess I got to the realization

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where I, I, again, through the health crisis I had at age

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50, I began to realize taking care of yourself is not an act of

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selfishness. It's an act of selflessness.

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Because the healthier I am, the healthier you

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are, the more you're gonna be able to do for other people.

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And God does not expect us to run with an empty

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gas tank. We're gonna be able to do a lot more for people when that

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gas tank is full. So I think that realization was

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one of the things that happened at age 50 that has really transformed my

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life. Who is who would you say this book is

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for? Did you have an audience in mind as you were writing it?

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I did. I'll tell you what was happening, and and this is really what provoked

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the book. Because of Convoy of Hope's rapid growth, you know, I think

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35 on the Forbes list, I was getting a lot of

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calls from pastors and business leaders and organizational

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leaders, and they were wanting to know the secret sauce. And,

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invariably I would say, well, it's the heart. You gotta make sure your heart's sound.

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It's it's healthy. If your heart is healthy, then God will build upon

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it. And they would say things like, well, I get that, but what are the

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organizational adjustments that I need to make? I said, no, it's really about

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the heart, and that's where it starts. So I figured, Tim, rather than me just

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being a broken record, I just wanna write a book, and I'll just slip it

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in the mail to them. So now when I get those questions, just send them

Speaker: 00:52:20

a book. The cool thing is I believe you've done

Speaker: 00:52:24

some ghostwriting and writing for people, but you also had someone

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that helped you out with this book. And I think is it Lindsay? Did

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it tell me a little bit about that process.

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Yeah. Lindsay's my oldest daughter. She's a trained lawyer,

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and, she is an amazing researcher

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and a gifted writer her own her own right. She's,

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someone I'm really proud of. And the whole process was

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that, she and I put the outline together and she goes after

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the research and everything from scriptures to other

Speaker: 00:52:59

things that we cite in the book. Yeah, she's been invaluable. And this is actually

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the 3rd book we've written together. And we have a system in place. And

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I don't know that we're going to do another one real soon, but we've got

Speaker: 00:53:09

a system in place and she's really a benefit. Excellent.

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Well, I wanna share my favorite chapter is chapter 9. I've actually

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got page 153 pulled up. And one of our

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topics we just have constantly addressed here

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on seek co create is kinda taking

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care of yourself. And it really you you kinda go

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into sleep and things like that, which I talked about earlier. I used to have

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a, a a very, unhealthy

Speaker: 00:53:38

badge of honor of lack of sleep. Sleep's important to me

Speaker: 00:53:41

now. Rest is important to me now. I'm I'm not ashamed to

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say I like a good night's sleep, and I don't mind a nap every once

Speaker: 00:53:49

in a while. Hal, at 60, almost 61 years old, I'm I'm good with

Speaker: 00:53:52

that. So, anyway, excellent job with the book. I'm sure

Speaker: 00:53:56

people can find it in all the places, Amazons and all. Anything else about where

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people connect with you or the book that you wanna share? If

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they want more information about Convoy of Hope, they can just go to convoy of

Speaker: 00:54:07

hope, dot org. We look forward to hearing from them. Excellent, Hal,

Speaker: 00:54:11

and appreciate all that you've done and appreciate you writing this book. I think it's

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valuable for leaders. I think it's a message that they all need.

Speaker: 00:54:18

Every leader I deal with, they need to slow down, be more

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obedient, be still and quiet. How we're seek, go

Speaker: 00:54:25

create, those three words. And I know with your

Speaker: 00:54:29

scriptural background, you can guess where they probably came from, but I'm gonna

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allow you to choose one. This is my final question. Seek, go, or

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create, and why? Oh, I I I love the word

Speaker: 00:54:39

create. And I I used to think, Tim, that we that,

Speaker: 00:54:43

you know, we could create simply by making organizational

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adjustments. But I I think the older I've gotten, the more

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experience I've had. I I think you invite, you know,

Speaker: 00:54:54

innovation. You invite creation by having, the right

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mindset, the right heart. And certainly, that's what we try to do at Convoy.

Speaker: 00:55:02

So I love the word create. I appreciate people listening in. It's been a great

Speaker: 00:55:05

conversation of depth for people of achievement

Speaker: 00:55:09

mindset, people that are leaders, or someone that may even wanna

Speaker: 00:55:13

help and support the, Ministry Convoy of Hope. We have

Speaker: 00:55:16

new episodes here every Monday. We are on YouTube. We're on all the

Speaker: 00:55:20

podcast platforms. Until next time, continue

Speaker: 00:55:24

being all that you were created to be.