Systemizing Growth: Helping Businesses Scale and Thrive with Josh Fonger

Josh Fonger: 00:00:00

He said when he was less in the office.

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The company would grow more because he was more of the visionary.

Josh Fonger: 00:00:07

He almost disrupt things too much.

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And so if we can make the visionary feel comfortable with the day

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to day, they can actually do more growth, by not being there.

Josh Fonger: 00:00:18

Because the, the machine will run better with less adjustments.

Tim Winders: 00:00:35

Welcome to Seek, Go, Create.

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This is your host, Tim Winders.

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This is where we redefine success in leadership, business, and ministry,

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sharing topics, stories, and conversations that just allow us to rethink how we live.

Tim Winders: 00:00:48

Work and lead great conversation today.

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I'm excited to have Josh Fonger.

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He's a consultant coach and speaker who's recognized as a leading authority

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in business performance architecture, and he helps business owners.

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I love these words, simplify, systemize, and generate powerful growth.

Tim Winders: 00:01:07

He's building thriving businesses, families, and communities.

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Josh, welcome to seek, go create.

Josh Fonger: 00:01:13

Hey, glad to be here, Tim.

Tim Winders: 00:01:15

I'm glad that you're here too.

Tim Winders: 00:01:16

And, I'm excited that we get to have this conversation.

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I'm a systems guy.

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I mentioned it right before we hit record.

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I'm a, I'm an industrial, my degree is industrial and systems engineering.

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And I feel like we're going to have some discussion about some systems

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here, but before we dive into all of that, Let's just say we bump into each

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other at church or on a plane somewhere.

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And I ask you, we don't know each other.

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And I ask you what you do.

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What do you tell people when they ask you what you do?

Josh Fonger: 00:01:47

Yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:01:47

I just say I'm a Christian business consultant and they

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usually say, what does that mean?

Josh Fonger: 00:01:52

And then I say, help small business owners break free from the day to day chaos by

Josh Fonger: 00:01:58

getting control of their business systems.

Tim Winders: 00:02:02

All right.

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So there's one thing that's really interesting you added

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there that I think I saw it in one of the things I read about you.

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You put in front of all that you do the Christian, the term Christian.

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And I'm curious, do you do that all the time?

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This is not like a condemning question either, by the way,

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I'm not, this is not judgy.

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So let's take that off the table.

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Do you do that all the time?

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Or is it some of the time?

Tim Winders: 00:02:25

Do you just Have a nudge or when do you and because I think you've got

Tim Winders: 00:02:29

it on LinkedIn also, but How and when do you add that term christian?

Josh Fonger: 00:02:34

Yeah, that's a great question.

Josh Fonger: 00:02:35

And, it's been, my wife asked me this question.

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She says, you've been doing this business consulting, trying to, emulate, display,

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glorify God in everything you do.

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But how often do people actually know that's what you're trying to do?

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And I realized, and I've been a lot of podcasts, and I try to share

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something about my relationship with God during these episodes.

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And a lot of times the question doesn't come, they'll ask you about

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a checklist or a procedure or how to make something more efficient.

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and I just came to the conclusion that if I don't put it right in the

Josh Fonger: 00:03:06

beginning, It might not come up.

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And, I guess people like you permission to ask me questions.

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And for about half my clients and most people I talked to on podcast,

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they aren't that interested.

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That's not something they're curious about.

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And so they don't ask me about it, but that's been a very recent shift,

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in that, I'm going to actually.

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not to be ashamed of who I am, who God made me, I need to put it out there and

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give people an opportunity to respond.

Tim Winders: 00:03:35

Yeah, the reason I like it and the reason I asked the question

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is i've gone back and forth on that myself I think if I go to my website

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now and go to some of the bios and all of them written i've added something

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like And I hope this isn't wishy washy.

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I sought the lord for this.

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I've added something like faith driven executive coach or something.

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I added it because one of the things that I desire is I want

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people to ask me questions and also want to be able to lead with it.

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And I sometimes I'll give you a good example.

Tim Winders: 00:04:08

A while back, I was trying to decide what to put on some social media channels.

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And I'm sure you've gone through similar things.

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what is my title?

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What do I put there?

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family, family, man, father, now I'm a grandfather, all that kind of stuff.

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and I, it was when I was trying to identify what my roles were.

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And I remember going to Tim Tebow's, I think it was his Instagram page.

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And what was fascinating is as his I guess his role there.

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He just had athlete but yet We all know where tim tebow stands with his fate

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and i've always just i've been intrigued by that and it's not a I don't think

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there's right or wrong answers But I do want to say and I and we're going to go

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ahead and layer it in here We're going to talk a lot about systems But, see,

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I believe that part of what we're doing here is we're creating order out of chaos.

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And I think that is the entire biblical story.

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And so what we're doing is a practical application of

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a bigger biblical narrative.

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And so I applaud you for putting Christian there and we're gonna, we probably will

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bring it up again before we're done here.

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So thanks for answering that.

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now one of the thing to kind of a logistics thing, you've just

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moved to my old home state.

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you're up in the, I think the mountains of North Georgia and, and that sounds

Tim Winders: 00:05:32

like it's a recent move for you.

Tim Winders: 00:05:34

Just curious what brought you to Georgia because I don't get around there much.

Tim Winders: 00:05:38

In fact, I just visited and I needed to get away from the humidity.

Tim Winders: 00:05:42

I won't go into details there, but I just left there.

Tim Winders: 00:05:45

Okay.

Josh Fonger: 00:05:47

Yeah, we spent most of our life in, Arizona and Oregon, and

Josh Fonger: 00:05:53

then through a long story that I'll cut short, we end up in Kauai, and we

Josh Fonger: 00:05:57

were in Kauai for a year and realized that, It was time to settle down,

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time to settle down with the kids.

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We've got four kids and, after praying about it, we ended up in Chattanooga and

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in that area and, looking for houses.

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We looked in the Chattanooga area.

Josh Fonger: 00:06:12

We liked it there.

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And the epicenter of our search became wider and wider.

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And then eventually, we had a list of things that we were praying

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about in terms of where we wanted to live and this little town called L.

Josh Fonger: 00:06:24

A.

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J.

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Just, on the Appalachian mountains rate that the south tip of it, kept up, kept

Josh Fonger: 00:06:29

coming up and then a house popped up and we were like, This is the one it,

Josh Fonger: 00:06:35

essentially we saw it and, 30 days later we moved in and it was a confirmation of

Josh Fonger: 00:06:40

a prayer that we had made for a long time, but I verbalize it to my parents who are

Josh Fonger: 00:06:47

not believers about 45 days before I said.

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for our 20 year anniversary, I want to, celebrate with my wife in a new house

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and don't think that's going to happen.

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There's all these reasons why it's not going to happen.

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Like logically, no chance really.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:03

That's my prayer.

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I tell my parents, I'm like, Oh, that sounds nice.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:06

and then 40 days later, we were there right before anniversary.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:10

So it, anyways, we just know we're supposed to be here.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:12

We don't know why yet.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:12

We've only been here a few months, but, we love it.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:14

It's great.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:15

kids love it.

Josh Fonger: 00:07:15

And we're just happy to see what God has for us next.

Tim Winders: 00:07:18

congratulations.

Tim Winders: 00:07:18

That's a beautiful part of the world.

Tim Winders: 00:07:20

My wife and I've been traveling now for almost 10 years and one of the

Tim Winders: 00:07:24

most beautiful spots in the world.

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There's a lot of them, by the way, but the world is a beautiful place.

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But the, the portion in North Georgia there, when especially the time of year,

Tim Winders: 00:07:33

we're recording this in late August, the last day of August, probably, people can

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start checking this out in September.

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This episode, but that fall time of year, you're about to see some beautiful things.

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If you were in Chattanooga area, you saw some of it.

Tim Winders: 00:07:46

and the cool thing is, I think this kind of leads into the type work you

Tim Winders: 00:07:49

do and all that you, you mentioned you homeschooled your children, which is cool.

Tim Winders: 00:07:53

We did that with our children.

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They're grown now, but your work is also not geographic specific.

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So tell me more about the type work you do.

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And I think that's going to lead into some of our.

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Systems conversations and some of the deeper things that a lot of

Tim Winders: 00:08:07

people might be tuning into here

Josh Fonger: 00:08:09

yeah, definitely.

Josh Fonger: 00:08:10

you've got the book, I'll put it up here real quick.

Josh Fonger: 00:08:11

The book work, the system, which I didn't write.

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Sam Carpenter wrote it, is really the type of.

Josh Fonger: 00:08:17

Consulting and coaching.

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I do a method consulting and, the book is all about how to organize chaos.

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And it's written from a very personal, story, Sam Carpenter's story from

Josh Fonger: 00:08:30

working a hundred hour work weeks down to two hour work weeks and

Josh Fonger: 00:08:34

growing his income up 20 times.

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And how did he do that?

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And he mechanically details how he set structure in his

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business and made it happen.

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And so for me, as people read the book, hear about the book, listen to a podcast.

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They're intrigued and, they contact us through some method.

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And then I do a coaching or consulting, or I fly out there and help them

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and help organize their business.

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And I know this is a kind of a faith based show.

Josh Fonger: 00:09:03

So sometimes it is churches or church choirs, or, Christian organizations that,

Josh Fonger: 00:09:08

that want to build this structure in.

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And that's what I do.

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I help them make that a reality.

Tim Winders: 00:09:14

and I read in the back of the book There's actually a section where you

Tim Winders: 00:09:19

give a number of examples case studies.

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I guess I think it's titled And one of the things I was wanting to do

Tim Winders: 00:09:25

Was get a feel for the type client or person that you work with and let

Tim Winders: 00:09:31

me just say I didn't really see a specific industry or anything like that.

Tim Winders: 00:09:37

This stuff crosses Systems type Implementation crosses all industries

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and organizations, correct?

Josh Fonger: 00:09:48

it does.

Josh Fonger: 00:09:49

And unfortunately that makes my life way more complicated because it'd

Josh Fonger: 00:09:53

be nice if it was like, Hey, this is just for restaurants or this is just

Josh Fonger: 00:09:56

for, hair salons, whatever it is.

Josh Fonger: 00:09:58

but we've had them all over 300 industries or a thousand clients.

Josh Fonger: 00:10:03

It, it touches.

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I guess probably the best way to explain it is, we work with leaders or business

Josh Fonger: 00:10:09

owners or organizational leaders, who they have, they maxed out on their time.

Josh Fonger: 00:10:15

They've maxed on the resources that max out on their money.

Josh Fonger: 00:10:17

and they realize they just can't, they can't grow.

Josh Fonger: 00:10:21

They can't go beyond where they are because, everything's in their

Josh Fonger: 00:10:24

head and the stress has reached, a critical point and they know.

Josh Fonger: 00:10:30

If they're going to expand, another location or expand the organization or

Josh Fonger: 00:10:33

pass it down, they've got to get what's in their head and in their team's head

Josh Fonger: 00:10:38

into some kind of format, some kind of structure so that they can grow

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from there, they can scale from there.

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And so we, we get clients when they've.

Josh Fonger: 00:10:46

They've hit that trigger point.

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Maybe they're key operations manager, Lee left.

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Maybe they're one of their key employees.

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it's pregnant and is going to be leaving the company.

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They're like, now what do we do?

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Or sometimes it's rougher situations where it's a family business and

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there's a divorce or there's a death in the family or something like that.

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And they say, you know what?

Josh Fonger: 00:11:05

We can't just pretend like the organization is going to keep going in

Josh Fonger: 00:11:09

this trajectory when we haven't actually written down how we do what we do.

Josh Fonger: 00:11:14

And, that's when we work with companies and, it's usually smaller companies,

Josh Fonger: 00:11:18

but, sometimes the larger companies.

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They had the same problem that they just wanted.

Josh Fonger: 00:11:25

It's less about getting the initial structure.

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It's more about fine tuning the structure, measuring the structure and managing with

Josh Fonger: 00:11:30

the structure that they're looking for.

Tim Winders: 00:11:32

I'm curious with large organizations.

Tim Winders: 00:11:34

I've found a sweet spot that I like to work with.

Tim Winders: 00:11:37

And the way I define it a little bit similar.

Tim Winders: 00:11:39

I've gotten to where I will only work with the leader or

Tim Winders: 00:11:44

the head of the organization.

Tim Winders: 00:11:46

I'm not going to jump down and work with teams or departments or things like

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that because often there's just too much resistance from other places and you

Tim Winders: 00:11:57

don't have the control type situation.

Tim Winders: 00:11:59

That's me.

Tim Winders: 00:12:00

and I also like it when there's some degree of a leadership team in place.

Tim Winders: 00:12:05

Doesn't have to be well defined, doesn't have to be super mature or advanced, but

Tim Winders: 00:12:09

there needs to be something else there.

Tim Winders: 00:12:11

And sometimes it would be a couple or something like that.

Tim Winders: 00:12:14

But, and then I found that there's a size and I haven't really pinpointed it that

Tim Winders: 00:12:19

I don't really want to get beyond that.

Tim Winders: 00:12:22

Because there are too many things that are entrenched and making

Tim Winders: 00:12:26

change is going to, it's going to be met with just a lot of resistance.

Tim Winders: 00:12:30

maybe we might be dancing or working around with similar type people.

Tim Winders: 00:12:36

Does that sound correct too?

Josh Fonger: 00:12:38

Yeah, it does.

Josh Fonger: 00:12:39

But I, for me, if somebody wants to help, I don't say, I don't say no.

Josh Fonger: 00:12:45

So I've got boundaries in how I'm going to help them, but I'm not

Josh Fonger: 00:12:48

going to, if someone comes to me and they're like, I've had some, pre

Josh Fonger: 00:12:51

revenue startups and I want to work with you, Get our systems in order.

Josh Fonger: 00:12:54

have you ever made a sale?

Josh Fonger: 00:12:55

No.

Josh Fonger: 00:12:56

Okay.

Josh Fonger: 00:12:57

we're going to, the way I'm going to implement this is going to be different

Josh Fonger: 00:12:59

because we're going to be taking more iterations, more experimentations,

Josh Fonger: 00:13:03

the system we build and we bury, on the back of a napkin as we build out

Josh Fonger: 00:13:07

this business and other companies.

Josh Fonger: 00:13:09

Complete opposite boards of directors and committees, and it's super complicated

Josh Fonger: 00:13:15

and it's difficult to get traction.

Josh Fonger: 00:13:17

but if they're bought into this philosophy and they're asking for help,

Josh Fonger: 00:13:21

I'm going to be there to help them in whatever that capacity is going to be.

Josh Fonger: 00:13:24

And yeah, I prefer to work with the owners and the CEOs if possible, but

Josh Fonger: 00:13:28

sometimes they say, you know what, I'm too busy work with the operations manager.

Josh Fonger: 00:13:32

And a lot of what I do is.

Josh Fonger: 00:13:34

Operational improvement.

Josh Fonger: 00:13:36

So I've had a lot of success with sometimes not always working with the

Josh Fonger: 00:13:40

visionary, but sometimes working with the person who's actually going to

Josh Fonger: 00:13:43

implement the structure and, hold the teams accountable to that structure.

Tim Winders: 00:13:48

So that brings up a great question.

Tim Winders: 00:13:49

I'm glad you brought that, you can have the visionary, you

Tim Winders: 00:13:51

could have the implementer.

Tim Winders: 00:13:52

The implementer in all likelihood is the person that is going to

Tim Winders: 00:13:58

get extremely excited about.

Tim Winders: 00:14:00

Systems my wife is wired For systems in fact, not too long before I clicked

Tim Winders: 00:14:09

record here before I jumped on the call I was going through the book and

Tim Winders: 00:14:14

I saw some of the items that would be the Processes procedures strategies

Tim Winders: 00:14:19

that are included and in the back of the book in the appendix and I said,

Tim Winders: 00:14:23

you know My comment was sweetheart.

Tim Winders: 00:14:24

You would love this checklist and everything like that She's got

Tim Winders: 00:14:28

her she's a scrum leader and she's an Agile, project manager person.

Tim Winders: 00:14:33

And she, she really loves lists, checklists, systematizing things.

Tim Winders: 00:14:38

And, and so the implementer would love this.

Tim Winders: 00:14:41

However, this is what I want to, this is a, that was a long winded

Tim Winders: 00:14:44

way to get into the question.

Tim Winders: 00:14:46

Oftentimes visionaries who it's usually a different person.

Tim Winders: 00:14:51

Sometimes it could be the same person, oftentimes a different person.

Tim Winders: 00:14:54

The visionary loves.

Tim Winders: 00:14:57

Let's just say they've got that entrepreneur feel.

Tim Winders: 00:14:59

They love the energy of new stuff.

Tim Winders: 00:15:02

they love the lack of, boundaries and structure and things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:15:08

And I, I all often joke that entrepreneurs.

Tim Winders: 00:15:13

are people that really Have attention deficit disorder and they're just really

Tim Winders: 00:15:17

always looking for the next thing to go after so Talk about the tension and this

Tim Winders: 00:15:21

is going to lead into the mindset of systems So i'm not asking that yet, but

Tim Winders: 00:15:26

talk about the tension, I guess between someone who Really loves the checklist

Tim Winders: 00:15:32

and all like my wife and then someone who even though i'm a systems person I love

Tim Winders: 00:15:36

a little bit of the art the flow the new stuff Maybe even a little bit of messy.

Tim Winders: 00:15:41

So how challenging is that when we're looking at this kind of stuff?

Josh Fonger: 00:15:47

It's extremely challenging.

Josh Fonger: 00:15:48

And, once I started working with the client, I try to.

Josh Fonger: 00:15:51

Read who they are, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:15:53

So oftentimes the smaller companies that they are more of the technician

Josh Fonger: 00:15:57

that they actually like doing the work and their issue is I'll let

Josh Fonger: 00:16:01

them know is there is no visionary.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:04

There is nobody who's actually expanded business.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:05

There's no one who's actually.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:07

Looking out two to five years.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:09

And so I need to get them out of the day to day by systemizing

Josh Fonger: 00:16:15

and delegating what they do.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:16

So they can't be more of a visionary, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:16:18

In the case of companies that are larger than they have a visionary.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:21

I'm less inclined to push them into the day to day structure.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:25

I'm more inclined to say.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:27

I do need you as a visionary to set the vision clearly in writing,

Josh Fonger: 00:16:32

but beyond that, I need you to just agree with this vision and

Josh Fonger: 00:16:37

you can stay out of the day to day.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:38

the more you're gone and Sam Carpenter righteous in his book.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:41

And he and I talk all the time.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:43

He said when he was less in the office.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:46

The company would grow more because he was more of the visionary.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:50

He almost disrupt things too much.

Josh Fonger: 00:16:52

And so if we can make the visionary feel comfortable with the day

Josh Fonger: 00:16:56

to day, they can actually do more growth, by not being there.

Josh Fonger: 00:17:01

Because the, the machine will run better with less adjustments.

Josh Fonger: 00:17:06

And so I do try to let people know that.

Josh Fonger: 00:17:08

And then ultimately, the way we push this methodology is we let them know that

Josh Fonger: 00:17:13

innovation needs to always be happening.

Josh Fonger: 00:17:16

But once you have a structure or you have a recipe for how each

Josh Fonger: 00:17:18

thing is done, you can actually.

Josh Fonger: 00:17:21

Add those innovations to the recipe and run tests, run a B tests,

Josh Fonger: 00:17:26

just run a parallel system just to see which one works better.

Josh Fonger: 00:17:29

And, instead of just following your gut, which maybe works okay with a

Josh Fonger: 00:17:33

very small company, you actually have some real data and you'll be able

Josh Fonger: 00:17:37

to look back and see how you did it.

Josh Fonger: 00:17:39

And then make adjustments from there.

Tim Winders: 00:17:41

So is it, this is something I ask myself and there may not be an

Tim Winders: 00:17:46

answer for this, but I'm asked your thoughts or opinions or your, the

Tim Winders: 00:17:50

data that you've gotten just from all the people that you've worked with,

Tim Winders: 00:17:54

is it easier to get a visionary?

Tim Winders: 00:17:59

To begin moving towards a system thinking type systems mindset, is it

Tim Winders: 00:18:07

easier to take someone who is more that technician practical, they've

Tim Winders: 00:18:10

got a lot of the systems thinking to get them to think big picture.

Tim Winders: 00:18:15

You mentioned it in that response.

Tim Winders: 00:18:16

You talked about some that you work with.

Tim Winders: 00:18:19

Have you noticed one or the other that is a little bit easier

Tim Winders: 00:18:22

and easier path to go down.

Josh Fonger: 00:18:26

Yes.

Josh Fonger: 00:18:27

yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:18:27

I would say just from my experience that the ones who are very much the day to

Josh Fonger: 00:18:31

day and the day to day how things work structure, once they are free from the

Josh Fonger: 00:18:37

stress of having to carry all those tasks on their shoulder, those burdens, they

Josh Fonger: 00:18:43

tend to open up and have more visions than they realized and more possibilities.

Josh Fonger: 00:18:47

They just never given themselves a chance to dream and think because they're

Josh Fonger: 00:18:51

so worried about the next client, the next phone call, the next delivery.

Josh Fonger: 00:18:55

That once they, they have that stress removed, they become more

Josh Fonger: 00:19:00

visionary than they ever have been.

Josh Fonger: 00:19:01

And so that, that is a much easier route to go with the ones who are already,

Josh Fonger: 00:19:06

they're ingrained in being visionaries.

Josh Fonger: 00:19:08

I just want them to agree with the philosophy.

Josh Fonger: 00:19:10

I want them to support and lead the philosophy.

Josh Fonger: 00:19:13

I want them to be a cheerleader.

Josh Fonger: 00:19:15

And encourage the philosophy, but I'm not asking them to now really work on

Josh Fonger: 00:19:20

the structure because I know that, it hasn't worked very well in the past.

Josh Fonger: 00:19:24

And so if I can just get them to not screw up the structure that's being

Josh Fonger: 00:19:28

built, and stay out of the way, that tends to be the best with implementations.

Tim Winders: 00:19:32

So listen, here's what we really need you to do.

Tim Winders: 00:19:34

We need you to just get out of the way, and telling a leader or a

Tim Winders: 00:19:39

founder or someone in an organization that probably needs to be done much

Tim Winders: 00:19:44

more delicately than I just did it.

Tim Winders: 00:19:46

I think you did it in a better way there.

Tim Winders: 00:19:48

but in reality though, that is, The case and in and they probably know that but

Tim Winders: 00:19:54

actually doing it I mean, that's one of the things I work with is just changing

Tim Winders: 00:19:59

the thinking and the thought process of a lot of leadership and leadership teams,

Tim Winders: 00:20:04

which leads me into This term that's in the book and I think it's something

Tim Winders: 00:20:08

that's very important to what you do and it's systems mindset or systems

Tim Winders: 00:20:12

thinking i'm I think it's correct me if i've got the term wrong, but talk a

Tim Winders: 00:20:17

little bit about that why it's a bit of a challenge why some people do it well

Tim Winders: 00:20:24

and some people are Moving into it and why it's important for all of us that are

Tim Winders: 00:20:28

leading running, operating organizations

Josh Fonger: 00:20:32

Yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:20:32

And so Sam Carpenter coined the term and he's written a book, the system's mindset,

Josh Fonger: 00:20:36

which goes into it even further, the book work, the system is really the business

Josh Fonger: 00:20:40

application of the system's mindset.

Josh Fonger: 00:20:43

And, so Sam really describes it as, an average person is just going to

Josh Fonger: 00:20:47

walk in the street and they're going to respond to the site sounds events,

Josh Fonger: 00:20:51

things that are actually happening.

Josh Fonger: 00:20:52

They respond to them.

Josh Fonger: 00:20:53

The system's mindset would say, elevate yourself above what's happening and

Josh Fonger: 00:20:59

look down and see the, how things translate through time and then examine

Josh Fonger: 00:21:06

and take apart the systems that produce the results that you're getting.

Josh Fonger: 00:21:10

And so if you're getting certain results in your health relationships,

Josh Fonger: 00:21:14

your business, instead of focusing on.

Josh Fonger: 00:21:17

And reacting to those results, instead, examine the separate systems and

Josh Fonger: 00:21:21

isolate them that produce those results.

Josh Fonger: 00:21:23

And so it's about, seeing That, there was a logical progression of

Josh Fonger: 00:21:28

steps that led you to where you are.

Josh Fonger: 00:21:30

And if you instead worked on those systems, you would

Josh Fonger: 00:21:33

be at a different result.

Josh Fonger: 00:21:35

And so a lot of what we do is help isolate those separate systems,

Josh Fonger: 00:21:40

work on them, and then let the results take care of themselves.

Tim Winders: 00:21:45

And so one of the things when I was reading through the book and reading

Tim Winders: 00:21:51

the early sections of it, I kept thinking about, I kept looking at myself personally

Tim Winders: 00:21:56

when I was looking at it truthfully.

Tim Winders: 00:21:57

I wasn't really thinking organizational, I was thinking personal and I was thinking

Tim Winders: 00:22:03

about how I am at times maniacal about habit creation, about forming habits.

Tim Winders: 00:22:12

And then I can be a little bit overly habit forming, but very similar to what

Tim Winders: 00:22:19

you're saying, we have systems that are all around us where we're part of them.

Tim Winders: 00:22:25

And I guess maybe my question related to this is how do we recognize,

Tim Winders: 00:22:31

and maybe this is big picture, not just organizationally right now.

Tim Winders: 00:22:34

So however you want to respond is fine.

Tim Winders: 00:22:37

How do we recognize the systems?

Tim Winders: 00:22:40

that are working well for us and the ones that might be inhibiting, success.

Tim Winders: 00:22:47

And then my follow up question is going to be some related

Tim Winders: 00:22:50

to success and defining that.

Tim Winders: 00:22:52

we'll go down that path in just a second, but how do we know what's working

Tim Winders: 00:22:56

for us and what's working against us?

Josh Fonger: 00:22:59

Yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:00

Broad question.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:01

And I think that maybe this is your second question, but I think

Josh Fonger: 00:23:05

without knowing what the bullseye is.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:08

You don't know, you don't know whether it's working for you or not, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:12

You could step on the scale in the morning and say, I don't know, 190 pounds.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:17

I don't know.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:17

Is that working for you or not?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:20

Is that the goal?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:21

Or is that not the goal?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:22

if you're five foot two, maybe that's not the goal, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:25

If you're six foot six, maybe that is the goal.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:27

And I think that you do need to actually set a standard and that is a big part

Josh Fonger: 00:23:32

of the initial structure that we do want the visionary involved with is actually

Josh Fonger: 00:23:36

saying, Hey, what does success look like?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:38

What is the path of success?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:39

What does it look like?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:41

We help owners with a one page document called a strategic objective.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:44

And so if you have that, then at least, are your systems getting you there

Josh Fonger: 00:23:49

or are they not getting you there?

Josh Fonger: 00:23:50

And this can be for your personal life and you can divide up your personal

Josh Fonger: 00:23:53

life in terms of your, your, maybe your health or your finances or your family.

Josh Fonger: 00:23:57

And then you would say, gosh, is that we're educating our kids

Josh Fonger: 00:24:00

or the way we're eating or the way we're, whatever we're doing.

Josh Fonger: 00:24:03

Is it taking us to this goal?

Josh Fonger: 00:24:06

And I think without that, then it's very.

Josh Fonger: 00:24:11

Frustrating to work on your systems because you don't even

Josh Fonger: 00:24:13

know are they helping us get there or not because it's undefined.

Josh Fonger: 00:24:17

I think that having some definitions, that can be working definitions, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:24:20

you can adjust them, but at least starting with the definition, it's going

Josh Fonger: 00:24:24

to ultimately improve your systems.

Tim Winders: 00:24:27

That's good.

Tim Winders: 00:24:28

So one of our foundational, I guess our tagline here is

Tim Winders: 00:24:32

the term redefining success.

Tim Winders: 00:24:35

And a lot of what we've done here at Seek Go Create is we've interacted with

Tim Winders: 00:24:40

people that have gone through catalytic events that have caused change, or

Tim Winders: 00:24:43

they've made some kind of decision to identify what success means to them and

Tim Winders: 00:24:48

then go down that path or that process.

Tim Winders: 00:24:50

And so I'm curious when people come to you.

Tim Winders: 00:24:57

and say, we need to do something differently, would you say it is

Tim Winders: 00:25:04

from a place of pain, often, or is it a continuous improvement to use an

Tim Winders: 00:25:11

engineering term, or, and it could be a spectrum I'm sure it's a lot of it.

Tim Winders: 00:25:15

The reason why is that I've come to.

Tim Winders: 00:25:17

To these theories of, in all these interviews and all this

Tim Winders: 00:25:20

that I've done, that there are two ways that people make change.

Tim Winders: 00:25:24

One is, they make a decision, they go through the process, they bring

Tim Winders: 00:25:28

people in like you, they put systems in place, and they make changes.

Tim Winders: 00:25:32

Or, They go through some catalytic event, some health challenge, something happens

Tim Winders: 00:25:40

to a family member or a head of their team or something like that, that basically

Tim Winders: 00:25:45

hits them in the head, and they say, you know what, I need to make a change.

Tim Winders: 00:25:51

You don't have to mention any names or anything, but how do people

Tim Winders: 00:25:54

come to you in that spectrum?

Tim Winders: 00:25:57

Does that make sense?

Tim Winders: 00:25:58

Did I ask that well?

Josh Fonger: 00:26:00

Yeah, usually it's the catalytic event.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:03

and

Tim Winders: 00:26:03

theory is holding up.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:05

not always.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:06

I would say when it's business owners, they, it's almost

Josh Fonger: 00:26:09

always a catalytic event.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:09

When it's CEOs, then it's more like we developed in our plan that

Josh Fonger: 00:26:14

this would be part of it to have a culture of continuous improvement.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:18

And therefore, it's Q3 and we're going to do it so that's that wing, but most of

Josh Fonger: 00:26:23

the time it's an event, And it's pain and probably three or four clients I've worked

Josh Fonger: 00:26:28

with, someone died in their business.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:31

And then what do you know?

Josh Fonger: 00:26:31

I get called a week later.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:32

They might've been on our email list for seven years, wait, now we

Josh Fonger: 00:26:36

need to work with you, they always knew they needed to work on this and

Josh Fonger: 00:26:40

they always wanted to work on this.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:41

But then it became very real because.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:43

Hey, no one knows how, what that person did.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:45

they're grieving the person who passed away, but we have no

Josh Fonger: 00:26:48

idea how they did what they did.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:50

And we're having some major issues immediately.

Josh Fonger: 00:26:52

We can't keep running a business like that.

Tim Winders: 00:26:56

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:26:57

and I hate that because I'm well aware of some, I'll call them proactive

Tim Winders: 00:27:05

adjustments, changes that I needed to make in some companies, businesses we had.

Tim Winders: 00:27:10

But yet it was a catalytic event that really forced a great deal of change.

Tim Winders: 00:27:14

the lifestyle we lead now, being travelers, we probably

Tim Winders: 00:27:18

never would have done it.

Tim Winders: 00:27:19

We love it.

Tim Winders: 00:27:20

We enjoy it.

Tim Winders: 00:27:20

It's very nourishing to our soul and we believe it's the

Tim Winders: 00:27:23

path God has us on right now.

Tim Winders: 00:27:26

And we're not exactly sure why, like you mentioned, you're not sure why God

Tim Winders: 00:27:29

has you in the place you're at, but we think we're being prepared for something.

Tim Winders: 00:27:33

but we don't believe we would have done that had we not been through

Tim Winders: 00:27:36

that catalytic type situation.

Tim Winders: 00:27:39

I'm just curious, Josh, I want us to get into some very specifics for the

Tim Winders: 00:27:43

leader that's listening in and may want to begin the process or start.

Tim Winders: 00:27:47

Thinking about systems and systems mindset.

Tim Winders: 00:27:50

And maybe you've got some tips or some ways they can get started and then how

Tim Winders: 00:27:54

they can connect with you, of course.

Tim Winders: 00:27:55

But I'm curious how you got into being a systems expert.

Tim Winders: 00:28:01

And, I love the term architect.

Tim Winders: 00:28:03

Cause I think I saw, was your undergrad, were you an architect?

Tim Winders: 00:28:05

Person.

Tim Winders: 00:28:06

So tell me a little bit about your journey and be prepared.

Tim Winders: 00:28:09

I'm going to ask you about a situation where you've had to

Tim Winders: 00:28:13

redefine some success in your life.

Tim Winders: 00:28:15

So how did you end up being the business systems architect?

Josh Fonger: 00:28:21

Yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:22

God's providence.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:23

Yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:24

No, I definitely, was not by choice.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:26

So I got a degree in architecture, then a master's in business.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:29

And I thought I was going to be in real estate.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:31

but then 2006 and seven happened and I could not find work anywhere.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:36

And, basically during my MBA program, I wrote a paper about why you should

Josh Fonger: 00:28:42

not hire business consultants.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:43

So I didn't think there was a lot of value in being a business consultant.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:46

I thought they were, a waste of money and kind of preyed on, clients.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:49

And my due to some family businesses that I heard growing up.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:55

They were anti business consultant, I'll put it that way.

Josh Fonger: 00:28:58

And, but that was the only job I could get was a business consultant.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:00

eventually that's what I had to do.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:02

And, during that time period, I think it's kind of God's humor

Josh Fonger: 00:29:05

to put me in that position.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:06

And, I just really enjoyed the work, had a lot of success with the work,

Josh Fonger: 00:29:10

and, was flying around the country, helping small business owners.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:14

In this case, they were flooring stores.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:15

Carpet Ones and Flooring Americas, Different state all the time, helping

Josh Fonger: 00:29:19

them with their inside sales and outside sales and their forecasting

Josh Fonger: 00:29:22

and their culture and their budget and helping them through bankruptcy and

Josh Fonger: 00:29:25

you name it, just working with these companies inside sales, outside sales.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:28

And then, I would, I realized that six months or a year later when I

Josh Fonger: 00:29:33

was talking to them, following up the same problems that I thought

Josh Fonger: 00:29:37

I solved were coming back again.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:40

And I thought, I thought we already fixed that and it kept happening to me and I

Josh Fonger: 00:29:46

was in Bend, Oregon, we lived there and I met somebody long story short, they

Josh Fonger: 00:29:51

passed the book, work the system to me.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:54

Maybe this will help you.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:55

And I read the book, met with Sam Carpenter.

Josh Fonger: 00:29:57

And then I came to realize that the piece that I was missing in all of

Josh Fonger: 00:30:01

my work is that I wasn't documenting the systems and the structure

Josh Fonger: 00:30:06

that I was changing the companies.

Josh Fonger: 00:30:08

It was more training is more working with the management is

Josh Fonger: 00:30:11

more working leader, but then.

Josh Fonger: 00:30:13

things dissolve over time, dilute, they don't stick.

Josh Fonger: 00:30:16

And I realized that I actually wanted my change to stick and then be built upon.

Josh Fonger: 00:30:20

It had to actually be documented into the systems.

Josh Fonger: 00:30:23

And so that was a piece I started using my consulting and then, Sam

Josh Fonger: 00:30:28

Carpenter and I became good friends.

Josh Fonger: 00:30:30

And then I just started working with him as a consultant and then.

Josh Fonger: 00:30:34

Here I am today.

Tim Winders: 00:30:36

Bend, Oregon, cool spot.

Tim Winders: 00:30:37

That was one of the places we spent about three months or so, in our

Tim Winders: 00:30:41

travels and Oregon's a neat place.

Tim Winders: 00:30:44

so a few things with that.

Tim Winders: 00:30:46

I don't know why, but when you mentioned that you proclaimed to the world, your

Tim Winders: 00:30:52

distaste for consultants and probably coaches or anybody else that kind

Tim Winders: 00:30:56

of, takes money from organizations.

Tim Winders: 00:30:59

I thought about the story of Joseph and the Bible and him

Tim Winders: 00:31:01

just boldly proclaiming to.

Tim Winders: 00:31:03

To his brothers.

Tim Winders: 00:31:04

I had a dream and y'all all bowed to me.

Tim Winders: 00:31:06

A little bit different story, but it's often that sometimes those

Tim Winders: 00:31:11

bold statements we make, they will come back to, humble us.

Tim Winders: 00:31:15

I don't know.

Tim Winders: 00:31:15

Is that the right term?

Josh Fonger: 00:31:18

Yeah, definitely.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:19

that was the most humbling period of my life, at least financially

Josh Fonger: 00:31:22

and professionally because you get your MBA, you're making good

Josh Fonger: 00:31:25

money supporting your family.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:26

And we were in Phoenix time.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:28

And then to lose it all to have the most that you ever had, lose your

Josh Fonger: 00:31:33

house, lose your car, lose everything.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:34

And, be living in your In inlaws condo.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:38

And you're like, huh, it didn't exactly work out the way I thought

Josh Fonger: 00:31:41

it would after I got my MBA, like you just, it's we're gonna start over.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:44

And, at that point you, you realize that your identity, really, if you're a

Josh Fonger: 00:31:50

Christian is in Christ and that, that.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:52

Is the foundation of which you want to build everything off of anyways.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:55

And so regardless of what happens to you professionally, it really matters.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:58

You can't lose.

Josh Fonger: 00:31:59

And I think that, was the necessary shift I needed before

Josh Fonger: 00:32:03

making the new career change.

Tim Winders: 00:32:05

the way I've said it before for me is that I am very confident

Tim Winders: 00:32:11

that God did not bring the downturn or the whatever they call it now

Tim Winders: 00:32:14

from 2008 just to get my attention.

Tim Winders: 00:32:18

But when it occurred, he took full advantage of it to get my attention.

Tim Winders: 00:32:23

It sounds like that period was a real redefining of success, what

Tim Winders: 00:32:28

it means to you had some things that were mapped out for you.

Tim Winders: 00:32:31

What'd you learn about yourself then?

Tim Winders: 00:32:32

Give us a.

Tim Winders: 00:32:33

Yeah.

Tim Winders: 00:32:33

thing or two that, cause I'm sure you have reflected on it.

Tim Winders: 00:32:36

I can guarantee you've reflected on it.

Tim Winders: 00:32:39

I have countless others have to, what did you learn about yourself during that time?

Josh Fonger: 00:32:45

I haven't reflected on that much, at least not recently,

Josh Fonger: 00:32:47

or it's a 2023, but what I reflected on was that the things that

Josh Fonger: 00:32:51

matter, it can't be taken from you.

Josh Fonger: 00:32:53

So that kind of gave me some resilience there.

Josh Fonger: 00:32:56

And also that, God can use all things that he's sovereign.

Josh Fonger: 00:32:59

So I got to learn more about God's sovereignty and, his provision,

Josh Fonger: 00:33:04

money came from places that were not expected, And, support came

Josh Fonger: 00:33:08

from places that weren't expected.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:09

And it gave me more confidence in the fact that God will provide and

Josh Fonger: 00:33:14

that, I don't have to be afraid of the material, cause he knows what we

Josh Fonger: 00:33:19

need before we even know we need it.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:21

And.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:22

Also, just that, that starting the day with prayer is going to be

Josh Fonger: 00:33:28

more important than working hard.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:31

there's plenty of people who are in my position in the real estate industry who

Josh Fonger: 00:33:34

just thought they could work themselves back into a job that wasn't there.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:38

And the job I ended up getting was based on a connection that I made

Josh Fonger: 00:33:42

the week after I got laid off.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:44

It just took about nine months to materialize.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:47

So really if I could have made that one phone call.

Josh Fonger: 00:33:50

And, no effort towards finding a job and it was waiting nine months that

Josh Fonger: 00:33:54

would have been the same result, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:33:56

So all of that toil, all of that stress, all of that, need to find a job, need

Josh Fonger: 00:34:00

to, provide for my family, was stressed that I was putting on myself because of

Josh Fonger: 00:34:06

my lack of understanding of the future.

Josh Fonger: 00:34:09

And, so I was just thankful that I had friends around me who,

Josh Fonger: 00:34:12

prayed for me, encouraged me.

Josh Fonger: 00:34:14

To not, be stressed and not think that I'm going to, take charge of control

Josh Fonger: 00:34:18

my future because really, I could have spent that one phone call and waited nine

Josh Fonger: 00:34:22

months and been in the exact same spot.

Tim Winders: 00:34:24

The, fascinating thing for me was how I kept.

Tim Winders: 00:34:29

Projecting these timing things.

Tim Winders: 00:34:32

I had a bill to pay house port house payment or something.

Tim Winders: 00:34:35

And so I would tell God, I've got to have blank by whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:34:40

And that date would come and go.

Tim Winders: 00:34:43

And my realization was maybe.

Tim Winders: 00:34:46

His timeframes are different than mine, and I'm not in any way saying,

Tim Winders: 00:34:50

don't pay your bills or anything.

Tim Winders: 00:34:51

That's not what I'm saying.

Tim Winders: 00:34:52

I'm actually saying that I think that his timeframes are different than ours.

Tim Winders: 00:34:56

and so I, that was something that was just so interesting to me.

Tim Winders: 00:35:02

But the thing that you said earlier, see, this is what jumped at me.

Tim Winders: 00:35:05

During that, when you were talking about that, you did say that you were living

Tim Winders: 00:35:11

in, I think, in laws or relatives condo.

Tim Winders: 00:35:14

and I think we initially make statements like that as if they were a negative.

Tim Winders: 00:35:19

And I'm wondering if God considers that a positive.

Tim Winders: 00:35:22

You were actually living in homes that you're not paying for, you're

Tim Winders: 00:35:25

being taken care of, there's an extra home there that someone has, I

Tim Winders: 00:35:28

guess a condo or something like that.

Tim Winders: 00:35:30

And I wonder if we have some type of, at times, I know I did.

Tim Winders: 00:35:35

Pride or something like that makes those things not as appealing the reason I

Tim Winders: 00:35:39

bring it up you may not be aware of this But when we first moved into our what we

Tim Winders: 00:35:43

call nomad stage, which some people would call it homeless, but we called it nomad

Tim Winders: 00:35:48

because it just sounded better more like sarah and abraham or something like that.

Tim Winders: 00:35:51

I don't know But it sounds more biblical, doesn't it?

Tim Winders: 00:35:56

Is that, Josh, is what the fascinating thing was, we started house sitting,

Tim Winders: 00:36:02

so we were living in houses that we did not pay for, we did not have mortgage

Tim Winders: 00:36:08

payments on, they were stocked with food, and I enjoyed a glass of wine every

Tim Winders: 00:36:13

once in a while, and some wine cellar, and sometimes they would hand us keys

Tim Winders: 00:36:17

to the car when we were in Australia, New Zealand, it was just like, Maybe

Tim Winders: 00:36:22

I need to rethink what success means.

Tim Winders: 00:36:24

So that kind of helped me redefine it.

Tim Winders: 00:36:27

Now, my guess is there was a humility that, that probably if it didn't creep

Tim Winders: 00:36:35

in, it barged in to Josh, to your soul, and it probably helps you with what

Tim Winders: 00:36:41

you do now, would that be accurate?

Josh Fonger: 00:36:45

Yeah, definitely.

Josh Fonger: 00:36:46

I think that's essential and that humility is more.

Josh Fonger: 00:36:51

I guess more relevant now, after going through and being a consultant during

Josh Fonger: 00:36:55

COVID is just the realization, no matter what strategy advice plan that you're

Josh Fonger: 00:37:02

coming up with, you don't know the future.

Josh Fonger: 00:37:04

And, and then maybe really realized that when I'm working with clients,

Josh Fonger: 00:37:07

they're giving me 1%, like a small sliver of what's really going on in

Josh Fonger: 00:37:11

the organization during our sessions.

Josh Fonger: 00:37:13

And so in order for me to actually accurately assess the situation

Josh Fonger: 00:37:18

guidance and help them along their way.

Josh Fonger: 00:37:21

I'm gonna need to have wisdom beyond myself.

Josh Fonger: 00:37:23

I'm gonna need to have, the ability to, encourage them when

Josh Fonger: 00:37:26

they need it, tell them to go get away when they need to hear it.

Josh Fonger: 00:37:29

And So I think that just through COVID and through that, realizing that if

Josh Fonger: 00:37:35

I'm going to really be useful and successful, it can't be on my own

Josh Fonger: 00:37:40

strength and knowledge and wisdom is going to need to come from somewhere else.

Josh Fonger: 00:37:44

And so that's really what, It's prompted me to pray more and read less books,

Josh Fonger: 00:37:49

pray more and listen to less podcasts, even if there's a great ones is that

Josh Fonger: 00:37:53

I, my early, my career when I was in my twenties, I thought if I just read enough

Josh Fonger: 00:37:57

books, listen to podcasts, study enough, I would be able to help these companies.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:01

And to some degree that, that knowledge is, it's helpful, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:38:05

But, ultimately.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:07

The kind of the key to my success ultimately is not

Josh Fonger: 00:38:11

going to be in those books.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:12

It's going to be in, in my community with God, in my praying for my clients

Josh Fonger: 00:38:16

and am I giving them the question or the answer, the direction that they actually

Josh Fonger: 00:38:19

need to hear today in this moment.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:22

And that's something that I knew that was beyond me.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:27

And so I think that.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:28

That really helped, that really helped, to have some of those things happen to

Josh Fonger: 00:38:32

realize, I used to, one more aside, I used to do a lot of projection, a lot of

Josh Fonger: 00:38:36

forecasts, people would want me to analyze their finances and project forward and.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:41

They were always so confident in the numbers I was producing.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:43

I said, your chance of hitting any of these numbers is basically zero.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:46

we just took, we took the last couple of years and we put a few algorithms in

Josh Fonger: 00:38:50

this net, all of these are conjecture.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:53

And so we can't just pretend like this is going to happen.

Josh Fonger: 00:38:56

Like we have some goals now, but, I've done enough of these to know

Josh Fonger: 00:38:59

that it never happens like that.

Josh Fonger: 00:39:01

and so I don't know, I think that's helped me be more real in the day to day

Josh Fonger: 00:39:06

with the clients I work with as opposed to, think that, that I know the future.

Tim Winders: 00:39:12

I know I'm, I think I'm getting to an age, a place, I don't know

Tim Winders: 00:39:16

if that's the right term to piggyback on what you just said, where I'm

Tim Winders: 00:39:20

getting less confident in the future.

Tim Winders: 00:39:24

And I used to be very, I used to be very confident when I would say things

Tim Winders: 00:39:31

about, especially the near future, do this, this happens, this happens by, and

Tim Winders: 00:39:35

I do think there's some degree of that.

Tim Winders: 00:39:36

And I'm not discounting that at all, but I'm getting more confident in eternity.

Tim Winders: 00:39:43

And I think I used to be more confident in the near future than I actually

Tim Winders: 00:39:48

was in eternity and I was saved.

Tim Winders: 00:39:50

I'm Christian.

Tim Winders: 00:39:50

I'm not saying anything, but I think my control, my, the way I was wired,

Tim Winders: 00:39:55

I really wanted to be able to know what was going to be happening in the

Tim Winders: 00:39:58

very near or not too distant future.

Tim Winders: 00:40:01

And what you just said really affirmed that.

Tim Winders: 00:40:04

so that was good.

Tim Winders: 00:40:05

What are some of the.

Tim Winders: 00:40:08

Let's shift a little bit here in the time we've got, because we've got

Tim Winders: 00:40:11

people listening in and I'd love for us to give maybe some practical things

Tim Winders: 00:40:16

and I know getting the book is helpful because there's a lot of good stuff in

Tim Winders: 00:40:19

here, but let's just say that someone has Been somewhat convinced that they

Tim Winders: 00:40:25

need more systems in their family, in their church, in their company or in

Tim Winders: 00:40:33

their life, whatever, what are just some maybe big picture tips to get started?

Tim Winders: 00:40:38

And we know that people can work with you, but just give us some things

Tim Winders: 00:40:41

that people need to begin if they've made, if they're leaning that way.

Josh Fonger: 00:40:46

I think if I wanted to actually work, I would say start with

Josh Fonger: 00:40:50

the simplest system you can think of and one that is happening every day.

Josh Fonger: 00:40:55

And one example I like to share is with the church I was working with that, and

Josh Fonger: 00:40:59

they had over a thousand volunteers at this particular church they could use.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:03

And at the time I was working with the head of the marketing

Josh Fonger: 00:41:05

department and, we were talking about the systems in his department.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:10

He was putting grommets in a vinyl sign, one of these, events that was

Josh Fonger: 00:41:15

coming up and grommets are those little metal circles that you put in vinyl

Josh Fonger: 00:41:18

signs to make sure they don't tear.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:21

And, you look very busy.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:22

And I said, are you the only one at this church who can do that?

Josh Fonger: 00:41:27

And he's like, well, you know, I do it a certain way and there's, I'm

Josh Fonger: 00:41:29

not sure if anyone will do it right.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:31

And, the event's tomorrow and you got to get it done.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:33

And I said, don't you guys have a thousand volunteers?

Josh Fonger: 00:41:36

He was like, yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:37

I said, so we pull out his phone, hit record.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:40

I said, now teach.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:42

Everyone, how to put a drama in a vinyl sign, cause I'm sure that

Josh Fonger: 00:41:46

my, my 14 year old son can do this.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:48

And so then he talked and narrated how he did it and I said,

Josh Fonger: 00:41:51

okay, now never do that again.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:54

Give that to someone who doesn't cost the church any money.

Josh Fonger: 00:41:57

And so the whole point is that if you just start with the

Josh Fonger: 00:42:00

work you're currently doing.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:02

You can document in this case, it was over the video, audio, screen capture,

Josh Fonger: 00:42:07

type of a checklist, handwritten note.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:09

There are ways to document what you're doing now.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:13

And when you do that, you're going to realize that you now have a standard

Josh Fonger: 00:42:17

or what good looks like, and you have the ability to transfer the knowledge

Josh Fonger: 00:42:20

to someone else for them to do it for you, and for them to innovate and do

Josh Fonger: 00:42:24

what you do even better and faster.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:26

And Try not to set some big lofty strategy.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:29

Like you're going to, change your organization and document foreigner

Josh Fonger: 00:42:32

procedures the next month, because I've seen those fail enough

Josh Fonger: 00:42:35

times to not even recommend that.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:37

I'd rather have them start with something that they are already doing

Josh Fonger: 00:42:41

and realize, is there a better way?

Josh Fonger: 00:42:44

And oftentimes for leaders, that better way is.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:47

Them not doing it at all, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:42:49

Because they have to be freed up to expand their organization.

Josh Fonger: 00:42:53

And so I always try to first start with leaders, or this case, parents, if you

Josh Fonger: 00:42:58

talk about family things, but what are things you're doing every day or every

Josh Fonger: 00:43:02

week that actually someone else could do if they just knew how to do it.

Josh Fonger: 00:43:06

And let's see if we can get those systems in place and then work towards giving the

Josh Fonger: 00:43:11

leaders more time to grow and giving the people beneath them more ability to help.

Tim Winders: 00:43:17

One of the things, and my family, if any of them were here,

Tim Winders: 00:43:21

they would either laugh or nod or grimace if they heard me say this.

Tim Winders: 00:43:26

One of the things I would always say was if there's something that we do

Tim Winders: 00:43:29

more than once, we need to consider systematizing it, offloading it,

Tim Winders: 00:43:34

delegating it, or something like that.

Tim Winders: 00:43:35

This was within our family, too, by the way, which we had our own

Tim Winders: 00:43:38

businesses and things like that.

Tim Winders: 00:43:40

But the question I was going to ask is why?

Tim Winders: 00:43:45

Do people this gets back a little bit back to the mindset but in the

Tim Winders: 00:43:48

practical thing too It keeps people from making that leap why was We'll call

Tim Winders: 00:43:55

him joe leader Doing those grommets.

Tim Winders: 00:43:58

I mean listen, I don't know a lot about putting grommets in things But

Tim Winders: 00:44:03

I do not think it requires an advanced grommets And why do people do that?

Tim Winders: 00:44:10

Why is it, especially with a thousand volunteers and we know the way

Tim Winders: 00:44:15

church world works or even employee world is that, people have a desire

Tim Winders: 00:44:20

to be a part of what's going on.

Tim Winders: 00:44:23

So what's the psychology behind why Joe Leader wouldn't let

Tim Winders: 00:44:28

someone else do that until the consultant told him he needed to.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:34

yeah, there's a couple triggers that happen.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:37

One is, they are used to doing it.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:39

They're comfortable doing it.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:40

They've done it a lot of times before.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:42

And so I think that part of it is just a comfort level of

Josh Fonger: 00:44:44

I've always done it before.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:45

And so change would be something different.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:48

And that's hard.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:49

That's just the human nature.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:50

The next thing is, perfectionism as in they know the perfect way.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:55

And if they learn that if they give it to someone else, they're

Josh Fonger: 00:44:57

going to do it imperfectly.

Josh Fonger: 00:44:59

Because they haven't taught them, train them or systemize it.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:01

They just handed it off and the results haven't been very good.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:04

next reason is that there's a tyranny of the urgent where, because leaders

Josh Fonger: 00:45:09

are not thinking weeks and months ahead, they're thinking what needs to be done

Josh Fonger: 00:45:13

tomorrow for this event, they haven't utilized the resources that they have.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:18

and therefore.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:19

Of course they've got to do it.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:20

there's no volunteers here.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:21

I got to do it.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:22

It's tomorrow.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:23

And so I think that, that, consistent culture of just reacting to today

Josh Fonger: 00:45:29

doesn't allow them to utilize the resources that they have.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:32

And so they're not thinking broad enough about it.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:35

And and then also, leadership has told them to do the work.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:41

And so they do it.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:42

As opposed to leadership saying we want you to develop a system to get this work

Josh Fonger: 00:45:46

done more effectively doesn't mean you have to do it, but we do need the results.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:50

And so they haven't really thought about it differently.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:53

So they do need a systems mindset and they do need a leader that will,

Josh Fonger: 00:45:57

encourage them along that path.

Josh Fonger: 00:45:59

So there's a lot of variables, but, I do see that my.

Josh Fonger: 00:46:04

My straight A students, the valedictorians usually have the hardest

Josh Fonger: 00:46:07

time with the delegation because they just, they'd like to see the work

Josh Fonger: 00:46:11

perfect and have their name on it.

Josh Fonger: 00:46:13

And so those are the ones that tend to have a hard time with delegation.

Tim Winders: 00:46:16

I love the thought of that perfectionism.

Tim Winders: 00:46:18

I see that also, I see it more in others and I also think when you have a spiritual

Tim Winders: 00:46:25

either a leader who has a spiritual foundation or in a spiritual organization,

Tim Winders: 00:46:30

we'll call it, some type of that.

Tim Winders: 00:46:32

There's also this sacrificial component that comes in people.

Tim Winders: 00:46:37

People believe and I'm going to exaggerate a little bit with this statement.

Tim Winders: 00:46:41

I'm doing this for God.

Tim Winders: 00:46:42

God's going to love me more because I am hate to pick on the grommet guy.

Tim Winders: 00:46:48

I'm putting these grommets in.

Tim Winders: 00:46:50

And so this is.

Tim Winders: 00:46:51

Positioning me for the afterlife better.

Tim Winders: 00:46:54

again, a lot of highly exaggerative statements there, sometimes the

Tim Winders: 00:46:59

spiritual can help and then sometimes it can, and can be damaging there.

Tim Winders: 00:47:04

Let's keep going though.

Tim Winders: 00:47:06

did you wanna respond to that at

Josh Fonger: 00:47:07

I, yeah, so yeah, the nonprofits I work with and the churches

Josh Fonger: 00:47:11

I worked with, that is a very real thing.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:13

And burnout's a very real thing and they overwork way beyond what they need to.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:18

And, but yet they, complain about it and the results are not great because

Josh Fonger: 00:47:22

they are overworked and they don't.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:24

Understand that, that they're bearing too much of the burden themselves.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:28

So that, that's extremely common.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:30

And, I haven't, maybe you've thought about it more than I have, but

Josh Fonger: 00:47:34

that's just for profit businesses.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:36

it's five o'clock.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:37

They're gone.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:38

they're not like, I'll stay late to serve the kingdom.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:41

No, they're clicking, they're checking out.

Josh Fonger: 00:47:43

So it's very different.

Tim Winders: 00:47:45

or, Alright, so I'll call it, Joe leader that was doing the grommets.

Tim Winders: 00:47:50

He comes to the realization that this needs to be done, and maybe in the time

Tim Winders: 00:47:55

we've got another, time for a tip or two.

Tim Winders: 00:47:57

so they are beginning moving in that direction, and they're starting

Tim Winders: 00:48:00

with those simple, small, something to get some systems in place.

Tim Winders: 00:48:06

What are some of the next steps?

Tim Winders: 00:48:07

What are some of the hurdles or something?

Tim Winders: 00:48:09

just give us something practical here as we begin to wrap up that might be helpful

Tim Winders: 00:48:14

for someone listening in and they've been listening to our conversation.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:17

So instead of going big picture, I always

Josh Fonger: 00:48:19

ask people to get granular.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:22

What are all the things that you do throughout the entire day?

Josh Fonger: 00:48:25

this can be from the second you wake up to the second you

Josh Fonger: 00:48:28

go to bed and isolate those.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:30

And it's very tedious and not fun, but time track them.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:33

And you're going to realize that your day is made up of these discreet separate

Josh Fonger: 00:48:37

packets of stuff that you're doing, hopefully productive, hopefully useful.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:41

And the goal is to number one.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:44

Eliminate the ones that are not useful, not serving you, not

Josh Fonger: 00:48:47

taking you where you want to go.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:48

Usually that frees up some time.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:50

And the next goal is going to be taking the separate system in this

Josh Fonger: 00:48:53

case, putting comments in a sign and realizing, Hey, if I document the

Josh Fonger: 00:48:57

system, someone else could do it.

Josh Fonger: 00:48:59

I'm going to work on that system to make it so I can hand that off to someone else.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:04

And so if they work on those two things.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:08

That's going to give them a lot of time back.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:10

And then lastly, it's the systems that you're already doing every

Josh Fonger: 00:49:13

single day, that you have to do.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:15

And it's, can you do it better?

Josh Fonger: 00:49:17

Can you do it faster?

Josh Fonger: 00:49:18

I was working with this series of hearing aid centers and they do this.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:23

hearing assessment that they have all their new patients come in and do a

Josh Fonger: 00:49:26

hearing assessment takes 90 minutes.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:28

I just challenged them.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:29

I said, can it be done faster?

Josh Fonger: 00:49:31

Can it be done better?

Josh Fonger: 00:49:32

Can it be done at a higher quality?

Josh Fonger: 00:49:34

Can it be done at a higher close rate?

Josh Fonger: 00:49:35

Can it be done at a higher average transaction?

Josh Fonger: 00:49:38

And lo and behold, that can actually be done in 45 minutes,

Josh Fonger: 00:49:42

not an hour and a half.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:44

If they just took the time and they're doing these things every single day in

Josh Fonger: 00:49:47

nine locations to analyze the system and document it and script it out, they

Josh Fonger: 00:49:51

can actually get better and faster.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:53

But they were just so used to doing it the same way.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:56

Cause they've been doing it that way for 10 years.

Josh Fonger: 00:49:58

And so I think that first thing is make a list of all the things you do during

Josh Fonger: 00:50:02

the day, as tedious as that might be.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:05

And you're going to realize that once you look at the separate pieces that make up

Josh Fonger: 00:50:09

your life, there's better ways to do them.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:10

There's faster ways to do them.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:12

There's shorter ways, lower cost ways to use technology automation.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:15

And that's the fun stuff for me is being able to look at what people do

Josh Fonger: 00:50:20

and say, I know it's a better way.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:21

I know it was a faster way.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:23

I know it's a more impactful way.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:24

And.

Josh Fonger: 00:50:25

Oftentimes, they don't believe me at first because they say, I've been doing this a

Josh Fonger: 00:50:27

long time, but they're almost always is

Tim Winders: 00:50:31

one question I was going to ask, do you do time studies at all?

Tim Winders: 00:50:33

One of the things I used to do this more often now I don't do it as much as I'll

Tim Winders: 00:50:37

ask executive leader, someone to, block out and determine what they're doing every

Tim Winders: 00:50:43

15 or 30 minutes or something like that.

Tim Winders: 00:50:46

One of our challenges now though, is that we have these things.

Tim Winders: 00:50:51

That are consuming so much and people think they've got no time and all of

Tim Winders: 00:50:56

that, but do you do some time studies at all just to see, because sometimes people

Tim Winders: 00:51:00

fool themselves in what they think they're doing and what they're really doing.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:05

people definitely do that.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:06

Yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:06

so we do track time and we do analyze that.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:09

one thing that my wife turned me on to and then a client as

Josh Fonger: 00:51:12

well as, having a light phone.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:13

So hence.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:15

I don't think I've checked the news in over two years, or social media.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:18

you mentioned something that might be on my LinkedIn profile.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:21

I wouldn't know.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:22

I haven't been there.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:22

and it's been part of my concerted effort to get back as much of my

Josh Fonger: 00:51:29

mental space as possible so that I can truly be effective and efficient.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:36

In the roles that I have as, a business consultant and as a father and as a

Josh Fonger: 00:51:43

husband and just do that well before I dilute myself because I spent enough

Josh Fonger: 00:51:47

years diluting myself into so many other paths, just really trying to

Josh Fonger: 00:51:53

stay focused on those and then with.

Josh Fonger: 00:51:56

with a stronger core, dapple in other areas as it makes strategic

Josh Fonger: 00:52:00

sense, like this right here.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:01

and so I, I do think that, when people are being honest with me, which most people

Josh Fonger: 00:52:05

are not 100% honest, there's a lot of waste of time and a lot of frenetic time,

Josh Fonger: 00:52:10

a lot of checking this, watching that, consuming this, reading this, and it's

Josh Fonger: 00:52:15

all of those packets of information that you could have used for rest or reflection

Josh Fonger: 00:52:21

or, community building, relationship building, management time that instead

Josh Fonger: 00:52:26

was consumed with, candy, right?

Josh Fonger: 00:52:27

Digital candy, and it's not making you healthy.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:30

It's not making you think better.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:31

And, in the information age that we're in, maybe 20 years

Josh Fonger: 00:52:35

ago, it might not be the case.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:36

But now the issues that the leaders I work with.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:39

Is not, they don't have the information.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:42

They have way too much information.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:44

It is, it's just, they're not implementing the right information right now.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:50

And one person said, Josh, why did it cost so much?

Josh Fonger: 00:52:54

And I said, it's not because.

Josh Fonger: 00:52:56

Of, you're not going to get me to expound the last 500 books I've read

Josh Fonger: 00:53:00

or podcast or all I'm going to be doing during our sessions is really just

Josh Fonger: 00:53:03

hopefully telling you exactly what you need to hear the one idea or the one

Josh Fonger: 00:53:08

question that you need to hear right now to help you fix your business.

Josh Fonger: 00:53:12

In this case, she has a nonprofit, to expand and that's where the value

Josh Fonger: 00:53:18

is me being able to discern what it is that you need to hear and what

Josh Fonger: 00:53:21

systems you have to work on that.

Josh Fonger: 00:53:22

That's the value.

Josh Fonger: 00:53:23

Not in volume of ideas, but on the idea and the way to implement

Josh Fonger: 00:53:29

the one idea that's going to take you the next step further.

Josh Fonger: 00:53:31

And so I think that there's, there's a, there's the lie of, knowledge

Josh Fonger: 00:53:36

is power, but, What does it say?

Josh Fonger: 00:53:38

I was his knowledge puffs up, but, love builds up.

Josh Fonger: 00:53:41

And ultimately we need people to apply, exactly what they

Josh Fonger: 00:53:48

need in their circumstances and nothing more and nothing less.

Josh Fonger: 00:53:51

And, I really try to help people move towards that direction.

Tim Winders: 00:53:54

And I think there's so much that you do that probably

Tim Winders: 00:53:57

helps people gain clarity and.

Tim Winders: 00:54:01

Create.

Tim Winders: 00:54:01

I heard someone, it was on one of the interviews I did, they said

Tim Winders: 00:54:04

that most, all of us really in today's world need more white space.

Tim Winders: 00:54:09

We need less stuff consuming us.

Tim Winders: 00:54:12

And I believe, and I think you would agree, it's so we

Tim Winders: 00:54:15

can hear the voice of God.

Tim Winders: 00:54:17

we need to be still, quiet, Sabbath, Shalom, rest, whatever.

Tim Winders: 00:54:22

Term.

Tim Winders: 00:54:22

we could use practical terms or spiritual terms.

Tim Winders: 00:54:24

We need to be still and quiet, and I believe part of the value of systems and

Tim Winders: 00:54:30

structure is it allows us to then be still and quiet so that we can hear from God.

Tim Winders: 00:54:36

Now, the thing I love about what you're doing, I think I get to do a little bit of

Tim Winders: 00:54:40

it too, is I think we're maybe one extra.

Tim Winders: 00:54:45

Opportunity for people to hear that when we're in the room or sitting at

Tim Winders: 00:54:50

the table or on the call with people and I can tell just from your heart,

Tim Winders: 00:54:54

your mindset, your approach that you bring that piece that shalom into

Tim Winders: 00:55:00

the room when you come there and I think that's, I think that's valuable.

Tim Winders: 00:55:04

with all of this, where would you want someone if they

Tim Winders: 00:55:08

wanted to connect with you?

Tim Winders: 00:55:10

It sounds like they're not going to jump on social media necessarily and find you.

Tim Winders: 00:55:15

But I know you've got to have some ways that people can get

Tim Winders: 00:55:18

in touch with you, find you.

Tim Winders: 00:55:20

and, we've got the book that we both have mentioned that I

Tim Winders: 00:55:23

think is a valuable resource.

Tim Winders: 00:55:24

What else do you want people to do if they need to connect with you?

Josh Fonger: 00:55:28

Yeah.

Josh Fonger: 00:55:28

I just tell them go to WTSenterprises.Com.

Josh Fonger: 00:55:32

So WTS stands for work the system, which is what, everything I do is based on.

Josh Fonger: 00:55:37

And of course you can get the summary of this book work the system.

Josh Fonger: 00:55:40

if you're a reader, get the book, if you want something faster, you can get the

Josh Fonger: 00:55:44

summary at my website, WTSenterprises.Com.

Josh Fonger: 00:55:48

And then for those who want to help, then that's what I do.

Josh Fonger: 00:55:51

the coaching and consulting.

Tim Winders: 00:55:52

And just to clarify, Sam wrote the book and, but he does

Tim Winders: 00:55:59

not do any of the consulting coaching and you are the sole, I don't know

Tim Winders: 00:56:04

if the right term is licensee or sole representative for this process.

Tim Winders: 00:56:09

Is that correct?

Tim Winders: 00:56:10

Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:12

yeah, definitely.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:12

So over the last 10 years, initially as an employee of Sam's and then,

Josh Fonger: 00:56:16

we branched out over the years to him, being the figurehead of

Josh Fonger: 00:56:20

me doing more of the consulting.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:21

And now I do all the consulting.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:23

he's enjoying, Owning his business, but only having to work a couple

Josh Fonger: 00:56:27

hours a month owning his business.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:29

So he's in his mid seventies.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:30

And we still do events together.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:31

We still talk every week.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:32

he's been a great mentor to me and a business advisor, but,

Josh Fonger: 00:56:35

yeah, I do all the consulting.

Tim Winders: 00:56:38

Excellent.

Tim Winders: 00:56:38

thank you.

Tim Winders: 00:56:38

We'll make sure we include where to find you and get the

Tim Winders: 00:56:41

book and all down in the notes.

Tim Winders: 00:56:43

Josh, we are seek, go create those three words.

Tim Winders: 00:56:46

I'm gonna let you pick one of those words over the other two as my last question.

Tim Winders: 00:56:50

And just why'd you pick the word seek, go or create?

Josh Fonger: 00:56:54

I, yeah, the one that, that rings the bell to me would be create.

Josh Fonger: 00:56:58

And that's because I guess that's what I do, Help people create

Josh Fonger: 00:57:02

systems or create order out of chaos.

Josh Fonger: 00:57:04

And I think that instead of.

Josh Fonger: 00:57:07

People living in maybe the chaotic or we'll just call it the frustrating

Josh Fonger: 00:57:14

world that we live in because it's a broken world, that they should take

Josh Fonger: 00:57:18

part in creating something better.

Josh Fonger: 00:57:19

And the best way is to analyze those separate systems and make them better.

Tim Winders: 00:57:24

Excellent.

Tim Winders: 00:57:25

Josh, thank you so much for this conversation.

Tim Winders: 00:57:28

I've enjoyed it.

Tim Winders: 00:57:29

And there were some directions we went in that I was not sure we would.

Tim Winders: 00:57:32

I'm thankful that we did.

Tim Winders: 00:57:34

I appreciate, all that you had to share.

Tim Winders: 00:57:36

And I know that people will understand and hopefully, follow up on the value of

Tim Winders: 00:57:42

systems, get the book, reach out to you.

Tim Winders: 00:57:44

I'll also ask.

Tim Winders: 00:57:46

If someone's listening in, share this episode.

Tim Winders: 00:57:48

I think there's been some value to just understanding the importance

Tim Winders: 00:57:51

of structure, creating order out of chaos and, and making it fit in this

Tim Winders: 00:57:56

odd and chaotic world that we're in.

Tim Winders: 00:57:59

So thanks again, Josh.

Tim Winders: 00:58:01

We have new episodes every Monday until next time, continue being

Tim Winders: 00:58:06

all that you were created to be.